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Dre's new beer-a-day regimen

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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#21 » by El Chivo » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:56 am

zeebneeb wrote:Ben Wallace a better defender? Yeah of course. Harder worker? Yup. Better player? Nope.


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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#22 » by Snakebites » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:37 am

I think Drummond is a textbook example for why you can't use volume stats alone to judge the value of a player on the court. Comparing him to Ben really drives that point further home.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#23 » by DBC10 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:03 pm

Snakebites wrote:I think Drummond is a textbook example for why you can't use volume stats alone to judge the value of a player on the court. Comparing him to Ben really drives that point further home.


This by a mile.

Ben was a way more impactful and player than Drummond. I need to see more of Dre to take over (whether def or off) and we haven't seen that yet consistently. That and be able to do that in the playoffs would be nice for once.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#24 » by Invictus88 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:05 pm

I'll probably take flak for saying this, but I don't think that prime Ben Wallace would be nearly as effective now as he was back in his time. The game has just changed so much in terms of officiating, players' approaches towards drawing fouls, and 3 point shooting. The need for a shut down C is so much less due to less emphasis on post play and increased frequency of floaters, etc. There was even a thread on the general board asking why the league leader in blocks is down about 1.5 over the last 15 years or so...

This isn't meant to point out that Dre is better or on the same plane as Ben; especially on the effort side. But it's important to point out that Ben had more of an opportunity to be a factor as well due to game dynamics.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#25 » by flow » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:07 pm

zeebneeb wrote:
flow wrote:
zeebneeb wrote:No, your probably right.

I always laugh when I see people complain about Andre. I know some of us appreciate him. Best rebounder since Rodman, best offensive rebounder since Moses, and will probably end up top 3 all time in rebounding, and unless he leaves this season, will end up the Pistons best rebounder all time.

He has gotten better each year, and finished last season with numbers not seen since the 60's, but hey, who the hell cares right?

I've tuned it out, and know the Pistons ever having a center even as good as andre in my lifetime is slim, to none.


Unless you're 12 yrs. old, Drummond is nowhere near the best Pistons center of your lifetime.

.
Statistically he is and it's not even close. There is no debate to be had.

Ben Wallace a better defender? Yeah of course. Harder worker? Yup. Better player? Nope.


Hold on.

If you had a choice between Ben Wallace and Andre Drummond, who would you choose for your team? For any team?

.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#26 » by flow » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Invictus88 wrote:I'll probably take flak for saying this, but I don't think that prime Ben Wallace would be nearly as effective now as he was back in his time. The game has just changed so much in terms of officiating, players' approaches towards drawing fouls, and 3 point shooting. The need for a shut down C is so much less due to less emphasis on post play and increased frequency of floaters, etc. There was even a thread on the general board asking why the league leader in blocks is down about 1.5 over the last 15 years or so...

This isn't meant to point out that Dre is better or on the same plane as Ben; especially on the effort side. But it's important to point out that Ben had more of an opportunity to be a factor as well due to game dynamics.


More of an opportunity to be a factor?

Drummond was handed the title of 'cornerstone player' and franchise contracts right out of the gate. He was an NBA starter from day 1. Wallace was undrafted and scratched & clawed just to make a roster.

Wallace played for rings because he became a huge impact factor in putting his team in position to do so. Wallace created his opportunities. Drummond has done nothing with his. But Wallace certainly didn't have more of them than Drummond.

.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#27 » by mattao313 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:39 pm

Drummond is so inconsistent you cant depend on him. Looking at his stats you'd think he is a borderline superstar. Drummond is the type of guy you shouldn't have expectations for, unfortunately on our team hes a 'star'.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#28 » by Invictus88 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:58 pm

flow wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:I'll probably take flak for saying this, but I don't think that prime Ben Wallace would be nearly as effective now as he was back in his time. The game has just changed so much in terms of officiating, players' approaches towards drawing fouls, and 3 point shooting. The need for a shut down C is so much less due to less emphasis on post play and increased frequency of floaters, etc. There was even a thread on the general board asking why the league leader in blocks is down about 1.5 over the last 15 years or so...

This isn't meant to point out that Dre is better or on the same plane as Ben; especially on the effort side. But it's important to point out that Ben had more of an opportunity to be a factor as well due to game dynamics.


More of an opportunity to be a factor?

Drummond was handed the title of 'cornerstone player' and franchise contracts right out of the gate. He was an NBA starter from day 1. Wallace was undrafted and scratched & clawed just to make a roster.

Wallace played for rings because he became a huge impact factor in putting his team in position to do so. Wallace created his opportunities. Drummond has done nothing with his. But Wallace certainly didn't have more of them than Drummond.

.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the center position in its traditional sense affects a game far less than it did 15 years ago. Again, not saying Ben didn't create opportunities but his position in general was just more impactful back then.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#29 » by DetroitSho » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:48 pm

flow wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:I'll probably take flak for saying this, but I don't think that prime Ben Wallace would be nearly as effective now as he was back in his time. The game has just changed so much in terms of officiating, players' approaches towards drawing fouls, and 3 point shooting. The need for a shut down C is so much less due to less emphasis on post play and increased frequency of floaters, etc. There was even a thread on the general board asking why the league leader in blocks is down about 1.5 over the last 15 years or so...

This isn't meant to point out that Dre is better or on the same plane as Ben; especially on the effort side. But it's important to point out that Ben had more of an opportunity to be a factor as well due to game dynamics.


More of an opportunity to be a factor?

Drummond was handed the title of 'cornerstone player' and franchise contracts right out of the gate. He was an NBA starter from day 1. Wallace was undrafted and scratched & clawed just to make a roster.

Wallace played for rings because he became a huge impact factor in putting his team in position to do so. Wallace created his opportunities. Drummond has done nothing with his. But Wallace certainly didn't have more of them than Drummond.

.
Drummond a starter from day 1? This is easily verifiable, I mean seriously. Do you know how many threads there were of people complaining he wasn't starting his first year?

And Dre has done nothing with his opportunity. I mean FFS he's not exactly Embiid but he's certainly not Anthony Bennett. He's a really good, productive player. Just because he doesn't meet your expectations doesn't mean he has "done nothing with his opportunity".

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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#30 » by Manocad » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:37 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
flow wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:I'll probably take flak for saying this, but I don't think that prime Ben Wallace would be nearly as effective now as he was back in his time. The game has just changed so much in terms of officiating, players' approaches towards drawing fouls, and 3 point shooting. The need for a shut down C is so much less due to less emphasis on post play and increased frequency of floaters, etc. There was even a thread on the general board asking why the league leader in blocks is down about 1.5 over the last 15 years or so...

This isn't meant to point out that Dre is better or on the same plane as Ben; especially on the effort side. But it's important to point out that Ben had more of an opportunity to be a factor as well due to game dynamics.


More of an opportunity to be a factor?

Drummond was handed the title of 'cornerstone player' and franchise contracts right out of the gate. He was an NBA starter from day 1. Wallace was undrafted and scratched & clawed just to make a roster.

Wallace played for rings because he became a huge impact factor in putting his team in position to do so. Wallace created his opportunities. Drummond has done nothing with his. But Wallace certainly didn't have more of them than Drummond.

.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the center position in its traditional sense affects a game far less than it did 15 years ago. Again, not saying Ben didn't create opportunities but his position in general was just more impactful back then.

"Far" less? No. Until players start never entering the paint, the center position--as it's played, regardless of whether the position is labeled center or power forward--will always have a big impact because interior defense and scoring will always be a big part of basketball.

And Ben was one of the all time best defensive players ever, period. He did it with quick hands, quick feet, incredible athleticism and fantastic anticipation. There is no part of his defense and ability to impact a game that gets lost in ANY era of basketball.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#31 » by Invictus88 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:41 am

Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
flow wrote:
More of an opportunity to be a factor?

Drummond was handed the title of 'cornerstone player' and franchise contracts right out of the gate. He was an NBA starter from day 1. Wallace was undrafted and scratched & clawed just to make a roster.

Wallace played for rings because he became a huge impact factor in putting his team in position to do so. Wallace created his opportunities. Drummond has done nothing with his. But Wallace certainly didn't have more of them than Drummond.

.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the center position in its traditional sense affects a game far less than it did 15 years ago. Again, not saying Ben didn't create opportunities but his position in general was just more impactful back then.

"Far" less? No. Until players start never entering the paint, the center position--as it's played, regardless of whether the position is labeled center or power forward--will always have a big impact because interior defense and scoring will always be a big part of basketball.

And Ben was one of the all time best defensive players ever, period. He did it with quick hands, quick feet, incredible athleticism and fantastic anticipation. There is no part of his defense and ability to impact a game that gets lost in ANY era of basketball.


The drastic increase in 3 point shooting over the last 10 years says you are incorrect. Ben was never a player that guarded players on the perimeter. If there are significantly more shots going up there then, by definition, part of his effectiveness gets 'lost' in today's game.

Look, I'm not saying Ben wouldn't still be great at stopping the times that people did drive to the hoop AND weren't looking to purposely draw fouls (ala James Harden) OR float the ball over the outstretched hands of the defender OR kick out to the stretch *5* (Ben's man) that is now waiting for a corner three. Those tactics just weren't as prevalent when he played. He didn't have to drift from the paint; which is now a requirement.

There's a reason why blocks are trending way down. The number of really contestable shots is way down, and the amount of post-up defense needed is way down too. Those were Ben's specialties...
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#32 » by Snakebites » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:38 am

Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the center position in its traditional sense affects a game far less than it did 15 years ago. Again, not saying Ben didn't create opportunities but his position in general was just more impactful back then.

"Far" less? No. Until players start never entering the paint, the center position--as it's played, regardless of whether the position is labeled center or power forward--will always have a big impact because interior defense and scoring will always be a big part of basketball.

And Ben was one of the all time best defensive players ever, period. He did it with quick hands, quick feet, incredible athleticism and fantastic anticipation. There is no part of his defense and ability to impact a game that gets lost in ANY era of basketball.


The drastic increase in 3 point shooting over the last 10 years says you are incorrect. Ben was never a player that guarded players on the perimeter. If there are significantly more shots going up there then, by definition, part of his effectiveness gets 'lost' in today's game.

Look, I'm not saying Ben wouldn't still be great at stopping the times that people did drive to the hoop AND weren't looking to purposely draw fouls (ala James Harden) OR float the ball over the outstretched hands of the defender OR kick out to the stretch *5* (Ben's man) that is now waiting for a corner three. Those tactics just weren't as prevalent when he played. He didn't have to drift from the paint; which is now a requirement.

There's a reason why blocks are trending way down. The number of really contestable shots is way down, and the amount of post-up defense needed is way down too. Those were Ben's specialties...

Even if we're going to argue that Ben's relevance would be reduced in the modern era due to changes in offense, that argument really doesn't do Drummond any favors. And this is, after all, now a discussion about Dre vs Ben.

If anything Drummond's offense has lost more value in the modern NBA than Ben's defense would lose.

Discussion of modern day translation of games has some merit, but it doesn't get us anywhere in Ben vs Dre. Dre's a dinosaur too.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#33 » by Manocad » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:56 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the center position in its traditional sense affects a game far less than it did 15 years ago. Again, not saying Ben didn't create opportunities but his position in general was just more impactful back then.

"Far" less? No. Until players start never entering the paint, the center position--as it's played, regardless of whether the position is labeled center or power forward--will always have a big impact because interior defense and scoring will always be a big part of basketball.

And Ben was one of the all time best defensive players ever, period. He did it with quick hands, quick feet, incredible athleticism and fantastic anticipation. There is no part of his defense and ability to impact a game that gets lost in ANY era of basketball.


The drastic increase in 3 point shooting over the last 10 years says you are incorrect. Ben was never a player that guarded players on the perimeter. If there are significantly more shots going up there then, by definition, part of his effectiveness gets 'lost' in today's game.

Look, I'm not saying Ben wouldn't still be great at stopping the times that people did drive to the hoop AND weren't looking to purposely draw fouls (ala James Harden) OR float the ball over the outstretched hands of the defender OR kick out to the stretch *5* (Ben's man) that is now waiting for a corner three. Those tactics just weren't as prevalent when he played. He didn't have to drift from the paint; which is now a requirement.

There's a reason why blocks are trending way down. The number of really contestable shots is way down, and the amount of post-up defense needed is way down too. Those were Ben's specialties...

The increase in 3-point shooting has come at the expense of mid-range shots, not shots in the paint.

In any case, Ben's impact on a game was vastly greater because he was a HELLUVA lot better defensive player than Drummond. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If you want to use the overall impact of the position due to changes in the game as being a part of that, fine--have at it. But if you're making an argument that the change in how the game is generally played now is the main reason why Drummond is less effective than Ben, you're flat out wrong. Period. Nobody who watched both players at length would agree with you on that one.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#34 » by Invictus88 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:20 pm

Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:"Far" less? No. Until players start never entering the paint, the center position--as it's played, regardless of whether the position is labeled center or power forward--will always have a big impact because interior defense and scoring will always be a big part of basketball.

And Ben was one of the all time best defensive players ever, period. He did it with quick hands, quick feet, incredible athleticism and fantastic anticipation. There is no part of his defense and ability to impact a game that gets lost in ANY era of basketball.


The drastic increase in 3 point shooting over the last 10 years says you are incorrect. Ben was never a player that guarded players on the perimeter. If there are significantly more shots going up there then, by definition, part of his effectiveness gets 'lost' in today's game.

Look, I'm not saying Ben wouldn't still be great at stopping the times that people did drive to the hoop AND weren't looking to purposely draw fouls (ala James Harden) OR float the ball over the outstretched hands of the defender OR kick out to the stretch *5* (Ben's man) that is now waiting for a corner three. Those tactics just weren't as prevalent when he played. He didn't have to drift from the paint; which is now a requirement.

There's a reason why blocks are trending way down. The number of really contestable shots is way down, and the amount of post-up defense needed is way down too. Those were Ben's specialties...

The increase in 3-point shooting has come at the expense of mid-range shots, not shots in the paint.

In any case, Ben's impact on a game was vastly greater because he was a HELLUVA lot better defensive player than Drummond. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If you want to use the overall impact of the position due to changes in the game as being a part of that, fine--have at it. But if you're making an argument that the change in how the game is generally played now is the main reason why Drummond is less effective than Ben, you're flat out wrong. Period. Nobody who watched both players at length would agree with you on that one.


Nope. You'll have no contest from me on that front. From an effort perspective there's simply no comparison between the two.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#35 » by Invictus88 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:22 pm

Snakebites wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:"Far" less? No. Until players start never entering the paint, the center position--as it's played, regardless of whether the position is labeled center or power forward--will always have a big impact because interior defense and scoring will always be a big part of basketball.

And Ben was one of the all time best defensive players ever, period. He did it with quick hands, quick feet, incredible athleticism and fantastic anticipation. There is no part of his defense and ability to impact a game that gets lost in ANY era of basketball.


The drastic increase in 3 point shooting over the last 10 years says you are incorrect. Ben was never a player that guarded players on the perimeter. If there are significantly more shots going up there then, by definition, part of his effectiveness gets 'lost' in today's game.

Look, I'm not saying Ben wouldn't still be great at stopping the times that people did drive to the hoop AND weren't looking to purposely draw fouls (ala James Harden) OR float the ball over the outstretched hands of the defender OR kick out to the stretch *5* (Ben's man) that is now waiting for a corner three. Those tactics just weren't as prevalent when he played. He didn't have to drift from the paint; which is now a requirement.

There's a reason why blocks are trending way down. The number of really contestable shots is way down, and the amount of post-up defense needed is way down too. Those were Ben's specialties...

Even if we're going to argue that Ben's relevance would be reduced in the modern era due to changes in offense, that argument really doesn't do Drummond any favors. And this is, after all, now a discussion about Dre vs Ben.

If anything Drummond's offense has lost more value in the modern NBA than Ben's defense would lose.

Discussion of modern day translation of games has some merit, but it doesn't get us anywhere in Ben vs Dre. Dre's a dinosaur too.

I still see Drummond's offensive skillset as being maybe a slight upgrade of Deandre Jordan's. A developing hook shot that has become much less relevant but otherwise putbacks from rebounding, etc mainly. There's still a place for that in today's NBA just as there was a place for it in Ben's time; so I don't really see the change in value there.

I stressed this in my original post but I'll say it again (maybe better?): There's no question that Ben's affect on the game was far more than Dre's. There's also no question that Ben's hustle/effort/will had a lot to do with that. He earned that impact. He was more valuable to the Pistons than Dre has been to his team by a large margin.

But if you are going to discuss about Dre vs. Ben then you can't do that in a vacuum without talking about how the game has changed between when each has played. There's no doubt that the value of bigs in today's game has changed. You can see it reflected in salary numbers. You can see it in usage numbers, etc. And for that reason I at least feel that pointing that fact out is relevant.

It wasn't meant to do Dre any favors. He has to find his own way to be more relevant in today's game. He knows this. It's why he's again trying to shoot threes in the offseason. (and yes, however futile an attempt that might likely be :) )

There's no time machine to magically bring Ben from the past forward in time to prove / disprove any points being made here. So I've done all I can to state what I wanted. :)
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#36 » by Manocad » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:52 pm

The question was previously asked—right here, right now, in their prime, do you take Ben or Dre?

Ben. All day every day, don’t even have to think about it for a split second.
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#37 » by The_Irony » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:15 am

can't believe this is even being debated
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Re: Dre's new beer-a-day regimen 

Post#38 » by Manocad » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:41 pm

The_Irony wrote:can't believe this is even being debated

The part that got me was that me statement that Ben would be far less effective in today’s NBA. Are you kidding me? Ben Wallace, albeit defensively only, is EXACTLY what everyone wants in a center in today’s NBA—more quickness and lateral movement which generally translates to being a bit undersized. Offensively no, but Ben’s intangibles absolutely made up for his lack of offense. I would GLADLY sacrifice Drummond’s 8 or so extra PPG to have the same number of boards and FAR better defense and leadership. How many guys in the HISTORY of the NBA scored 7-8 PPG as a starter but everyone in the league would say “Dude’s a f***ing stud” about?
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