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Dumars now interim GM of the Kings

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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#21 » by Invictus88 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:23 am

I'd welcome back Joe Dumars the basketball player with open arms. I can't say the same about him as a GM.

You can't look at the construction of the 2004 championship team and ignore the ineptitude that followed. If you credit him for architecting the championship with shrewd moves then you have to concede he made moves with intent when he systematically destroyed the franchise afterwards and left the cupboards bare.
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#22 » by Uncle Mxy » Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:13 am

I really hope that Dumars' relations with the Pistons organization become more normalized. Whatever you want to say about his moves as a GM and dismissal, he belongs at Bad Boys reunions and the like. He should feel and be welcomed in that capacity.
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#23 » by JNewton » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:17 pm

Uncle Mxy wrote:I really hope that Dumars' relations with the Pistons organization become more normalized. Whatever you want to say about his moves as a GM and dismissal, he belongs at Bad Boys reunions and the like. He should feel and be welcomed in that capacity.


Vince Ellis had tweeted that the organization invited him to the Bad Boys reunion and Palace Final Season events. The response was always that he had a "scheduling conflict."
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#24 » by Manocad » Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:45 pm

Yeah, I’d also say Dumars should be invited by the organization to anything tied to the Bad Boys or the ‘04 championship team, and if he doesn’t want to attend so be it. I’m a fan of the game itself and particular players while they’re on the team, after that none of the fanfare does much for me. Good for Joe but I don’t necessarily feel a need to wish him well. If he does well, cool, and if he doesn’t, oh well.
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#25 » by stylesofpunk » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:45 pm

Still pissed at the Billups/Iverson trade

You could tell that Billups was the heart of those going to work teams and after that trade the team lost its fire
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#26 » by Canadafan » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:26 pm

stylesofpunk wrote:Still pissed at the Billups/Iverson trade

You could tell that Billups was the heart of those going to work teams and after that trade the team lost its fire


Probably not a popular opinion but....
After the 2005 Finals it just seemed like we thought we were better than we were. Sheed and to a lesser extent Billups were frustrating as hell to watch. Sheed with the constant technicals and lazy play. We had a good run but once we lost Ben that pretty much ended our chances. Still made east finals up till 2008 but I see where he was going with clearing up cap room. Obviously what he did with the cap space was the bigger issue
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#27 » by Cowology » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:31 am

OK, so Kings hire a new GM and name Dumars chief strategy officer, or some **** like that. Wtf does that even mean??
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#28 » by Pharaoh » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:56 am

Cowology wrote:OK, so Kings hire a new GM and name Dumars chief strategy officer, or some **** like that. Wtf does that even mean??
Just a advisor ton ownership is my guess.

Joe has a good rep, it's been long enough that people will forget a lot of things.

This FO role suits him cause if they fail to do anything he wasn't the GM. If they succeed he was part of it.

Win-win for Joe D

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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#29 » by Crymson » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:51 pm

Canadafan wrote:
stylesofpunk wrote:Still pissed at the Billups/Iverson trade

You could tell that Billups was the heart of those going to work teams and after that trade the team lost its fire


Probably not a popular opinion but....
After the 2005 Finals it just seemed like we thought we were better than we were. Sheed and to a lesser extent Billups were frustrating as hell to watch. Sheed with the constant technicals and lazy play. We had a good run but once we lost Ben that pretty much ended our chances. Still made east finals up till 2008 but I see where he was going with clearing up cap room. Obviously what he did with the cap space was the bigger issue


Late to the party here, but I completely agree. Some of the issue was the team growing older and shallower; Dumars pretty much just sat on the core and did nothing to meaningfully improve it, an issue brought about in large part by his terrible drafting and overall poor asset-management. However, the Pistons were also fighting an uphill battle against the evolution of the NBA itself. The NBA took a bite out of the overall power of defense via the 2008 rules changes, and the Pistons were all about defense. The writing was on the wall from there. The team was in decline by default, and was in visible decline by 2008.

Dumars did the right thing in deciding to make changes to the roster, but he went about those changes in the most bumbling, incompetent manner conceivable. I know the guy is beloved amongst Pistons fans for his time with the Bad Boys and for building the Going to Work team, but my opinion is that he was never a competent GM to begin with. The way I see it, he caught lightning in a bottle and rode it for years until it didn't work, at which point his lack of competence became exceedingly clear as he spent his final five years on the job as the worst executive in the NBA. Through some good trades and signings, he unwittingly created a core that was much more than the sum of its parts. He let it wither, and then, when it was time to move on, he made a long series of abominably stupid decisions.
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#30 » by thesack12 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:50 am

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how Dumars "caught lightning in a bottle."

Identified and got a nobody named Ben Wallace in a sign and trade for Grant Hill.
Traded Rodney White for a 1st (which was eventually used to get Rasheed Wallace.)
Signed Billups to be his PG with the MLE, who up until then was passed around the league like a hot potato.
Drafted a complete unknown named Mehmet Okur in the 2nd round.
Drafted Tayshaun Prince, and elite perimeter defender and glue type guy in the late 1st.
Traded his then leading scorer (Stackhouse), for a young Rip Hamilton.
Traded for an alleged malcontent in Rasheed Wallace who fit like a glove.
Fired Rick Carlisle after back to back 50 win seasons and division titles in favor of Larry Brown.

An example of Catching lightning in a bottle would be the Ben Wallace move as a standalone move. However that is a series of moves that showed incredible vision and identification of talent/assets that had yet to be realized.

The list of GM's that have won championship's is not long. You don't luck into a championship, you compile pieces that are championship caliber and fit together, which Dumars did.

if anything Dumars was a victim of his own success. The standards and expectations become sky high, because he built such a successful team so quickly.
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#31 » by Canadafan » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:47 am

Crymson wrote:
Canadafan wrote:
stylesofpunk wrote:Still pissed at the Billups/Iverson trade

You could tell that Billups was the heart of those going to work teams and after that trade the team lost its fire


Probably not a popular opinion but....
After the 2005 Finals it just seemed like we thought we were better than we were. Sheed and to a lesser extent Billups were frustrating as hell to watch. Sheed with the constant technicals and lazy play. We had a good run but once we lost Ben that pretty much ended our chances. Still made east finals up till 2008 but I see where he was going with clearing up cap room. Obviously what he did with the cap space was the bigger issue


Late to the party here, but I completely agree. Some of the issue was the team growing older and shallower; Dumars pretty much just sat on the core and did nothing to meaningfully improve it, an issue brought about in large part by his terrible drafting and overall poor asset-management. However, the Pistons were also fighting an uphill battle against the evolution of the NBA itself. The NBA took a bite out of the overall power of defense via the 2008 rules changes, and the Pistons were all about defense. The writing was on the wall from there. The team was in decline by default, and was in visible decline by 2008.

Dumars did the right thing in deciding to make changes to the roster, but he went about those changes in the most bumbling, incompetent manner conceivable
. I know the guy is beloved amongst Pistons fans for his time with the Bad Boys and for building the Going to Work team, but my opinion is that he was never a competent GM to begin with. The way I see it, he caught lightning in a bottle and rode it for years until it didn't work, at which point his lack of competence became exceedingly clear as he spent his final five years on the job as the worst executive in the NBA. Through some good trades and signings, he unwittingly created a core that was much more than the sum of its parts. He let it wither, and then, when it was time to move on, he made a long series of abominably stupid decisions.


And1 for the bolded part :wink:
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#32 » by Canadafan » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:48 am

[quote="thesack12"]I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how Dumars "caught lightning in a bottle."

Identified and got a nobody named Ben Wallace in a sign and trade for Grant Hill.
Traded Rodney White for a 1st (which was eventually used to get Rasheed Wallace.)
Signed Billups to be his PG with the MLE, who up until then was passed around the league like a hot potato.
Drafted a complete unknown named Mehmet Okur in the 2nd round.
Drafted Tayshaun Prince, and elite perimeter defender and glue type guy in the late 1st.
Traded his then leading scorer (Stackhouse), for a young Rip Hamilton.
Traded for an alleged malcontent in Rasheed Wallace who fit like a glove.
Fired Rick Carlisle after back to back 50 win seasons and division titles in favor of Larry Brown.

An example of Catching lightning in a bottle would be the Ben Wallace move as a standalone move. However that is a series of moves that showed incredible vision and identification of talent/assets that had yet to be realized.

The list of GM's that have won championship's is not long. You don't luck into a championship, you compile pieces that are championship caliber and fit together, which Dumars did.

if anything Dumars was a victim of his own success. The standards and expectations become sky high, because he built such a successful team so quickly.[/quote]



And1 for the bolded part :P
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#33 » by Cowology » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:54 am

It's long been debated just how much was Dumars and how much was John Hammond. And at least on this board there wasn't a whole lot of rose colored support when things started to go sideways. Dumars received his fair share of criticism.

The thing about the GTW Pistons was Dumars was still under the radar when making those moves. And some of it was most definitely luck, or just sorta right place/right time. Nobody knew Ben was going to become the player he was. Hell, he only played 24mpg for ORL the year prior and looked more akin to another Jerome Williams (JYD!!). Billups was a solid pickup after having a good run with Terrell Brandon missing 50+ games, but Rip was basically gifted to us by Jordan who wanted a more established player in Stack. I will give Joe credit for going out and getting Sheed, when he was viewed as a cancer by a lot of people.

But Joe never drafted well (let's be honest; most GM's don't) and I think it got a lil harder for him as his rep for making shrewd moves grew. He also had to begin operating from a completely different platform; it's one thing to make incremental upgrades and build value, and another to try and hold an elite team together. We started throwing big money at the wrong players and could just never seem to pull ourselves outa that downward spiral.

Trading Billups might not have been a terrible move if we wanted to rebuild, but blowing money on the likes of CV & Gordon in order to try and remain relevant was a colossal blunder. I don't even wanna talk about JSmooth.

Anyway, I like Joe as somebody building a program. He just didn't know what to do once he reached the top. He could do very well a a special advisor in SacTown. Just don't give him the keys to the porche.
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#34 » by Pharaoh » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:56 am

Cowology wrote:It's long been debated just how much was Dumars and how much was John Hammond. And at least on this board there wasn't a whole lot of rose colored support when things started to go sideways. Dumars received his fair share of criticism.

The thing about the GTW Pistons was Dumars was still under the radar when making those moves. And some of it was most definitely luck, or just sorta right place/right time. Nobody knew Ben was going to become the player he was. Hell, he only played 24mpg for ORL the year prior and looked more akin to another Jerome Williams (JYD!!). Billups was a solid pickup after having a good run with Terrell Brandon missing 50+ games, but Rip was basically gifted to us by Jordan who wanted a more established player in Stack. I will give Joe credit for going out and getting Sheed, when he was viewed as a cancer by a lot of people.

But Joe never drafted well (let's be honest; most GM's don't) and I think it got a lil harder for him as his rep for making shrewd moves grew. He also had to begin operating from a completely different platform; it's one thing to make incremental upgrades and build value, and another to try and hold an elite team together. We started throwing big money at the wrong players and could just never seem to pull ourselves outa that downward spiral.

Trading Billups might not have been a terrible move if we wanted to rebuild, but blowing money on the likes of CV & Gordon in order to try and remain relevant was a colossal blunder. I don't even wanna talk about JSmooth.

Anyway, I like Joe as somebody building a program. He just didn't know what to do once he reached the top. He could do very well a a special advisor in SacTown. Just don't give him the keys to the porche.
I personally believe that the longer Joe was out of the game the more he lost his feel for what is required.

You're right that after he built that roster his rep would have worked against him, that the ownership position didn't help, that as our guys aged he didn't do much, that he drafted poorly (name a contributor other than Prince that lasted for any real length of time besides Okur cause that's different), that when he did have cap space he blew it...

But his choice of players - via draft, trade or free agency fell off a cliff after being in the office for so long.

I don't even want to look at his drafts from 2004 onwards (eliminate Darko from the equation).

I don't want to revist the trades of established players

I don't wanna look at Nova, BG, Smoove anymore!

The failure to draft, sign or trade for anyone of real value across such a long timeline...that's more than his rep or ownership.

That's on him losing sight IMO

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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#35 » by Canadafan » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:34 pm

This has absolutely nothing to do with Dumars but I didn't want to hijack a running thread.
Soooo....wanting to get a personalized license plate and need some ideas. Figure where better to come for help than with you jokers :P
I got
DETP2004
89 90 04 DP
DP3CHIPS
D3TROITP
D3TPSTNS(Z)

Help a brotha out
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#36 » by 440BB » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:51 pm

Canadafan wrote:This has absolutely nothing to do with Dumars but I didn't want to hijack a running thread.
Soooo....wanting to get a personalized license plate and need some ideas. Figure where better to come for help than with you jokers :P
I got
DETP2004
89 90 04 DP
DP3CHIPS
D3TROITP
D3TPSTNS(Z)

Help a brotha out

If it's a Michigan plate, PSTONES is still available. That's the first one that come to mind. Good luck deciding!
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#37 » by Canadafan » Thu Oct 1, 2020 12:00 am

440BB wrote:
Canadafan wrote:This has absolutely nothing to do with Dumars but I didn't want to hijack a running thread.
Soooo....wanting to get a personalized license plate and need some ideas. Figure where better to come for help than with you jokers :P
I got
DETP2004
89 90 04 DP
DP3CHIPS
D3TROITP
D3TPSTNS(Z)

Help a brotha out

If it's a Michigan plate, PSTONES is still available. That's the first one that come to mind. Good luck deciding!


Oooohhhh I like that one.
I can use 8characters its Canadian plate
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#38 » by 440BB » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:51 am

Canadafan wrote:
440BB wrote:
Canadafan wrote:This has absolutely nothing to do with Dumars but I didn't want to hijack a running thread.
Soooo....wanting to get a personalized license plate and need some ideas. Figure where better to come for help than with you jokers :P
I got
DETP2004
89 90 04 DP
DP3CHIPS
D3TROITP
D3TPSTNS(Z)

Help a brotha out

If it's a Michigan plate, PSTONES is still available. That's the first one that come to mind. Good luck deciding!


Oooohhhh I like that one.
I can use 8characters its Canadian plate

So NODUMARS is a possibility! :lol:
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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#39 » by ElectricMayhem » Thu Oct 1, 2020 12:05 pm

Canadafan wrote:I can use 8characters its Canadian plate


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Re: Dumars now interim GM of the Kings 

Post#40 » by Pharaoh » Thu Oct 1, 2020 10:39 pm

Canadafan wrote:
440BB wrote:
Canadafan wrote:This has absolutely nothing to do with Dumars but I didn't want to hijack a running thread.
Soooo....wanting to get a personalized license plate and need some ideas. Figure where better to come for help than with you jokers
I got
DETP2004
89 90 04 DP
DP3CHIPS
D3TROITP
D3TPSTNS(Z)

Help a brotha out

If it's a Michigan plate, PSTONES is still available. That's the first one that come to mind. Good luck deciding!


Oooohhhh I like that one.
I can use 8characters its Canadian plate
PSTONES3 then

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