Brown v Saunders, Chauncey v Ben

[Laimbeer]

Looking back again at this period, I'm feeling like Saunders was just as good as Brown and Chauncey more important than Ben.

When you look at win totals, we were actually better with Saunders when he had the same players. We remained pretty much intact without Ben but fell apart without Chauncey.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12eugtcC1UCygjHx9osgZmhY1nlLE0h425toK4A47FWo/edit?usp=sharing

[flow]

Couldn't disagree more about Saunders. Was against his hire. Not a bad coach, but bad for that team. Too different from Brown. The team changed dramatically. Defense went from stifling man to softer zone. Offense became perimeter-oriented / jump shot-focused. I knew they wouldn't make the Finals again once Saunders was hired. They lost their edge.


PS: I didn't look at the spread sheet. They still won a lot of games and I'm sure there are some nice numbers. Scored more points, etc.... But since I observed it all, I don't have the disadvantage of potentially being misled by numbers.


PPS: Saunders' new system was the reason Ben left the team after the '05/'06 season. It phased him out & minimized his impact.

https://www.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/12/ben_wallace_tells_reporters_le.html

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[Snakebites]

Flip couldn’t adjust in the playoffs. He was a great basketball guy but not right for that core.

My assessment of him got a LOT kinder after seeing the parade of failure that followed him.

Chauncey was more important that Ben. I was convinced of that in 2007 and still believe it now.

[JNewton]

PS: I didn't look at the spread sheet. They still won a lot of games and I'm sure there are some nice numbers. Scored more points, etc.... But since I observed it all, I don't have the disadvantage of potentially being misled by numbers.

I actually thought Flip did a pretty good job his last season with the Pistons. It wasn't on him that Boston was superior, that was Dumars and Davidson for roster moves and unwillingness to pay luxury tax for depth.

[Snakebites]

PS: I didn't look at the spread sheet. They still won a lot of games and I'm sure there are some nice numbers. Scored more points, etc.... But since I observed it all, I don't have the disadvantage of potentially being misled by numbers.

I actually thought Flip did a pretty good job his last season with the Pistons. It wasn't on him that Boston was superior, that was Dumars and Davidson for roster moves and unwillingness to pay luxury tax for depth.

In 2008 we lost to a better team. That’s for sure. We had a relatively easy path to the ECF though. No Lebron.

[Billl]

Ben left a team full of all-stars still relatively close to their prime. Chauncey left a rapidly aging team counting on guys like Rodney Stuckey to step up. I don't know if you can read much into the relative falloff of the teams at that point.

[Snakebites]

Ben left a team full of all-stars still relatively close to their prime. Chauncey left a rapidly aging team counting on guys like Rodney Stuckey to step up. I don't know if you can read much into the relative falloff of the teams at that point.

2009 outcome isn’t really my basis for an opinion. I always thought he was more important. If it were Billups gone in 2007 instead of Ben I believe we’d have fallen off a lot more.

We were still an above average team defensively after Ben left. Without Billups our offense would have really suffered. That’s obviously unprovable but it is how I feel.

I can’t quantify who was better, but I think for our specific team Billups was more important.

[Manocad]

Couldn't disagree more about Saunders. Was against his hire. Not a bad coach, but bad for that team. Too different from Brown. The team changed dramatically. Defense went from stifling man to softer zone. Offense became perimeter-oriented / jump shot-focused. I knew they wouldn't make the Finals again once Saunders was hired. They lost their edge.


PS: I didn't look at the spread sheet. They still won a lot of games and I'm sure there are some nice numbers. Scored more points, etc.... But since I observed it all, I don't have the disadvantage of potentially being misled by numbers.


PPS: Saunders' new system was the reason Ben left the team after the '05/'06 season. It phased him out & minimized his impact.

https://www.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/12/ben_wallace_tells_reporters_le.html

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This.

I'd take Ben over Chauncey though based only on the dropoff at each position when their backups played. But it's not really a question you can give a good answer to. Kinda like "Which is a better car to own? An $85,000 Corvette or an $85,000 heavy duty dually crew cab 4x4 truck?" (And yes, those trucks can absolutely cost that much, and even more)

[TPA]

I seem to remember a different team mentality after Brown. Like the players' ego led the team, not the coach. Sheed was a great asset to the team, but you saw guys like Rip and Tay start to take on that defiant and rebellious "Sheed" mentality. Either Flip couldn't coach them, or the team as a whole thought they were too "good" to be coached, and never had the ability to close out important series.
Without Ben, the team still had Sheed at C and good PF options. After Billups left, Stuckey never filled the shoes of the team's true leader.

[Billl]

I think people really underestimate the mental impact of going to so many conference finals. Yeah, they lost the same intensity that they had at the start. It's just about impossible to keep that up year after year with the same group of guys. Even teams with HOF alpha-dog leaders haven't been able to do that.

And just realistically, that team won by outworking other teams. That style of play doesn't age particularly well once most of the team hits the wrong side of 30. They could still play great defense in spurts, but the real magic had come from being able to do that every play for 48 minutes.

[flow]

Ben left a team full of all-stars still relatively close to their prime. Chauncey left a rapidly aging team counting on guys like Rodney Stuckey to step up. I don't know if you can read much into the relative falloff of the teams at that point.

2009 outcome isn’t really my basis for an opinion. I always thought he was more important. If it were Billups gone in 2007 instead of Ben I believe we’d have fallen off a lot more.

We were still an above average team defensively after Ben left. Without Billups our offense would have really suffered. That’s obviously unprovable but it is how I feel.

I can’t quantify who was better, but I think for our specific team Billups was more important.

This really underscores the distinction between the '04-'05 Brown Pistons and the '06-'08 Saunders Pistons. Two different teams.

I agree with you that Billups was more important to Saunders' Pistons. So does Ben. It goes to why he decided to leave a year after Saunders took over. The team philosophy shifted.

For Brown's Pistons, however, I'd have to say Ben was more important. Chauncey ran the show beautifully and was a great offensive player, but that team won with its defense. The offense was sluggish at times. And without Ben, it goes from the greatest defensive team of all time to just a good defense.

Regardless, both guys were tremendous.

[tmorgan]

Good thread. Refreshing.

[Snakebites]

Ben left a team full of all-stars still relatively close to their prime. Chauncey left a rapidly aging team counting on guys like Rodney Stuckey to step up. I don't know if you can read much into the relative falloff of the teams at that point.

2009 outcome isn’t really my basis for an opinion. I always thought he was more important. If it were Billups gone in 2007 instead of Ben I believe we’d have fallen off a lot more.

We were still an above average team defensively after Ben left. Without Billups our offense would have really suffered. That’s obviously unprovable but it is how I feel.

I can’t quantify who was better, but I think for our specific team Billups was more important.

This really underscores the distinction between the '04-'05 Brown Pistons and the '06-'08 Saunders Pistons. Two different teams.

I agree with you that Billups was more important to Saunders' Pistons. So does Ben. It goes to why he decided to leave a year after Saunders took over. The team philosophy shifted.

For Brown's Pistons, however, I'd have to say Ben was more important. Chauncey ran the show beautifully and was a great offensive player, but that team won with its defense. The offense was sluggish at times. And without Ben, it goes from the greatest defensive team of all time to just a good defense.

Regardless, both guys were tremendous.

If you take Billups off those 2003-05 teams, no amount of defense would be able to overcome how awful the offense would have been.

I think Ben stopped being more important than Billups when we got Sheed.

It's also worth noting that Billups and Ben's personal peaks don't line up perfectly either, making this comparison trickier. I still fall on the Billups side of things by a bit.

[Cowology]

Flip was a good regular season coach, but our offense was easy to game plan against in a 7 game series and the defense was not able make up for it.

LB secured fewer wins while developing a team that could win with defense, despite flawed offensive talent/execution. He made better in game and between game adjustments and ran better plays out of time outs.

LB was clearly a superior coach and I dont think that is even really debatable.

Ben vs. Chauncey I can go either way. Ben affected the entire way an opposing team had to play and his ability to erase mistakes and cover a lot of ground allowed players like Tay to play tighter and capitilize on his length.

Chauncey was the stabilizing force that kept us composed and obviously he made some big shots along the way.