Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition?

[ducler]

Great night for the tank. Rockets and Wizards won. We loss.

Magic will play Lakers in LA tonight, opportunity for them to win a game.

DLo should be back in a week or so for Minny so that can help them a bit.

Raptors receive Blazers and Hornets receive Suns, both need to lose so that will strengthen our SRP.

[ducler]

Hornets SRP was ranked at 50th position before today's game. Now it's already up to 47th with their loss against Suns, and they're only 1.5 game above 42th pick.

Raptors SRP is currently ranked at 37th position, only 1.5 game above 35th pick and they face Blazers tonight.

[DetroitSho]

Hornets SRP was ranked at 50th position before today's game. Now it's already up to 47th with their loss against Suns, and they're only 1.5 game above 42th pick.

Raptors SRP is currently ranked at 37th position, only 1.5 game above 35th pick and they face Blazers tonight.

Nah man, Weaver got took to the cleaners on those trades.

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[DetroitSho]

Who would y'all say Franz Wagner's game projects to compare to?

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[Snakebites]

For what it’s worth, our “expected” placement based on our offensive and defensive ratings is actually 7th.

So per the data our record is actually significantly worse than it should be.

Are we SURE we haven’t been trying to lose?

[tmorgan]

Who would y'all say Franz Wagner's game projects to compare to?

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It’s a lazy comp, and he’s a slightly lower tier athlete, but Gordon Hayward makes sense. If Franz wants to survive in the NBA, though, his shot needs to get even better. The handle and vision is nice, but he’s not going to be able to get to his spots the way he does in college. Not quick enough.

I really don’t see him as a lottery pick. He should play another year, and I’m saying that not as a Michigan fan, but in general.

[DetroitSho]

Who would y'all say Franz Wagner's game projects to compare to?

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It’s a lazy comp, and he’s a slightly lower tier athlete, but Gordon Hayward makes sense. If Franz wants to survive in the NBA, though, his shot needs to get even better. The handle and vision is nice, but he’s not going to be able to get to his spots the way he does in college. Not quick enough.

I really don’t see him as a lottery pick. He should play another year, and I’m saying that not as a Michigan fan, but in general.

I almost ended my post with, "and please, no white guys". lol

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[DBC10]

For what it’s worth, our “expected” placement based on our offensive and defensive ratings is actually 7th.

So per the data our record is actually significantly worse than it should be.

Are we SURE we haven’t been trying to lose?

I think we're the top rank in terms of having the worst record but the least point differential out of all the losing teams according to a tweet

So yeah, the data does lend some credence that we're really competitive but somehow eeking these losses. In layman's terms, we're either really unlucky or we're really not THAT bad on paper especially in this Eastern conference with our current scoring output and defense

There's room for ways to dial up our tank even more

[NYPiston]

I think we're the top rank in terms of having the worst record but the least point differential out of all the losing teams according to synergy.

So yeah, the data does lend some credence that we're really competitive but somehow eeking these losses. In layman's terms, we're either really unlucky or we're really not as bad on paper especially in this Eastern conference with our current scoring output and defense

There's room for ways to dial up our tank even more

The Pistons have lost a ridiculous amount of close games. I can't recall many games at all (outside of the Bucks games) that they were blown out.

It goes back to what I said earlier in the season, their best player is worse than just about every other team's best player so they are always in tough in clutch situations which is pretty much how it has played out this season.

[Pharaoh]

Haven't you noticed that 2nds only count when we give them away, not when we get them back?

Narrative from some has been consistent since the off-season

Hornets SRP was ranked at 50th position before today's game. Now it's already up to 47th with their loss against Suns, and they're only 1.5 game above 42th pick.

Raptors SRP is currently ranked at 37th position, only 1.5 game above 35th pick and they face Blazers tonight.

Nah man, Weaver got took to the cleaners on those trades.

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[ducler]

Haven't you noticed that 2nds only count when we give them away, not when we get them back?

Narrative from some has been consistent since the off-season

Hornets SRP was ranked at 50th position before today's game. Now it's already up to 47th with their loss against Suns, and they're only 1.5 game above 42th pick.

Raptors SRP is currently ranked at 37th position, only 1.5 game above 35th pick and they face Blazers tonight.

Nah man, Weaver got took to the cleaners on those trades.

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The higher both will be, the better will be the opportunity for us to trade them for another first.

[edmunder_prc]

Haven't you noticed that 2nds only count when we give them away, not when we get them back?

Narrative from some has been consistent since the off-season

Hornets SRP was ranked at 50th position before today's game. Now it's already up to 47th with their loss against Suns, and they're only 1.5 game above 42th pick.

Raptors SRP is currently ranked at 37th position, only 1.5 game above 35th pick and they face Blazers tonight.

Nah man, Weaver got took to the cleaners on those trades.

[/url]

[/url]

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

[Pharaoh]

Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

Haven't you noticed that 2nds only count when we give them away, not when we get them back?

Narrative from some has been consistent since the off-season

Nah man, Weaver got took to the cleaners on those trades.

[/url]

[/url]

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

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[Invictus88]

Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

Haven't you noticed that 2nds only count when we give them away, not when we get them back?

Narrative from some has been consistent since the off-season

[/url]

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

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I'm in no way defending edmunder here as honestly I haven't taken the time to read much of this discussion and frankly I just don't care. However, calling out another person for purposely feigning ignorance and/or opportunistically leaving out facets of a conversation really is a pot calling a kettle black here.

It was uncanny just how often the 'bad' parts of the transactions Weaver made earlier this year were magically left out of your comments extolling his virtues in earlier threads. I've warmed up to him quite a bit since but it doesn't erase the fact that those events did happen. It was you who time and time again would be purposely oblivious to things like the waiving and stretching and sending out of draft picks during these discussions.

So I see great irony that you of all people is calling someone else out for doing the exact same thing.

[edmunder_prc]

Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

Haven't you noticed that 2nds only count when we give them away, not when we get them back?

Narrative from some has been consistent since the off-season

[/url]

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

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I made a simple call: Bad team shouldn't trade their picks out for the next 7-8 years. MIN learned that. I'm sure that GM thought he had a good plan.

Our 2021 second rounder would be nice to have, do you know what we got for trading that pick to NYK?

You don't have any counter to that, so you throw some shade. You do you.

[Pharaoh]

I repeatedly stated my case on Smith and Dedmon while people hated every single move.

At some point I just chose to focus on the areas where my opinion differed.

Funny how all these months later the Weaver haters are few and far between

Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

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I'm in no way defending edmunder here as honestly I haven't taken the time to read much of this discussion and frankly I just don't care. However, calling out another person for purposely feigning ignorance and/or opportunistically leaving out facets of a conversation really is a pot calling a kettle black here.

It was uncanny just how often the 'bad' parts of the transactions Weaver made earlier this year were magically left out of your comments extolling his virtues in earlier threads. I've warmed up to him quite a bit since but it doesn't erase the fact that those events did happen. It was you who time and time again would be purposely oblivious to things like the waiving and stretching and sending out of draft picks during these discussions.

So I see great irony that you of all people is calling someone else out for doing the exact same thing.

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[Pharaoh]

Since you chose to include the likely range of the Lakers 2nd I figured I'd mention the Raptors and Hornets 2nds to paint a complete picture.

Would it be nice if we owned our own 2nd? Absolutely! But we don't and while I could complain about us not owning our own 2nds for the foreseeable future I'm aware there are more important issues for this team and FO than IF they can find a diamond in the rough in the 31-45 range year after year.

We have too many young guys to develop simultaneously as it is IMO - you can't play them all or focus on them all. But that's a post for another time.

As stated it does appear that when we trade 2nds it's a major problem but when we acquire them they're not deemed important.

Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

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I made a simple call: Bad team shouldn't trade their picks out for the next 7-8 years. MIN learned that. I'm sure that GM thought he had a good plan.

Our 2021 second rounder would be nice to have, do you know what we got for trading that pick to NYK?

You don't have any counter to that, so you throw some shade. You do you.

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[DetroitSho]

Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

NYK gets the Pistons 2nd round pick. That will be 31-35.

Trading away picks from a team that is really bad - its hoping that the GM turns it around. MIN traded away a 1st round pick because their GM was sure they would get better.

If Weaver doesn't improve the team he traded away a bunch of picks in the 30s. Picks in the low 30s are not bad overall. There are plenty of hits and those guys stay in the league as backups.

Picks in the 50s, especially 55-60, how many of those picks matter? At that point the scouting talent of the GM doesnt matter, its a complete crap shoot. There are not 60 plus guys in college who can make an NBA team. There might be 30 and lots of GMs make poor choices so there are so players left at 34. But by 57, there arent many players that could even help a G-league team.

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I made a simple call: Bad team shouldn't trade their picks out for the next 7-8 years. MIN learned that. I'm sure that GM thought he had a good plan.

Our 2021 second rounder would be nice to have, do you know what we got for trading that pick to NYK?

You don't have any counter to that, so you throw some shade. You do you.

It's generally accepted on this board that SVG was a bad GM, yeah?

That 2nd got traded in what turned out to be a bad trade due to pressure from an even worse owner having given thee worst playoff mandate you'll see. NONE of that has to do with Weaver.

You absolutely trade picks 7 years out. Bad GMs trade future picks to save their job. Good GMs trade future picks to turn the team around now and make that future pick worse and irrelevant.

The problem people have with you is you can't even acknowledge that maybe, just MAYBE Weaver is trending in the good category. He's done enough in his short time to at least earn benefit of the doubt.

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[MotownMadness]

All this arguing and Weaver isn't even the one that traded that 2nd rounder

[Pharaoh]

Don't worry about details. Like all those 2nds we dealt in the Luke trade people blew up about before eventually they discovered those 2nds don't start to convey until the 2024 Draft

2021: ours to NY, we get TOR & CHA

2022: Most favorable of DET, CHI and LAL to WAS;

Less favorable of (i) LAL and (ii) more favorable of DET and CHI to CHI;

Less favorable of DET and CHI to SAC (via CHI swap for DET; via WAS swap of LAL for CHI or DET; via MEM to SAC)

As convoluted as that gets it...

Not sure when 2nds became this amazing commodity we had to keep track of to such a level - been on here 20 years and this is a first AFAIK

All this arguing and Weaver isn't even the one that traded that 2nd rounder

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