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Trade for DeMar DeRozan...

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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#41 » by Drwho17 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:18 pm

I don't want Demar Derozan, he's as old as BG, and has actually played an extra year in the NBA, since they were in same draft class. Just RIDE it out this year.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#42 » by edmunder_prc » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Only trade I would consider.

Reggie Jackson
Galloway

For Derozan.


If Spurs want to contract dump then its ok.

Play Rose, Frazier/Bruce Brown as PG.

No picks unless Spurs are sending a 2nd rounder or two our way.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#43 » by Invictus88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:11 pm

Manocad wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:I've been gone a long time so I'm not up on what is and isn't the accepted term for rebuilding (retooling?) on the fly.

If you think DeRozan moves the needle enough then that's your opinion man. I don't

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No one is debating retooling vs rebuilding as though they’re two completely different strategies; that’s baloney. People talk in terms of “draft this guy, trade for that guy, etc.” I’ve never seen a single discussion where one person argued “We need to rebuild because X, Y, Z” and another person said, “I disagree; we need to retool because A, B and C.”

Derozan doesn’t move the needle much and there was PLENTY of talk about Toronto wanting to move him (“Is he really the future?” type of stuff) well before Kawhi ever factored into things.

Arguing “You should always try to make the team better” sounds great on paper, but we know what always trying to make every single move you think may improve the team little by little by little leads to—treadmill. A team that maybe has a bunch of talented players but probably is less than the sum of their parts due to not having played together much, is overpriced, has a lack of depth, and underachieves relative to its cost. And then, Just like this current Pistons team, you eventually run out of ways to improve the team further.


I think fundamentally people have differing views / lose focus of what the overall goal is when making personnel moves. As such the term "make the team better" ends up meaning completely different things.

Specifically for the Pistons, taking into account the market they are in, living conditions, appeal, etc:

A. If your overall goal is to improve the number of wins you get in the next season then you can do things like:
1. sacrifice draft picks to trade for veterans
2. spend more than market value to sign free agents
3. trade expirings to acquire aging free agents with extra years on the back end
4. draft prospects with more immediate NBA-ready skill sets but lesser ceilings

B. If your goal is to build the value of your assets and eventually transfer that into a championship contender (hopefully):
1. trade veterans due for big pay increases for cheaper prospects and/or picks
2. Sign lesser known or undervalued players to short but reasonable contracts
3. Trade expirings for FRPs / prospects in deadline deals from teams looking to make free agency splashes
4. Draft prospects with lesser immediate NBA impacts but higher ceilings (but still have a high demonstrated talent level)

Approach A's timeframe is in the immediate future; the next year or two.

Approach B's timeframe is indeterminate. Likely 4-5 years out at least.

Both approaches can be deemed "making the team better" depending on what your goals are (Immediate wins vs. value of accumulated assets).

Both approaches can be deemed "making the team worse" depending on what your goals are (Sacrificing the long-term ceiling of the franchise vs lower immediate ceiling)

Approach A's benefit wanes after a year or two as players age out. But you are left with a ton of salary paying players that can no longer play.

We've never really fully committed to B. One year is not a commitment. More patience is required than a lot of people have.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#44 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:25 pm

Sure, every personnel action taken toward trying to win a championship is improving the team. What I was referring to is the non-stop, any given moment, down to a man “Hey, we should trade for so-and-so because he’s better than who we have right now” stuff with no regard for a timeframe, fair value, or a calculated strategy.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#45 » by Invictus88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:41 pm

I kind of thought I was talking about both :)
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#46 » by DetroitPistons » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:05 pm

dVs33 wrote:If we have good success?? Haha
Casey and derozen may love each other but they have nothing to show for it. And our bigs are an awful fit for him. Move Drummond and we might be good but that seems like the opposite to what our ownership wants
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Snakebites wrote:Yeah we’re not going to keep him, he’s a rental.

Dubious fit with the bigs too. I think I’d like it if a big was being shipped out somehow. Depends of course on the particulars of the trade though.


Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.


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They have nothing to show for it? They were consistently at the top of the East... I certainly wouldn't mind seeing what Casey and DeRozan can do with Griffin and Drummond.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#47 » by thesack12 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:26 pm

DetroitPistons wrote:
dVs33 wrote:If we have good success?? Haha
Casey and derozen may love each other but they have nothing to show for it. And our bigs are an awful fit for him. Move Drummond and we might be good but that seems like the opposite to what our ownership wants
DetroitPistons wrote:
Casey and DeRozan love each other and if we have good success with him I think we would have a very strong chance of keeping him. I don't see how anyone can just assume he is a rental.


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They have nothing to show for it? They were consistently at the top of the East... I certainly wouldn't mind seeing what Casey and DeRozan can do with Griffin and Drummond.


I take it regular season records impress you?

Casey/DeRozan have a 21-30 playoff record together. They only got past the 2nd round 1 time in 5 years, and twice didn't even make it out of the 1st round (1 of those being a sweep.)

Look what happened for Toronto immediately after they get rid of both of those guys...
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#48 » by Invictus88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:32 pm

thesack12 wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
dVs33 wrote:If we have good success?? Haha
Casey and derozen may love each other but they have nothing to show for it. And our bigs are an awful fit for him. Move Drummond and we might be good but that seems like the opposite to what our ownership wants

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They have nothing to show for it? They were consistently at the top of the East... I certainly wouldn't mind seeing what Casey and DeRozan can do with Griffin and Drummond.


I take it regular season records impress you?

Casey/DeRozan have a 21-30 playoff record together. They only got past the 2nd round 1 time in 6 years, and twice didn't even make it out of the 1st round while being the #1 seed (1 of those being a sweep.)

Look what happened for Toronto immediately after they get rid of both of those guys...


To be fair you can't look at it in a bubble like that. They did also add Kawhi and remake some of their roster as well...
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#49 » by thesack12 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:43 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
thesack12 wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
They have nothing to show for it? They were consistently at the top of the East... I certainly wouldn't mind seeing what Casey and DeRozan can do with Griffin and Drummond.


I take it regular season records impress you?

Casey/DeRozan have a 21-30 playoff record together. They only got past the 2nd round 1 time in 6 years, and twice didn't even make it out of the 1st round while being the #1 seed (1 of those being a sweep.)

Look what happened for Toronto immediately after they get rid of both of those guys...


To be fair you can't look at it in a bubble like that. They did also add Kawhi and remake some of their roster as well...


Sure they did.

But with Casey and DeMar their playoff record was poor, and their ceiling sure seemed to be a 2nd round team. So why are we supposed to believe that duo would fare any better in Detroit with a worse overall roster/talent base in a stronger overall eastern conference, than those Raptor teams did?
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#50 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:55 pm

Invictus88 wrote:I kind of thought I was talking about both :)

Yes, you made a distinction between two ideologies with the caveat that in the end they’re both about trying to improve the team, and I clarified that I was referring to one specific method when I used the term “always trying to improve” method.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#51 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:10 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
thesack12 wrote:
DetroitPistons wrote:
They have nothing to show for it? They were consistently at the top of the East... I certainly wouldn't mind seeing what Casey and DeRozan can do with Griffin and Drummond.


I take it regular season records impress you?

Casey/DeRozan have a 21-30 playoff record together. They only got past the 2nd round 1 time in 6 years, and twice didn't even make it out of the 1st round while being the #1 seed (1 of those being a sweep.)

Look what happened for Toronto immediately after they get rid of both of those guys...


To be fair you can't look at it in a bubble like that. They did also add Kawhi and remake some of their roster as well...

Which supports the point I’ve been making all along...that it took adding a superstar plus other improvements from an already top team in the east to win an NBA championship, thus there is no point in the Pistons making marginal improvements. Realistically all you can expect is a few more wins and a worse draft pick.

Which leads into something else I’ve said all along...that wanting the marginal improvements is really about “I just want to see more entertaining basketball...RIGHT NOW.”
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#52 » by rmfc » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:11 pm

DeMar DeRozan would be a good player to add (obviously) but, at this time, he is not a good fit with this team.
We need shooters (& playmakers) on the perimeter that can actually play competent defense in the starting lineup on a regular basis.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#53 » by Invictus88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:47 pm

Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:I kind of thought I was talking about both :)

Yes, you made a distinction between two ideologies with the caveat that in the end they’re both about trying to improve the team, and I clarified that I was referring to one specific method when I used the term “always trying to improve” method.


No. My point was that each ideology claims to be "improving the team" depending on point of view. Not that both actually do so in the end.

Because of the way I described it (with the ideologies being fairly opposed to each other) it would be very difficult to say that both improve the team; regardless of which side of the fence you lie on.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#54 » by Invictus88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:51 pm

thesack12 wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
thesack12 wrote:
I take it regular season records impress you?

Casey/DeRozan have a 21-30 playoff record together. They only got past the 2nd round 1 time in 6 years, and twice didn't even make it out of the 1st round while being the #1 seed (1 of those being a sweep.)

Look what happened for Toronto immediately after they get rid of both of those guys...


To be fair you can't look at it in a bubble like that. They did also add Kawhi and remake some of their roster as well...


Sure they did.

But with Casey and DeMar their playoff record was poor, and their ceiling sure seemed to be a 2nd round team. So why are we supposed to believe that duo would fare any better in Detroit with a worse overall roster/talent base in a stronger overall eastern conference, than those Raptor teams did?


Right, but you seem to be completely discounting the great positive effects that Kawhi and the personnel moves afterward had. By your previous statement you seem to be implying (by omission) that it was solely the subtraction of Casey and DeMar that vaulted Toronto to a championship. But there were other huge factors involved.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#55 » by Manocad » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:34 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:I kind of thought I was talking about both :)

Yes, you made a distinction between two ideologies with the caveat that in the end they’re both about trying to improve the team, and I clarified that I was referring to one specific method when I used the term “always trying to improve” method.


No. My point was that each ideology claims to be "improving the team" depending on point of view. Not that both actually do so in the end.

Because of the way I described it (with the ideologies being fairly opposed to each other) it would be very difficult to say that both improve the team; regardless of which side of the fence you lie on.

I gotcha; hence my use of the word "trying."

IMO what I'm referring to as the "always try to improve the team" strategy sometimes doesn't improve the team much at all. Getting Blake is a perfect example; while the team went from just missing the playoffs to just squeaking in and getting prison sexed, no real "improvement" was ultimately achieved. Thus thinking this team is now good enough that if they just added a Westbrook, Derozan or some other all star du jour they'd be close to a championship is completely illogical.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#56 » by thesack12 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:05 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
thesack12 wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
To be fair you can't look at it in a bubble like that. They did also add Kawhi and remake some of their roster as well...


Sure they did.

But with Casey and DeMar their playoff record was poor, and their ceiling sure seemed to be a 2nd round team. So why are we supposed to believe that duo would fare any better in Detroit with a worse overall roster/talent base in a stronger overall eastern conference, than those Raptor teams did?


Right, but you seem to be completely discounting the great positive effects that Kawhi and the personnel moves afterward had. By your previous statement you seem to be implying (by omission) that it was solely the subtraction of Casey and DeMar that vaulted Toronto to a championship. But there were other huge factors involved.


I'm not discounting the other moves they made.

Ask yourself this, why did Toronto make such moves? The answer is because Toronto had reached its ceiling with Casey and DeRozan, and thus thought they were better off without them. As it turned out, they were exactly right.

When a team improves after somebody prominent leaves, its not hard to make correlations that the team was being held back by them. Toronto was a poor playoff team during the Casey era, they disappointed year in/year out after solid regular season records.

Its also worth noting that Toronto fired Casey 2 months before trading for Kawhi. So its pretty obvious, that the Raps wanted to move on from Dwane even if they were just going to run it back with the same roster.

Besides, the bigger point here is if Toronto's ceiling with Casey/DeRozan was limited. So if they were both in Detroit, why should we expect bigger things? Especially considering the Pistons have a worse roster/talent base than those Raptors team had, and the eastern conference is currently a lot stronger overall than it was then.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#57 » by Uncle Mxy » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:31 pm

How was DeRozan's defense with the Spurs and Pop? Any improvement?
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#58 » by DetroitDon15 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:14 pm

Uncle Mxy wrote:How was DeRozan's defense with the Spurs and Pop? Any improvement?


DeRozan isn’t going to be asked to be a defensive stopper. Snell will D up the better 2 or 3 on the court. It’s silly to say about DeMar since he isn’t Kawhi on defense.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#59 » by kpt » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:19 pm

rmfc wrote:DeMar DeRozan would be a good player to add (obviously) but, at this time, he is not a good fit with this team.
We need shooters (& playmakers) on the perimeter that can actually play competent defense in the starting lineup on a regular basis.


I totally agree horrible fit with this team.
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Re: Trade for DeMar DeRozan... 

Post#60 » by Canadafan » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:07 pm

thesack12 wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
thesack12 wrote:
Sure they did.

But with Casey and DeMar their playoff record was poor, and their ceiling sure seemed to be a 2nd round team. So why are we supposed to believe that duo would fare any better in Detroit with a worse overall roster/talent base in a stronger overall eastern conference, than those Raptor teams did?


Right, but you seem to be completely discounting the great positive effects that Kawhi and the personnel moves afterward had. By your previous statement you seem to be implying (by omission) that it was solely the subtraction of Casey and DeMar that vaulted Toronto to a championship. But there were other huge factors involved.


I'm not discounting the other moves they made.

Ask yourself this, why did Toronto make such moves? The answer is because Toronto had reached its ceiling with Casey and DeRozan, and thus thought they were better off without them. As it turned out, they were exactly right.

When a team improves after somebody prominent leaves, its not hard to make correlations that the team was being held back by them. Toronto was a poor playoff team during the Casey era, they disappointed year in/year out after solid regular season records.

Its also worth noting that Toronto fired Casey 2 months before trading for Kawhi. So its pretty obvious, that the Raps wanted to move on from Dwane even if they were just going to run it back with the same roster.

Besides, the bigger point here is if Toronto's ceiling with Casey/DeRozan was limited. So if they were both in Detroit, why should we expect bigger things? Especially considering the Pistons have a worse roster/talent base than those Raptors team had, and the eastern conference is currently a lot stronger overall than it was then.


I'm more of the thought that Lebronto owned Toronto thus making them underachieve in the playoffs. And then they got historically lucky in the finals this year

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