ImageImageImage

Let's start the rebuild!

Moderators: dVs33, Snakebites, theBigLip

Moses ShamMoses
Starter
Posts: 2,416
And1: 869
Joined: Nov 28, 2012

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#221 » by Moses ShamMoses » Mon May 25, 2020 6:12 pm

Tony Snell was a fine role player for the Pistons last year. He plays solid defense and shot 40% from three. He isn't worth $12M a year but since he is expiring, his value is basically neutral. So yes, he can probably be had for nothing but Pistons would be dumb to pay anything to rid of him.
Jeff Van Gundy on his brother's Pistons: 'He took over the Titanic and it's sinking even quicker'
DetroitDon15
General Manager
Posts: 7,673
And1: 161
Joined: Jul 23, 2002
Location: Michigan
         

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#222 » by DetroitDon15 » Mon May 25, 2020 6:53 pm

Crymson wrote:
NYG wrote:Would the Pistons dump Tony Snell if no assets were sent out or returned to them?


Absolutely. He was bad last season, and will serve no practical purpose in what will almost certainly be a rebuilding season. Unfortunately, nobody is likely to want him. He's not a good NBA player, he's very overpaid at $12 million, and the cap will be going down.

Fortunately, the Pistons haven't got any need for cap space next season short of the ability to absorb bad contracts.


If you a team needing a 3&D, he could have value. Yes I’d give him away for nothing.
When a good hip player meets lotto team, your Pistons give us this gem:

Image

DetroitDon15 is a Piston Fan!
Crymson
Senior
Posts: 580
And1: 217
Joined: Apr 17, 2016

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#223 » by Crymson » Mon May 25, 2020 7:50 pm

DetroitDon15 wrote:If you a team needing a 3&D, he could have value. Yes I’d give him away for nothing.

Moses ShamMoses wrote:Tony Snell was a fine role player for the Pistons last year. He plays solid defense and shot 40% from three. He isn't worth $12M a year but since he is expiring, his value is basically neutral. So yes, he can probably be had for nothing but Pistons would be dumb to pay anything to rid of him.

Pharaoh wrote:I think there's several teams that could use Snell IF they had anything we needed. He's a good 3&D wing that doesn't get outside his toolbox.


He isn't a 3&D player. He's a below-average defender. And though he's an accurate three-point shooter, that talent constitutes almost the entirety of his offensive toolbox. Because he's almost entirely without any other way to contribute, he very often outright detracts from the offense. Included in this is his propensity toward disappearance; he ranked nearly worst among the NBA's starters this season in points per 100 possessions. All told, the Pistons were a significantly stronger offensive team without him on the floor.

He's a below-average NBA player being paid like a valuable contributor. His value is negative. Nobody will want him.
DetroitDon15
General Manager
Posts: 7,673
And1: 161
Joined: Jul 23, 2002
Location: Michigan
         

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#224 » by DetroitDon15 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:06 pm

Crymson wrote:
DetroitDon15 wrote:If you a team needing a 3&D, he could have value. Yes I’d give him away for nothing.

Moses ShamMoses wrote:Tony Snell was a fine role player for the Pistons last year. He plays solid defense and shot 40% from three. He isn't worth $12M a year but since he is expiring, his value is basically neutral. So yes, he can probably be had for nothing but Pistons would be dumb to pay anything to rid of him.

Pharaoh wrote:I think there's several teams that could use Snell IF they had anything we needed. He's a good 3&D wing that doesn't get outside his toolbox.


He isn't a 3&D player. He's a below-average defender. And though he's an accurate three-point shooter, that talent constitutes almost the entirety of his offensive toolbox. Because he's almost entirely without any other way to contribute, he very often outright detracts from the offense. Included in this is his propensity toward disappearance; he ranked nearly worst among the NBA's starters this season in points per 100 possessions. All told, the Pistons were a significantly stronger offensive team without him on the floor.

He's a below-average NBA player being paid like a valuable contributor. His value is negative. Nobody will want him.


He makes more than the MLE but he can be a useful rotation piece. I’m willing to give away free to help the rebuild.
When a good hip player meets lotto team, your Pistons give us this gem:

Image

DetroitDon15 is a Piston Fan!
Crymson
Senior
Posts: 580
And1: 217
Joined: Apr 17, 2016

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#225 » by Crymson » Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 am

DetroitDon15 wrote:He makes more than the MLE but he can be a useful rotation piece. I’m willing to give away free to help the rebuild.


He's somewhat useful as a bench shooter. He's maybe worth the BAE. He'll count for more than three times that amount against the cap next season.

I'm sure the Pistons would be perfectly happy to dump him for nothing. Unfortunately, his contract would be aversive to other teams even in normal times. It'll be even more so now. He's staying.
El Chivo
Starter
Posts: 2,046
And1: 821
Joined: Jun 19, 2015
Location: Roma
       

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#226 » by El Chivo » Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 am

Snell expiring could be a good trade chip, I'd rather keep him than free capspace now and give his money to another role player we don't need at this stage of the rebuilding.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
User avatar
Manocad
RealGM
Posts: 62,509
And1: 7,937
Joined: Dec 13, 2005
Location: Middle Fingerton
Contact:
       

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#227 » by Manocad » Tue May 26, 2020 12:57 pm

El Chivo wrote:Snell expiring could be a good trade chip, I'd rather keep him than free capspace now and give his money to another role player we don't need at this stage of the rebuilding.

This.

People still seem to think this team is SOOO close that they're constantly pushing to make this move, make that move, make another move to get better now now now. This team NEEDS to continue to suck in order to rebuild properly. Making moves to jump from 20-something wins to 40 wins puts you right back on the treadmill. The team needs to be built such they go 20-something wins, 30 wins, 32-35 wins, then boom--get your superstar (if one of the draft picks hasn't turned into one) and jump to a 50+ win team that can actually contend, i.e. past the second round of the playoffs. Maybe lose in the ECF, figure out what final pieces you need, add those and become a 55-60 win team that looks like a championship contender.

It's not gonna happen this year and it's not gonna happen next year. Let the team improve organically, i.e. they get better simply because the young players they're building with are getting better. Like most people will tell you, you build through the draft. You finish it off with free agents.
Image
Drwho17
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,276
And1: 130
Joined: Jul 31, 2004

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#228 » by Drwho17 » Tue May 26, 2020 4:57 pm

Manocad wrote:
El Chivo wrote:Snell expiring could be a good trade chip, I'd rather keep him than free capspace now and give his money to another role player we don't need at this stage of the rebuilding.

This.

People still seem to think this team is SOOO close that they're constantly pushing to make this move, make that move, make another move to get better now now now. This team NEEDS to continue to suck in order to rebuild properly. Making moves to jump from 20-something wins to 40 wins puts you right back on the treadmill. The team needs to be built such they go 20-something wins, 30 wins, 32-35 wins, then boom--get your superstar (if one of the draft picks hasn't turned into one) and jump to a 50+ win team that can actually contend, i.e. past the second round of the playoffs. Maybe lose in the ECF, figure out what final pieces you need, add those and become a 55-60 win team that looks like a championship contender.

It's not gonna happen this year and it's not gonna happen next year. Let the team improve organically, i.e. they get better simply because the young players they're building with are getting better. Like most people will tell you, you build through the draft. You finish it off with free agents.

I think the poster is saying Tony Snell is a good mid-sized expiring contract, nothing wrong with flipping him for a bad contract and future assets. I've seen plenty of offers for Snell on the main board, we get a 2-year deal + 1st rounder for him (essentially what we gave up for him in the first place), I see no issue with this, as I don't expect the Pistons to need cap room to bring in that star player.
edmunder_prc
Junior
Posts: 411
And1: 220
Joined: Dec 06, 2015
   

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#229 » by edmunder_prc » Tue May 26, 2020 5:15 pm

Everyone except Sekou is available if there is a decent return.

If Snell returns a bad 2 year contract and a first round pick I would be shocked, but maybe its a really awful 2 year contract? Im not sure which ones are out there on teams that are win-now for next year.

Players like Donte Hall need way more playing time to develop because he has Ben Wallace length, jumping and defensive potential. The chance that happens is low like 10% (?) or maybe he becomes a good center on a cheap deal. That would be nice too.

Thin the team out of ALL the vets, play like GS or tank Philly.

Casey is wrong coach for this though.
User avatar
Manocad
RealGM
Posts: 62,509
And1: 7,937
Joined: Dec 13, 2005
Location: Middle Fingerton
Contact:
       

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#230 » by Manocad » Tue May 26, 2020 9:07 pm

Drwho17 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
El Chivo wrote:Snell expiring could be a good trade chip, I'd rather keep him than free capspace now and give his money to another role player we don't need at this stage of the rebuilding.

This.

People still seem to think this team is SOOO close that they're constantly pushing to make this move, make that move, make another move to get better now now now. This team NEEDS to continue to suck in order to rebuild properly. Making moves to jump from 20-something wins to 40 wins puts you right back on the treadmill. The team needs to be built such they go 20-something wins, 30 wins, 32-35 wins, then boom--get your superstar (if one of the draft picks hasn't turned into one) and jump to a 50+ win team that can actually contend, i.e. past the second round of the playoffs. Maybe lose in the ECF, figure out what final pieces you need, add those and become a 55-60 win team that looks like a championship contender.

It's not gonna happen this year and it's not gonna happen next year. Let the team improve organically, i.e. they get better simply because the young players they're building with are getting better. Like most people will tell you, you build through the draft. You finish it off with free agents.

I think the poster is saying Tony Snell is a good mid-sized expiring contract, nothing wrong with flipping him for a bad contract and future assets. I've seen plenty of offers for Snell on the main board, we get a 2-year deal + 1st rounder for him (essentially what we gave up for him in the first place), I see no issue with this, as I don't expect the Pistons to need cap room to bring in that star player.

I disagree in the sense that I believe the original idea for clearing up Snell's cap hit is to have more money to pursue improvement players, not future assets.

In any case, I think all three of us are on the same page...don't use Snell as a piece to improve now. Getting rid of him to get a BETTER $12M player is NOT what this team needs right now. Draft picks, absolutely. And if he sucks even more reason to keep him. Him sucking helps the tank, and obviously him being expiring is an asset to a team that needs to clear cap space and has no intention of signing him to a new contract.
Image
the_l_train
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,492
And1: 48
Joined: Jul 05, 2005
Location: G-Rap

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#231 » by the_l_train » Tue May 26, 2020 11:19 pm

Manocad wrote:
Drwho17 wrote:
Manocad wrote:In any case, I think all three of us are on the same page...don't use Snell as a piece to improve now. Getting rid of him to get a BETTER $12M player is NOT what this team needs right now. Draft picks, absolutely. And if he sucks even more reason to keep him. Him sucking helps the tank, and obviously him being expiring is an asset to a team that needs to clear cap space and has no intention of signing him to a new contract.


Using this logic, should we bring back Thon on a minimum 1 year deal this Summer?
User avatar
Manocad
RealGM
Posts: 62,509
And1: 7,937
Joined: Dec 13, 2005
Location: Middle Fingerton
Contact:
       

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#232 » by Manocad » Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 am

the_l_train wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Drwho17 wrote:


Using this logic, should we bring back Thon on a minimum 1 year deal this Summer?

I think Thon has shown that he's never going to be a real contributor on a championship team. Are you going to throw a fit if he's your 12th man on minimum? Probably not. But while you're rebuilding there's no reason to bring him back rather than signing another minimum player who's younger and may turn into something.

If a lousy player with a year left can't be turned for assets, keep him. Losses don't hurt, he has a year left, and no one wants him as an expiring. No biggie. But that's not the same as re-signing lousy players you think have no future with the team.
Image
edmunder_prc
Junior
Posts: 411
And1: 220
Joined: Dec 06, 2015
   

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#233 » by edmunder_prc » Wed May 27, 2020 9:31 pm

Manocad wrote:
the_l_train wrote:
Manocad wrote:


Using this logic, should we bring back Thon on a minimum 1 year deal this Summer?

I think Thon has shown that he's never going to be a real contributor on a championship team. Are you going to throw a fit if he's your 12th man on minimum? Probably not. But while you're rebuilding there's no reason to bring him back rather than signing another minimum player who's younger and may turn into something.

If a lousy player with a year left can't be turned for assets, keep him. Losses don't hurt, he has a year left, and no one wants him as an expiring. No biggie. But that's not the same as re-signing lousy players you think have no future with the team.



Agree completely.

I dont think Thon should be brought back. Even Henson who would be pretty good on a cheap contract, he shouldnt be brought back.

Youth is what matters and potential. There isnt any more potential in Henson, Thon, or Jordan McRae, Knight. They are mediocre to below average bodies.

Donte Hall might become something. He is already better than Thon, immediately obvious. He will probably be much better than Henson if he gets a whole season playing with the team.

Louis King might become something, who knows. But that is better than Knight, who is already old and an average player at best.

All vets should go. This team should be GS-esque next year. Get rid of Rose. Play Kennard at PG, maybe draft Edwards, play him at PG.

Tank. Build. Develop guys. Zero minutes for vets unless they are extremely team player. I like Galloway for example. Everyone on the team likes him, he has positive energy, he has special handshakes, he smiles all the time. That goes a LONG way for a team that might not win many games. On offense he gets the ball and shoots. He is not stopping a good offense, he is part of a good offense.
DetroitDon15
General Manager
Posts: 7,673
And1: 161
Joined: Jul 23, 2002
Location: Michigan
         

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#234 » by DetroitDon15 » Thu May 28, 2020 11:42 pm

edmunder_prc wrote:
Manocad wrote:
the_l_train wrote:
Using this logic, should we bring back Thon on a minimum 1 year deal this Summer?

I think Thon has shown that he's never going to be a real contributor on a championship team. Are you going to throw a fit if he's your 12th man on minimum? Probably not. But while you're rebuilding there's no reason to bring him back rather than signing another minimum player who's younger and may turn into something.

If a lousy player with a year left can't be turned for assets, keep him. Losses don't hurt, he has a year left, and no one wants him as an expiring. No biggie. But that's not the same as re-signing lousy players you think have no future with the team.



Agree completely.

I dont think Thon should be brought back. Even Henson who would be pretty good on a cheap contract, he shouldnt be brought back.

Youth is what matters and potential. There isnt any more potential in Henson, Thon, or Jordan McRae, Knight. They are mediocre to below average bodies.

Donte Hall might become something. He is already better than Thon, immediately obvious. He will probably be much better than Henson if he gets a whole season playing with the team.

Louis King might become something, who knows. But that is better than Knight, who is already old and an average player at best.

All vets should go. This team should be GS-esque next year. Get rid of Rose. Play Kennard at PG, maybe draft Edwards, play him at PG.

Tank. Build. Develop guys. Zero minutes for vets unless they are extremely team player. I like Galloway for example. Everyone on the team likes him, he has positive energy, he has special handshakes, he smiles all the time. That goes a LONG way for a team that might not win many games. On offense he gets the ball and shoots. He is not stopping a good offense, he is part of a good offense.


Kennard is not a point guard. Last thing that I want him doing after the knee injuries. Pistons should draft a point guard.

In relation to Thon, I'm ok with him being just a back-up big. I'd rather him than Henson at this point.
When a good hip player meets lotto team, your Pistons give us this gem:

Image

DetroitDon15 is a Piston Fan!
theBigLip
Forum Mod - Pistons
Forum Mod - Pistons
Posts: 13,702
And1: 1,426
Joined: May 22, 2001
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
       

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#235 » by theBigLip » Sun May 31, 2020 5:10 am

Manocad wrote:
theBigLip wrote:First of all, we are rebuilding. IMHO, we should not trade our first round picks.

It totally makes sense to move Griffin to continue our rebuild, but trading him before next season is a waste of time. We need him to prove to the league he is healthy, so we have to keep him at least until early next season, and most likely to right up until the trade deadline. That's when we can make this move.

I'd even posit that moving Blake is impossible at this point until he's an expiring contract. He just makes too damn much. Even if he was a guaranteed 25/10/5 player you could expect to play all 82 games, is he worth $40 million in a time when the cap is expected to go down?


Agreed. The cap going down is a very unexpected event, although there might be some discussions between the players and owners on this one. If it does go down per the CBA, free agents this year will just be getting pennies since no one will have any cap space. Very interesting to see how this plays out.
NYG
Head Coach
Posts: 6,246
And1: 970
Joined: Aug 09, 2017

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#236 » by NYG » Sun May 31, 2020 1:24 pm

If you traded Kennard for a 2020 pick, which range would you expect in return?
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Manocad
RealGM
Posts: 62,509
And1: 7,937
Joined: Dec 13, 2005
Location: Middle Fingerton
Contact:
       

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#237 » by Manocad » Sun May 31, 2020 3:27 pm

NYG wrote:If you traded Kennard for a 2020 pick, which range would you expect in return?

It depends. Some posters on this board think he's worth a lottery pick in this year's draft. I'd give him up for a second round pick because I don't see him as anything more than a nice sixth man at best. He can shoot and he's smart but he's slow and has bad knees. And that's no disrespect to Kennard; he's just not what the Pistons should be hanging on to at this point IMO.
Image
BJK1
Ballboy
Posts: 23
And1: 8
Joined: Jun 23, 2019

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#238 » by BJK1 » Sun May 31, 2020 4:28 pm

The Pistons have money to spend this offseason, but I don’t want to see them go after a high priced FA yet. I do hope to see them get both a front court player and a PG in this draft. If they could draft Toppin or Okongwu in the lottery and somehow acquire another first round pick (maybe they buy one) to get Tre Jones, that would be a nice takeaway from this draft. Tre Jones isn’t a flashy guard, but he’s smart, steady, is improving as a shooter, and is already a really good perimeter defender. At a minimum, he’d develop into a good rotational guard.
Crymson
Senior
Posts: 580
And1: 217
Joined: Apr 17, 2016

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#239 » by Crymson » Mon Jun 1, 2020 5:35 am

In speaking of the rebuild, I am often reminded of the sheer incompetence that led the Pistons to this juncture. Stan Van Gundy was an absolute and utter disaster. It irks me that it took so many fans so long to understand that. And he was as bad a coach as he was a general manager.

edmunder_prc wrote: dont think Thon should be brought back. Even Henson who would be pretty good on a cheap contract, he shouldnt be brought back.

All vets should go. This team should be GS-esque next year. Get rid of Rose. Play Kennard at PG, maybe draft Edwards, play him at PG.

Tank. Build. Develop guys. Zero minutes for vets unless they are extremely team player. I like Galloway for example. Everyone on the team likes him, he has positive energy, he has special handshakes, he smiles all the time. That goes a LONG way for a team that might not win many games. On offense he gets the ball and shoots. He is not stopping a good offense, he is part of a good offense.


I'd give Thon one final look unless the Pistons nab the likes of Giles. At the least, Thon is, it is said, an excellent presence in the locker room.

Kennard isn't fit to start at point guard, and he doesn't really fit what the Pistons are aiming to do anyway. He's nearing his next contract and he's been injured every season. Better to offload him for picks.

Galloway is a ball-stopper, and he plays at the team's deepest position. He seems like a good dude, but he's a prime candidate to take minutes and usage away from younger players. That's doubly so given that Casey seems to strongly favor him no matter how well or poorly he plays.

NYG wrote:If you traded Kennard for a 2020 pick, which range would you expect in return?


Late lottery.

BJK1 wrote:The Pistons have money to spend this offseason, but I don’t want to see them go after a high priced FA yet. I do hope to see them get both a front court player and a PG in this draft. If they could draft Toppin or Okongwu in the lottery and somehow acquire another first round pick (maybe they buy one) to get Tre Jones, that would be a nice takeaway from this draft. Tre Jones isn’t a flashy guard, but he’s smart, steady, is improving as a shooter, and is already a really good perimeter defender. At a minimum, he’d develop into a good rotational guard.


Spending in the upcoming offseason would rank roughly at the top of the list of dumbest things the Pistons could do. The team requires at least another season of rebuilding in order to assemble the necessary young talent. Signing bad contracts in an effort to compete ASAP will almost undoubtedly lead to more mediocrity.

The likes of Okongwu or Toppin would be the exact wrong choices for the Pistons, who badly need a point guard or scoring wing with a high ceiling. Toppin played in an easy NCAA conference and has very likely reached or nearly reached his ceiling at age 22. He can't switch on defense and is locked in at power forward; for guys locked at that position, it's the second least important position in basketball. Okongwu plays at the least important position and may well never develop a shot. Neither of these guys has any sort of likelihood of becoming a franchise-changer. They're the sort of players to be taken when the more important positions have been addressed. The frontcourt is absolutely not a priority; the likes of power forward and center are very secondary in importance to point guard and the wing, positions at which the Pistons might as well currently have nobody given the awful dearth of talent there.
BJK1
Ballboy
Posts: 23
And1: 8
Joined: Jun 23, 2019

Re: Let's start the rebuild! 

Post#240 » by BJK1 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 6:37 pm

I agree that point guard or a big wing are more important positions. I’m just not very excited about the options at those positions where the Pistons will likely pick. Truth be told, I’m not all that excited about any of the options. They all have their warts. I just figured that with Obi, you’ll get a guy that can immediately contribute offensively, with a game that is very conducive to today’s NBA. In Okongwu, you get a guy with the tools to be an elite defensive player, with the athleticism and quickness to switch defensively all over the floor and the length and timing to be a great shot blocker face up or from the weak side.

Return to Detroit Pistons