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Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks

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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#61 » by DetroitSho » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:05 pm

Refresh my memory. I'm trying to remember a you Dragic coming up behind Steve Nash. I remember him being lefthand dominant. But wasn't he a pretty mediocre shooter to start too?

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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#62 » by Manocad » Sat May 1, 2021 1:33 am

flow wrote:Lol. Please. We'll be doing cartwheels if Hayes approaches Rondo status as a floor general. He's a savant.

The context of the statement was specific to his offense.
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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#63 » by zeebneeb » Sat May 1, 2021 8:09 pm

flow wrote:Lol. Please. We'll be doing cartwheels if Hayes approaches Rondo status as a floor general. He's a savant.
Just as a reminder as your comment seems ignorant of what Killian is doing exactly;

Killian Hayes is 3rd amongst rookies in assists per game, and in less minutes per game then your vaunted savant Rondo, he is averaging a full assist more then Rondo's rookie year. (3.8pg vs Killian 4.8pg)
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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#64 » by tmorgan » Sat May 1, 2021 10:23 pm

zeebneeb wrote:
flow wrote:Lol. Please. We'll be doing cartwheels if Hayes approaches Rondo status as a floor general. He's a savant.
Just as a reminder as your comment seems ignorant of what Killian is doing exactly;

Killian Hayes is 3rd amongst rookies in assists per game, and in less minutes per game then your vaunted savant Rondo, he is averaging a full assist more then Rondo's rookie year. (3.8pg vs Killian 4.8pg)


To be fair, rookie Rondo was an arrogant little a-hole playing with Boston’s Big 3. His job was to annoy his matchup and move the ball. He got some assists to Allen, I imagine, but Pierce did a lot of the engineering.
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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#65 » by El Chivo » Sat May 1, 2021 10:26 pm

Rondo was 8th in MVP race in 2012 and 10th in 2011. Also thanks to his approach in the offensive side of the ball.
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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#66 » by DetroitSho » Sat May 1, 2021 10:55 pm

tmorgan wrote:
zeebneeb wrote:
flow wrote:Lol. Please. We'll be doing cartwheels if Hayes approaches Rondo status as a floor general. He's a savant.
Just as a reminder as your comment seems ignorant of what Killian is doing exactly;

Killian Hayes is 3rd amongst rookies in assists per game, and in less minutes per game then your vaunted savant Rondo, he is averaging a full assist more then Rondo's rookie year. (3.8pg vs Killian 4.8pg)


To be fair, rookie Rondo was an arrogant little a-hole playing with Boston’s Big 3. His job was to annoy his matchup and move the ball. He got some assists to Allen, I imagine, but Pierce did a lot of the engineering.
There was no big 3 during Rondo's rookie year.

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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#67 » by tmorgan » Sat May 1, 2021 11:04 pm

DetroitSho wrote:
tmorgan wrote:
zeebneeb wrote:Just as a reminder as your comment seems ignorant of what Killian is doing exactly;

Killian Hayes is 3rd amongst rookies in assists per game, and in less minutes per game then your vaunted savant Rondo, he is averaging a full assist more then Rondo's rookie year. (3.8pg vs Killian 4.8pg)


To be fair, rookie Rondo was an arrogant little a-hole playing with Boston’s Big 3. His job was to annoy his matchup and move the ball. He got some assists to Allen, I imagine, but Pierce did a lot of the engineering.
There was no big 3 during Rondo's rookie year.

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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#68 » by Snakebites » Sun May 2, 2021 4:03 pm

Rondo in his prime benefitted massively from skilled players.

He’s not like Kidd or Nash where his passing/playmaking actually created higher percentage scoring opportunities than you’d get without him. He mostly passed to skilled players who were able to make long range of harder shots. Remember- the point guard gets an assist no matter how much skill it took to make the shot after receiving the pass, and the guy who generates easy opportunities for teammates deserves a lot more credit than the guy who hands it off to skilled shooters and finishers- I'd say Rondo is definitely the latter. I'd love to see Hayes become the former, even if he never reaches the heights of Kidd or Nash in that regard.

That’s not to say Rondo is a worthless player- he was a good passer as a supporting piece and of course he had value defensively, but to say he’s the bar as a playmaker rings false for me.

Rondo is a good example for this thread though- of a guys who’s scoring limitations cap his ability to help other players offensively. As an overall offensive player, if Hayes becomes like Rondo offensively, especially without the defense young Rondo had, that wouldn't be considered a great outcome for the 7th pick, and wouldn't be someone I'd want starting unless we had Pierce/KG/Allen or Kawhi/PG13 or whatever. Which we in all likelihood would not.

Watched a great video on the subject a few months back. Don't remember where it was though.
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Re: Killian Hayes set to return Saturday vs Knicks 

Post#69 » by flow » Mon May 3, 2021 2:59 pm

zeebneeb wrote:
flow wrote:Lol. Please. We'll be doing cartwheels if Hayes approaches Rondo status as a floor general. He's a savant.
Just as a reminder as your comment seems ignorant of what Killian is doing exactly;

Killian Hayes is 3rd amongst rookies in assists per game, and in less minutes per game then your vaunted savant Rondo, he is averaging a full assist more then Rondo's rookie year. (3.8pg vs Killian 4.8pg)


I know full well what Hayes is doing. I'm very pleased with his passing ability and his court vision. As you'll recall, I informed you 5 years ago, much to your consternation, that RJ was inadequate as a point guard because he lacked both. But Hayes has a long way to go. And not just shooting & scoring. He's slow, he can't break guys down, he makes some poor decisions, and as we've all talked about, he can't go right/use his right. Those could & should all improve with time.

But to presume that assist numbers alone is what makes Rondo great is, well, ignorant. When he's locked in, he's so instinctive, he can control the entire game. He doesn't just get the ball to the right place at the right time, he orchestrates/directs everything his teammates are doing on floor. On defense too, not just offense. He knows what's coming and is calling out their play before the opposing offense gets into its set. He makes everyone he's on the floor with better. Back in 2017, round 1 of the playoffs, Rondo completely dominated and controlled games 1 & 2. He was on the #8 Bulls, who were playing the #1 Celtics. Games 1 & 2 were in Boston, and the Bulls won both, behind Rondo. Rondo fractured his thumb towards the end of game 2, so he was lost for the rest of the series. Chicago went on to lose 4 straight. That's the epitome of the impact a lead guard can have without being a scorer. That's the point that was being made earlier in the thread. If Hayes doesn't become a reliable scorer/shooter, he can still become an elite-level point guard if he patterns Rondo, especially since he has already shown some of his passing ability.

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