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Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition?

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Invictus88
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#401 » by Invictus88 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:14 am

Pharaoh wrote:I repeatedly stated my case on Smith and Dedmon while people hated every single move.

At some point I just chose to focus on the areas where my opinion differed.

Funny how all these months later the Weaver haters are few and far between
Invictus88 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Note how you've completely ignored the Raptors & Hornets 2nds in your analysis

Considering you're posts are always intelligent and knowledgeable it seems to be deliberate

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I'm in no way defending edmunder here as honestly I haven't taken the time to read much of this discussion and frankly I just don't care. However, calling out another person for purposely feigning ignorance and/or opportunistically leaving out facets of a conversation really is a pot calling a kettle black here.

It was uncanny just how often the 'bad' parts of the transactions Weaver made earlier this year were magically left out of your comments extolling his virtues in earlier threads. I've warmed up to him quite a bit since but it doesn't erase the fact that those events did happen. It was you who time and time again would be purposely oblivious to things like the waiving and stretching and sending out of draft picks during these discussions.

So I see great irony that you of all people is calling someone else out for doing the exact same thing.


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Revisionist history. I'm talking about the timeframe immediately following those transactions going forward. Was the window of time in which you acknowledged them mere seconds?

Who are the people who hated every single move? Most were really happy with how the draft went; or at least the first day of it. It wasn't until all of the trading and acquiring centers / waiving and stretching that people really started to question him.

Why is it funny that Weaver's haters are few and far between? At the time of all of those moves the totality of everything didn't even point completely to a rebuild when you looked at the transactions and quotes directly from him at the time. Things have obviously changed since towards a full tank as the veterans have all been cleared away but none of that had happened when most of these discussions took place. Nobody could have predicted Blake would be gone by this all-star break. Rose hadn't been traded the previous offseason when everyone agreed his value had been higher, etc.

I still don't like some of the things Weaver did but in totality he's done a good job. At this moment it looks like the ship is headed in a really good direction; and it's largely because of him. But if thiings did start to turn sour and we end up in a bad situation then I'd blame him for that too. Because he would deserve it. And I'd factor in everything along the way; instead of opportunistically omitting things to fit an agenda.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#402 » by Pharaoh » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:49 am

Think if you go back to the off-season I stated repeatedly that I saw the tank coming, saw the kids losing, saw us being a poor team record wise but that's really not the point.

There's no point banging on about things that happened months ago. We were talking about 2nd round picks, not the fact it took so long for some people to stop complaining and let things play out
Invictus88 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:I repeatedly stated my case on Smith and Dedmon while people hated every single move.

At some point I just chose to focus on the areas where my opinion differed.

Funny how all these months later the Weaver haters are few and far between
Invictus88 wrote:
I'm in no way defending edmunder here as honestly I haven't taken the time to read much of this discussion and frankly I just don't care. However, calling out another person for purposely feigning ignorance and/or opportunistically leaving out facets of a conversation really is a pot calling a kettle black here.

It was uncanny just how often the 'bad' parts of the transactions Weaver made earlier this year were magically left out of your comments extolling his virtues in earlier threads. I've warmed up to him quite a bit since but it doesn't erase the fact that those events did happen. It was you who time and time again would be purposely oblivious to things like the waiving and stretching and sending out of draft picks during these discussions.

So I see great irony that you of all people is calling someone else out for doing the exact same thing.


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Revisionist history. I'm talking about the timeframe immediately following those transactions going forward. Was the window of time in which you acknowledged them mere seconds?

Who are the people who hated every single move? Most were really happy with how the draft went; or at least the first day of it. It wasn't until all of the trading and acquiring centers / waiving and stretching that people really started to question him.

Why is it funny that Weaver's haters are few and far between? At the time of all of those moves the totality of everything didn't even point completely to a rebuild when you looked at the transactions and quotes directly from him at the time. Things have obviously changed since towards a full tank as the veterans have all been cleared away but none of that had happened when most of these discussions took place. Nobody could have predicted Blake would be gone by this all-star break. Rose hadn't been traded the previous offseason when everyone agreed his value had been higher, etc.

I still don't like some of the things Weaver did but in totality he's done a good job. At this moment it looks like the ship is headed in a really good direction; and it's largely because of him. But if thiings did start to turn sour and we end up in a bad situation then I'd blame him for that too. Because he would deserve it. And I'd factor in everything along the way; instead of opportunistically omitting things to fit an agenda.


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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#403 » by Invictus88 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:27 pm

Pharaoh wrote:Think if you go back to the off-season I stated repeatedly that I saw the tank coming, saw the kids losing, saw us being a poor team record wise but that's really not the point.

There's no point banging on about things that happened months ago. We were talking about 2nd round picks, not the fact it took so long for some people to stop complaining and let things play out
Invictus88 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:I repeatedly stated my case on Smith and Dedmon while people hated every single move.

At some point I just chose to focus on the areas where my opinion differed.

Funny how all these months later the Weaver haters are few and far between

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Revisionist history. I'm talking about the timeframe immediately following those transactions going forward. Was the window of time in which you acknowledged them mere seconds?

Who are the people who hated every single move? Most were really happy with how the draft went; or at least the first day of it. It wasn't until all of the trading and acquiring centers / waiving and stretching that people really started to question him.

Why is it funny that Weaver's haters are few and far between? At the time of all of those moves the totality of everything didn't even point completely to a rebuild when you looked at the transactions and quotes directly from him at the time. Things have obviously changed since towards a full tank as the veterans have all been cleared away but none of that had happened when most of these discussions took place. Nobody could have predicted Blake would be gone by this all-star break. Rose hadn't been traded the previous offseason when everyone agreed his value had been higher, etc.

I still don't like some of the things Weaver did but in totality he's done a good job. At this moment it looks like the ship is headed in a really good direction; and it's largely because of him. But if thiings did start to turn sour and we end up in a bad situation then I'd blame him for that too. Because he would deserve it. And I'd factor in everything along the way; instead of opportunistically omitting things to fit an agenda.


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The losing was never the problem detractors had with Weaver. Losing was the expectation and largely viewed as a means of finally getting off of the treadmill. I was just pointing out the blatant irony in your complaint of edmunder's post.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#404 » by Canadafan » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:59 pm

Do you guys think next year we'll be basically tanking for a high draft pick? I get the feeling Weaver has already talked Gores into that idea. Summer of 2022 after we draft Bates, we will have max cap space.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#405 » by guldakot » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:13 pm

Canadafan wrote:Do you guys think next year we'll be basically tanking for a high draft pick? I get the feeling Weaver has already talked Gores into that idea. Summer of 2022 after we draft Bates, we will have max cap space.


Well I honestly think that comes down to our youth. Once you add (hopefully) a green/cade/mobley/suggs to the team already composed of grant plumlee bey stewart lee hayes diallo JJ I don't think we will be bad enough to intentionally tank. We will at worst be back firmly in that picking 10-14 range, at best fighting for the 8 seed.

I think we have too much already in place to be truly aweful next season once we add a top 5 pick.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#406 » by uvgotnod » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:43 pm

Man, Houston shouldn't be as bad as they have been. Timberwolves are a disgrace with all the first pick overalls they have on that team. Wizards did us a favor by keeping Beal. I'm not quite sure what Orlando was thinking trading all their good players away?
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#407 » by Pharaoh » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:43 pm

Plumlee - Stewart
Grant - Sekou (?)
Bey - Jackson
2021 Pick - Diallo
Hayes - DSJ - Lee

Regardless of who the 2021 pick actually is I can't see us being a playoff contender unless the kids all develop a lot over the off-season.

We lack size, shooting, experience...

IMO this was always going to be a 2 year tank since we had Blake's contract hanging over us. Even with him gone the vast majority of his contract remains.

Assume we land a Lotto pick in the 4-8 range in 2022 we'd head into the free agency period with loads of cap space.

Future looks bright

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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#408 » by AnnArborpiston » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:17 pm

Trade Plumlee in the off season. Get rid of DSJ. I really like the presence of COJO as our third PG. Seems to be a great locker room guy

Stewart, minimum vet
Grant, Sekou
Bey, Jackson
2021 1st, Diallo
Hayes, Lee, COJO

That team should keep us in the bottom 8 teams, especially if we commit to playing Hayes big minutes.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#409 » by chrbal » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:52 pm

AnnArborpiston wrote:Trade Plumlee in the off season. Get rid of DSJ. I really like the presence of COJO as our third PG. Seems to be a great locker room guy

Stewart, minimum vet
Grant, Sekou
Bey, Jackson
2021 1st, Diallo
Hayes, Lee, COJO

That team should keep us in the bottom 8 teams, especially if we commit to playing Hayes big minutes.


Cory the player is fine. The problem is if we keep him, he gets paid $12.6 million. If we cut him he’s only guaranteed $2.4 million of that. Its almost irresponsible to keep him.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#410 » by Snakebites » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:59 pm

chrbal wrote:
AnnArborpiston wrote:Trade Plumlee in the off season. Get rid of DSJ. I really like the presence of COJO as our third PG. Seems to be a great locker room guy

Stewart, minimum vet
Grant, Sekou
Bey, Jackson
2021 1st, Diallo
Hayes, Lee, COJO

That team should keep us in the bottom 8 teams, especially if we commit to playing Hayes big minutes.


Cory the player is fine. The problem is if we keep him, he gets paid $12.6 million. If we cut him he’s only guaranteed $2.4 million of that. Its almost irresponsible to keep him.

There is absolutely zero chance we keep him at that salary.

The Kings probably built that into his contract to make him a trade asset down the line. It's likely how Cory was able to score that kind of yearly salary to begin with.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#411 » by chrbal » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:12 pm

Snakebites wrote:
chrbal wrote:
AnnArborpiston wrote:Trade Plumlee in the off season. Get rid of DSJ. I really like the presence of COJO as our third PG. Seems to be a great locker room guy

Stewart, minimum vet
Grant, Sekou
Bey, Jackson
2021 1st, Diallo
Hayes, Lee, COJO

That team should keep us in the bottom 8 teams, especially if we commit to playing Hayes big minutes.


Cory the player is fine. The problem is if we keep him, he gets paid $12.6 million. If we cut him he’s only guaranteed $2.4 million of that. Its almost irresponsible to keep him.

There is absolutely zero chance we keep him at that salary.

The Kings probably built that into his contract to make him a trade asset down the line. It's likely how Cory was able to score that kind of yearly salary to begin with.


Agreed, just tried to point out the bigger issue
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#412 » by Manocad » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:53 pm

guldakot wrote:
Canadafan wrote:Do you guys think next year we'll be basically tanking for a high draft pick? I get the feeling Weaver has already talked Gores into that idea. Summer of 2022 after we draft Bates, we will have max cap space.


Well I honestly think that comes down to our youth. Once you add (hopefully) a green/cade/mobley/suggs to the team already composed of grant plumlee bey stewart lee hayes diallo JJ I don't think we will be bad enough to intentionally tank. We will at worst be back firmly in that picking 10-14 range, at best fighting for the 8 seed.

I think we have too much already in place to be truly aweful next season once we add a top 5 pick.

I'm cool with that. If all the current kids plus this year's draft pick are good enough next season to win 35-40 games without a superstar that's a GOOD THING. That means they're all getting good quickly, which is what you'd want.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#413 » by ByeByeDre » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:27 am

guldakot wrote:
Well I honestly think that comes down to our youth. Once you add (hopefully) a green/cade/mobley/suggs to the team already composed of grant plumlee bey stewart lee hayes diallo JJ I don't think we will be bad enough to intentionally tank. We will at worst be back firmly in that picking 10-14 range, at best fighting for the 8 seed.

I think we have too much already in place to be truly aweful next season once we add a top 5 pick.


This.

Guldakot’s post is spot on.

This is why I think Troy Weaver is doing a bad job.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#414 » by Manocad » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:43 am

ByeByeDre wrote:
guldakot wrote:
Well I honestly think that comes down to our youth. Once you add (hopefully) a green/cade/mobley/suggs to the team already composed of grant plumlee bey stewart lee hayes diallo JJ I don't think we will be bad enough to intentionally tank. We will at worst be back firmly in that picking 10-14 range, at best fighting for the 8 seed.

I think we have too much already in place to be truly aweful next season once we add a top 5 pick.


This.

Guldakot’s post is spot on.

This is why I think Troy Weaver is doing a bad job.

So let me see if I have this right...you win a championship by building a team that’s NOT good?
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#415 » by buzzkilloton » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:56 am

ByeByeDre wrote:
guldakot wrote:
Well I honestly think that comes down to our youth. Once you add (hopefully) a green/cade/mobley/suggs to the team already composed of grant plumlee bey stewart lee hayes diallo JJ I don't think we will be bad enough to intentionally tank. We will at worst be back firmly in that picking 10-14 range, at best fighting for the 8 seed.

I think we have too much already in place to be truly aweful next season once we add a top 5 pick.


This.

Guldakot’s post is spot on.

This is why I think Troy Weaver is doing a bad job.


If we end up back in 8 seed range next year coming out with one 5-8 pick then yeah we did it wrong and we are just back on the treadmill. We really need two big time talents in the draft to ever do anything. I honestly look at the process as it should be at least 3 years thats why i wasnt a fan of Grant,Plumlee,Wright and Ellington being brought in.

I warmed to Grant because he looked very tradeable but we might of already missed the sell high window hes been awful lately. If we just hold him for the next few years and end up in 8 seed range with him then its actually counterproductive for the rebuild.

Overall i like Weavers drafting im not sure on the fa moves but theirs a real chance the end result is the same ****. We really need to draft two big time talents to do this right. I was thinking 3 seasons min but if people think next season were too good and 8seedable and thats true ill be disappointed.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#416 » by Piston Pete » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:08 am

Pharaoh wrote:Plumlee - Stewart
Grant - Sekou (?)
Bey - Jackson
2021 Pick - Diallo
Hayes - DSJ - Lee

Regardless of who the 2021 pick actually is I can't see us being a playoff contender unless the kids all develop a lot over the off-season.

We lack size, shooting, experience...

IMO this was always going to be a 2 year tank since we had Blake's contract hanging over us. Even with him gone the vast majority of his contract remains.

Assume we land a Lotto pick in the 4-8 range in 2022 we'd head into the free agency period with loads of cap space.

Future looks bright

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Depending on the 2021 pick, that team could be in the 8-10 seed range in the East range.

If we want another tank season, we will have to explore trade options involving Grant and/or Plumlee this offseason.
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#417 » by ByeByeDre » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:16 am

buzzkilloton wrote:
ByeByeDre wrote:
guldakot wrote:
Well I honestly think that comes down to our youth. Once you add (hopefully) a green/cade/mobley/suggs to the team already composed of grant plumlee bey stewart lee hayes diallo JJ I don't think we will be bad enough to intentionally tank. We will at worst be back firmly in that picking 10-14 range, at best fighting for the 8 seed.

I think we have too much already in place to be truly aweful next season once we add a top 5 pick.


This.

Guldakot’s post is spot on.

This is why I think Troy Weaver is doing a bad job.


If we end up back in 8 seed range next year coming out with one 5-8 pick then yeah we did it wrong and we are just back on the treadmill. We really need two big time talents in the draft to ever do anything. I honestly look at the process as it should be at least 3 years thats why i wasnt a fan of Grant,Plumlee,Wright and Ellington being brought in.

I warmed to Grant because he looked very tradeable but we might of already missed the sell high window hes been awful lately. If we just hold him for the next few years and end up in 8 seed range with him then its actually counterproductive for the rebuild.

Overall i like Weavers drafting im not sure on the fa moves but theirs a real chance the end result is the same ****. We really need to draft two big time talents to do this right. I was thinking 3 seasons min but if people think next season were too good and 8seedable and thats true ill be disappointed.


Bingo - when you look beyond the “wow! Shiny new toys!” stage, you see a team that retooled, not a team that rebuilt. I really enjoy watching Grant play, but, as I’ve said many times before, I have no idea why he’s a Piston. I enjoy Plumlee too, but same thing. I don’t care if Dedmon’s 500 pounds - his contract, like Joseph’s, would have come in very handy this summer. And the fact that our first rounder is tied up for the next six years is nauseating.

I could go on and on, but I’ll stop for now. It’s a retool, not a rebuild. And teams with the worst situation in the league, when they retool, well.......
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#418 » by Manocad » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:32 am

So tank, get a high draft pick, somehow continue to be really bad even though you drafted a really good player, draft another really good player but continue to be bad so you can draft another really good player...yeah, that makes sense. Of course it completely overlooks the reality that drafting really good players means the team won’t be bad anymore, but hey, never let reality get in the way of a proper rebuild. :lol:
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#419 » by Piston Pete » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:37 am

Tell that to the Wolves, Cavs, and Kings
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Re: Race to the bottom: Who's our biggest competition? 

Post#420 » by ByeByeDre » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:12 am

Piston Pete wrote:
Depending on the 2021 pick, that team could be in the 8-10 seed range in the East range.

If we want another tank season, we will have to explore trade options involving Grant and/or Plumlee this offseason.


Thank you. Another sees the light.

So.... does Grant, with a reasonable contract, have more value with three years on his deal or two? How about Plumlee? Same thing.....

Retool, not rebuild
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