RealGM

A full-page ad in the Sunday New York Times asks NBA Commissioner Adam Silvers and team owners: "If Black Lives Matter, What are You Doing About Detroit Pistons Owner Tom Gores?"

The ad, which appears on page 33 of the national edition, is sponsored by a non-profilt prison organization, Worth Rises, that is protesting Gores's Beverly Hills private equity firm, Platinum Equity, which owns one of the nation’s largest prison telecom corporations, Securus. It accuses the firm of predatory pricing for prisoner phone calls that particularly harm families of color...

https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/26936/full_page_ad_in_n

I'm glad they are working to make this front and center...or at least page 33 and center. I'm sure my sig has influenced millions of people. Hopefully the New York Times can catch a few hundred more.

Yeah like making phone call is cheap or even possible in any jail anyways. If they are worried about that crap I'm sure it's a national problem cause those phones are jokes and cost a ton for the other person to add a card on.

Or maybe he owns those ones as well

The premise is flawed. I don’t agree with the jacked up prices for anything in jail/prison—commissary items that cost double what they would in any retail store, phone calls, etc. However those costs affect anyone in jail or prison regardless of race. It’s still BS but that doesn’t make it racist or discriminatory because it affects everyone equally no matter what color their skin is.

Similar to Prop 48 which has been called a discriminatory rule because it affects more black athletes than white. It’s a number—2.0 GPA, period. That number doesn’t know what race the athlete is.

#1 Tom has been great about doing things for the community of Detroit and Flint.

#2 He has hired a black coach and GM and we're on a very short list of teams with both.

#3 He has profited off of a prison system that systematically targets minorities and they should have already changed and hopefully changes soon.

#4 He is in a position where he should/could operate that business at a loss to give inmates the ability to make free phone calls for the foreseeable future. He has the ability to turn this around in a positive way hopefully its something he does.

Tom Gores the businessman made his billions as an equity firm. It's the essence of buy low, sell high, don't care about the lives you build up or tear down. The fact that he made money exploiting systemic racism against Blacks I'm willing to bet is just one of many sins. Glad to see this on ESPN as a lead article yesterday.

Manocad wrote:The premise is flawed. I don’t agree with the jacked up prices for anything in jail/prison—commissary items that cost double what they would in any retail store, phone calls, etc. However those costs affect anyone in jail or prison regardless of race. It’s still BS but that doesn’t make it racist or discriminatory because it affects everyone equally no matter what color their skin is.

Similar to Prop 48 which has been called a discriminatory rule because it affects more black athletes than white. It’s a number—2.0 GPA, period. That number doesn’t know what race the athlete is.

Given that African Americans are more than double overrepresented in prisons, you don't see why this would be an issue of interest to BLM?

Side note: It's a testament to how irrelevant the Pistons are that it took this long for this to make it onto the radar. If Ballmer, Buss, Cuban etc. had been involved in something like this they'd have been all over it years ago.

Snakebites wrote:

Manocad wrote:The premise is flawed. I don’t agree with the jacked up prices for anything in jail/prison—commissary items that cost double what they would in any retail store, phone calls, etc. However those costs affect anyone in jail or prison regardless of race. It’s still BS but that doesn’t make it racist or discriminatory because it affects everyone equally no matter what color their skin is.

Similar to Prop 48 which has been called a discriminatory rule because it affects more black athletes than white. It’s a number—2.0 GPA, period. That number doesn’t know what race the athlete is.

Given that African Americans are more than double overrepresented in prisons, you don't see why this would be an issue of interest to BLM?

Side note: It's a testament to how irrelevant the Pistons are that it took this long for this to make it onto the radar. If Ballmer, Buss, Cuban etc. had been involved in something like this they'd have been all over it years ago.

I mean they all go through the same judges, court houses and prosecutors as the rest of us with every word and cough being wrote down a transcript so I see his point. Maybe back in the day they could pull a fast one on a black man but nowadays i dont see how.

For example every felony committed in any of these cities gets kicked downtown to Frank Murphy and when you go in front of a judge there's like 20-30 people all watching waiting for their turn next so ot would be pretty hard to discriminate unless your dumb with no lawyer and accepting stupid first plea offers.

The bigger sins are the apparatus that allows for such businesses like this to exist. I.e government entities that are so called "business friendly" aka we'll look the other way on lots of heinous things and allow shady things to accrue and snowball like the prison telecom industry. Michigan certainly isn't the first nor the last but it should at least get away from third party monopolies like Securus considering the costs for phone calls is basically nil at this point

It should be outlawed and Platinum Equity has to at least divest completely away from it. It's a fair call to at least demand for that instead of saying he should sell the team altogether. He isn't the perfect owner, but seeing worthless POSs like Tilman Fertitta and Donald Sterlings of the world, it could've been worse in the endless roulette of useless billionaires with too much money and time

MotownMadness wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

Manocad wrote:The premise is flawed. I don’t agree with the jacked up prices for anything in jail/prison—commissary items that cost double what they would in any retail store, phone calls, etc. However those costs affect anyone in jail or prison regardless of race. It’s still BS but that doesn’t make it racist or discriminatory because it affects everyone equally no matter what color their skin is.

Similar to Prop 48 which has been called a discriminatory rule because it affects more black athletes than white. It’s a number—2.0 GPA, period. That number doesn’t know what race the athlete is.

Given that African Americans are more than double overrepresented in prisons, you don't see why this would be an issue of interest to BLM?

Side note: It's a testament to how irrelevant the Pistons are that it took this long for this to make it onto the radar. If Ballmer, Buss, Cuban etc. had been involved in something like this they'd have been all over it years ago.

I mean they all go through the same judges, court houses and prosecutors as the rest of us with every word and cough being wrote down a transcript so I see his point. Maybe back in the day they could pull a fast one on a black man but nowadays i dont see how.

For example every felony committed in any of these cities gets kicked downtown to Frank Murphy and when you go in front of a judge there's like 20-30 people all watching waiting for their turn next so ot would be pretty hard to discriminate unless your dumb with no lawyer and accepting stupid first plea offers.

I don't really have any intention of getting into this debate, but so I'm clear, your position is that there is no racial bias in our laws and the application of them?

I figured I'd give you the chance to clarify just in case someone else chooses to devote their time to getting into this.

Snakebites wrote:

MotownMadness wrote:

Snakebites wrote:
Given that African Americans are more than double overrepresented in prisons, you don't see why this would be an issue of interest to BLM?

Side note: It's a testament to how irrelevant the Pistons are that it took this long for this to make it onto the radar. If Ballmer, Buss, Cuban etc. had been involved in something like this they'd have been all over it years ago.

I mean they all go through the same judges, court houses and prosecutors as the rest of us with every word and cough being wrote down a transcript so I see his point. Maybe back in the day they could pull a fast one on a black man but nowadays i dont see how.

For example every felony committed in any of these cities gets kicked downtown to Frank Murphy and when you go in front of a judge there's like 20-30 people all watching waiting for their turn next so ot would be pretty hard to discriminate unless your dumb with no lawyer and accepting stupid first plea offers.

I don't really have any intention of getting into this debate, but so I'm clear, your position is that there is no racial bias in our laws and the application of them?

I figured I'd give you the chance to clarify just in case someone else chooses to devote their time to getting into this.

Before we go any further I need to know how many times you've been arrested so I know you have a good intelligence and first hand experience dealing with these things. Have you ever even had to get a lawyer and work with prosecutors on please offers or go in front of a jury if you didnt like any of the plea offers?

Just wanna now what you know about the subject personally before going further.

Nobody goes to jail as a first time offender and every one has a right to a jury trial. Most people in jail I would assume are violating probation to many times but even then it takes quite a bit to get the max 90 days in jail for a misdemeanor or the max for a felony unless your a repeat offender or did something with a mandatory sentence which usually involves a gun. Like in NY just carrying a weapon can land you a 2 year mandatory sentence for a concealed weapon. Michigan you have to be commiting a felony with the weapon on you to get the 2 year mandatory

MotownMadness wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

MotownMadness wrote: I mean they all go through the same judges, court houses and prosecutors as the rest of us with every word and cough being wrote down a transcript so I see his point. Maybe back in the day they could pull a fast one on a black man but nowadays i dont see how.

For example every felony committed in any of these cities gets kicked downtown to Frank Murphy and when you go in front of a judge there's like 20-30 people all watching waiting for their turn next so ot would be pretty hard to discriminate unless your dumb with no lawyer and accepting stupid first plea offers.

I don't really have any intention of getting into this debate, but so I'm clear, your position is that there is no racial bias in our laws and the application of them?

I figured I'd give you the chance to clarify just in case someone else chooses to devote their time to getting into this.

Before we go any further I need to know how many times you've been arrested so I know you have a good intelligence and first hand experience dealing with these things. Have you ever even had to get a lawyer and work with prosecutors on please offers or go in front of a jury if you didnt like any of the plea offers?

Just wanna now what you know about the subject personally before going further.

Nobody goes to jail as a first time offender and every one has a right to a jury trial. Most people in jail I would assume are violating probation to many times but even then it takes quite a bit to get the max 90 days in jail for a misdemeanor or the max for a felony unless your a repeat offender.

Part of my motivation was to see how far I could in asking about this without getting a defensive response.

Turns out the answer was absolutely nowhere. I assure you, my lack of interest in having this debate with you is genuine. Experience tells me there's nothing to be gained, and this response has been a pretty strong vindication of that.

Have a good day.

And just so I'm not accused of dodging the question here, I have NEVER been to jail, needed to get a lawyer, or anything like that. If you think that makes my opinion on this matter invalid, you do you.

Snakebites wrote:

MotownMadness wrote:

Snakebites wrote:I don't really have any intention of getting into this debate, but so I'm clear, your position is that there is no racial bias in our laws and the application of them?

I figured I'd give you the chance to clarify just in case someone else chooses to devote their time to getting into this.

Before we go any further I need to know how many times you've been arrested so I know you have a good intelligence and first hand experience dealing with these things. Have you ever even had to get a lawyer and work with prosecutors on please offers or go in front of a jury if you didnt like any of the plea offers?

Just wanna now what you know about the subject personally before going further.

Nobody goes to jail as a first time offender and every one has a right to a jury trial. Most people in jail I would assume are violating probation to many times but even then it takes quite a bit to get the max 90 days in jail for a misdemeanor or the max for a felony unless your a repeat offender.

I just wanted to see how far I could in asking about this without getting a defensive response.

Turns out the answer was absolutely nowhere. I assure you, my lack of interest in having this debate with you is genuine. Experience tells me there's nothing to be gained, and this response has been a pretty strong vindication of that.

Have a good day.

Figured you just wanted to try and be a jerk about it as usual, Have a good day sir.

And yes you should have first hand experience on these things so you understand the process better than a CNN headline or something.

Snakebites wrote:

Manocad wrote:The premise is flawed. I don’t agree with the jacked up prices for anything in jail/prison—commissary items that cost double what they would in any retail store, phone calls, etc. However those costs affect anyone in jail or prison regardless of race. It’s still BS but that doesn’t make it racist or discriminatory because it affects everyone equally no matter what color their skin is.

Similar to Prop 48 which has been called a discriminatory rule because it affects more black athletes than white. It’s a number—2.0 GPA, period. That number doesn’t know what race the athlete is.

Given that African Americans are more than double overrepresented in prisons, you don't see why this would be an issue of interest to BLM?

Side note: It's a testament to how irrelevant the Pistons are that it took this long for this to make it onto the radar. If Ballmer, Buss, Cuban etc. had been involved in something like this they'd have been all over it years ago.

I said only that the premise was flawed, and that premise is that the business model needs to be addressed BECAUSE BLM thinks it should be. I never said it shouldn’t be of concern to BLM. Any system that allows businesses to extort prisoners is flawed period because it financially discriminates against ALL incarcerated people and should be of concern to anyone seeking an ethical penal system. This business practice is not new by any stretch of anyone’s virtue signaling imagination.

If you want to have a debate about overrepresentation of blacks in the penal system you picked the wrong post. That’s a legal system argument and not a concept I addressed.

And yes, I have been to jail. It may surprise you to learn that my white male privilege did me no good there. I had to pay just as much for phone calls and commissary items as the black inmates.

If we lose Gores, could the team leave town?

I’m one of those people that watches sports to escape politics and all the civil fighting on every level. Do I care about other people, yes. But I don’t need a professional athlete to get me “woke” about the state of our country and it’s injustices.

Should he cut ties with that prison phone system? Sure. But it looks like he’s already tanked the investment and is trying to make the phone calls more affordable.

Rich people do a lot of unethical ****. Been that way forever.

I don’t care about this.

Manocad wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

Manocad wrote:The premise is flawed. I don’t agree with the jacked up prices for anything in jail/prison—commissary items that cost double what they would in any retail store, phone calls, etc. However those costs affect anyone in jail or prison regardless of race. It’s still BS but that doesn’t make it racist or discriminatory because it affects everyone equally no matter what color their skin is.

Similar to Prop 48 which has been called a discriminatory rule because it affects more black athletes than white. It’s a number—2.0 GPA, period. That number doesn’t know what race the athlete is.

Given that African Americans are more than double overrepresented in prisons, you don't see why this would be an issue of interest to BLM?

Side note: It's a testament to how irrelevant the Pistons are that it took this long for this to make it onto the radar. If Ballmer, Buss, Cuban etc. had been involved in something like this they'd have been all over it years ago.

I said only that the premise was flawed, and that premise is that the business model needs to be addressed BECAUSE BLM thinks it should be. I never said it shouldn’t be of concern to BLM. Any system that allows businesses to extort prisoners is flawed period because it financially discriminates against ALL incarcerated people and should be of concern to anyone seeking an ethical penal system. This business practice is not new by any stretch of anyone’s virtue signaling imagination.

If you want to have a debate about overrepresentation of blacks in the penal system you picked the wrong post. That’s a legal system argument and not a concept I addressed.

And yes, I have been to jail. It may surprise you to learn that my white male privilege did me no good there. I had to pay just as much for phone calls and commissary items as the black inmates.

I don’t think anyone is alleging that this measure affects white prisoners less than black prisoners.

If you are African American it is twice as likely you’re being squeezed by a policy like this, hence the BLM interest.

And that’s true without factoring in why that disparity exists, which is a WHOLE other conversation that we’re in agreement this is the wrong place for.

I personally would prefer not to have an owner who made his money this way. I’d prefer if whatever dollars I put into this organization not go towards helping someone who does that.

We appear to be more or less on the same page as far as the ethics of the business last in general.

i haven't researched into this situation enough to form an opinion, just wanted to put this out there if people thought it was just tom gores (for better or worse) gauging inmates:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-activists-see-injustice-in-high-cost-of-phone-calls-from-ottawa-area/#:~:text=Bell%20Canada%20holds%20the%20contract,make%20the%20phone%20system%20free.

Isabel managed to top that monthly rate in just two calls. Her phone bill shows charges as high as $30.43 for single calls from the jail, each capped at 20 minutes. That squares with the experiences of other prisoners.

Bell Canada has the contract for Ontario prison cells and they are one of the companies who owns the raptors (along with Rogers Communications).

again, not saying it's right or wrong but from what little i've read about a response from Bell is that the rates are comparable to what you would pay at a pay phone, not a monthly household phone bill.

Tom Gores isn't the only one gauging inmates. Lots of people are making a profit on our criminal justice system. Ultimately, you can't really blame the businesses that take these contracts. That's just how capitalism works. If there is a way to make money on something, someone is going to step into that void and make money. If we don't want people profiteering off our justice system, then we need to change the laws. The state of michigan has plenty of market power to get a good deal on their telephone infrastructure and doesn't need a middle-man company like Gores involved at all.

In a past life decades ago, I delivered drugs to a prison as an occupational hazard. It wasn't part of what I was hired for, but I was considered trustworthy, and my team lead/predecessor was fired for stealing. I was way young, but even then I knew I was providing service to a prison with disproportional black imprisonment. I suspect the drugs were overpriced, even by medical industry standards, but it's 2020 and I still can''t tell you what reasonable prices are in most cases, so take FWIW. I know there was some kickback from my employer at the time, which is why the prison sourced from them and not, say, some random drug store chain nearer by. I just did my job, and I'm sure if I didn't do my job, someone else would.

Should I have been "woke" enough to realize how wrong this was?

I could argue both sides, but when I think about Securus and Gores, I think about this chapter of my life.

Snakebites wrote:If you are African American it is twice as likely you’re being squeezed by a policy like this, hence the BLM interest.

Yeah, I get it. Like that damn racist Prop 48 rule. You're affected by this practice if you go to jail, regardless of your skin color. It's not a black or white thing. I get having an issue with police who you believe either consciously or unconsciously treat black people differently than whites; same with the justice system/convictions/sentencing/etc. But saying this is a practice that needs address because it affects a larger percentage of blacks than whites is to me just another example of what happens when the demand for racism outpaces the supply. By your premise the entire idea of a penal system is racist/a concern for BLM. That's the flawed premise I'm referring to.

We're on the same page regarding the business ethics of gouging inmates who have no choice but to buy your product without having an alternative. But I don't give a flying f**k who the owner of that business is. Being irritated over the investments of the owner of a sports team to me is nothing more than looking for something to be pissed off about.

And has been stated previously, now that we live in a time where trials are recorded with audio, video and take place in front of a live audience, the idea that black men are being plucked off the street and railroaded into jail is laughable. As I said, I've been to jail; more than once. You know what I learned while I was in there? By and large the inmates are criminals, period. Doesn't matter what their skin color is and yes, a majority of them were black. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they did it anyway, and they actually accept their fate. Nobody was bitching that they didn't commit the crime and many of them even talked about openly going right back out and doing what got them put in jail in the first place. You want a BLM cause? Stop committing a disproportionate number of crimes. But that's just me. Don't want to get gouged by the costs of being in jail? Don't commit a crime that will put you in jail.