GAME 66 : Hornets @ Pistons 7PM

[DetroitSho]

The only reason I’m judging Killian so early is because from what Grant is saying and the reports we’re getting from the inside, we will probably be fighting for the playoffs next year. So to me, that means they think they pretty much have their team in mind. Does that include Killian at the starting point guard position? Is Killian a starting point guard on a playoff team right now? If not, I’m not sure how you can think you’ll be fighting for a playoff spot with so much uncertainty at such an important position.

I hate titles like "starter on a championship team" or "starter on a playoff team" because they mean absolutely ZERO in a vacuum. Every player in the NBA can be a starter on a championship team, let alone a starter on a playoff team under the right circumstances. Guess like Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic were starters on championship teams.

There's alot of average/below average starters on playoff teams with zero elite skill. At least Killian is showing elite vision and potentially elite passing and defense. That's at worst a starter on a playoff team. At worst he's a better passing Eric Bledsoe caliber guy.

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[zeebneeb]

The only reason I’m judging Killian so early is because from what Grant is saying and the reports we’re getting from the inside, we will probably be fighting for the playoffs next year. So to me, that means they think they pretty much have their team in mind. Does that include Killian at the starting point guard position? Is Killian a starting point guard on a playoff team right now? If not, I’m not sure how you can think you’ll be fighting for a playoff spot with so much uncertainty at such an important position.

If you take Hayes' averages this year at 24.1 minutes/game playing with mostly bench players and project them over 35 minutes/game he'd be at 8.3 points, 7.3 assists and 3.6 rebounds. Now, is that championship level PG play? Of course not. But that's a long way from "Man, this guy is killing us" numbers. Put him out there with Grant, Stew and Bey for 35 minutes a game and I'd bet he'd get to 10 PPG and 9-10 APG instantly with zero improvement from where he is now. And if he gains some offensive improvement to 14-15 PPG and 10 APG? Now you're talking playoff PG production for sure.

See, now your getting to the meat of it but please allow me to further what your saying so that no words are minced with folks who are rushing to judgment on a 19 year old rookie.

Everything you stated is indeed correct, but, you forgot to add that he played only 8 game, missed 3 months, and then has played an additional 13 games, separated by an injury.

The kid has played a grand total of 21 games. 21 games separated by injury and 3 months.

This is all the while showing special court vision very few players just have innately, pretty damn good defense for a rookie, and of course his size at the position.

I won't start judgment on Hayes, like honest to God, concrete judgment until he plays at least a full season, and while remembering that certain players take years to come into their own. This further baffles me as Piston fans should know better as there were two players who took longer then most to develope and when they did, they won us, the fans, a title. (Billups, Big Ben)

Drawing any conclusions save for the fact that he has court vision, and plays defense is way, way to early.

[FloridaMan78]

The only reason I’m judging Killian so early is because from what Grant is saying and the reports we’re getting from the inside, we will probably be fighting for the playoffs next year. So to me, that means they think they pretty much have their team in mind. Does that include Killian at the starting point guard position? Is Killian a starting point guard on a playoff team right now? If not, I’m not sure how you can think you’ll be fighting for a playoff spot with so much uncertainty at such an important position.

If you take Hayes' averages this year at 24.1 minutes/game playing with mostly bench players and project them over 35 minutes/game he'd be at 8.3 points, 7.3 assists and 3.6 rebounds. Now, is that championship level PG play? Of course not. But that's a long way from "Man, this guy is killing us" numbers. Put him out there with Grant, Stew and Bey for 35 minutes a game and I'd bet he'd get to 10 PPG and 9-10 APG instantly with zero improvement from where he is now. And if he gains some offensive improvement to 14-15 PPG and 10 APG? Now you're talking playoff PG production for sure.

See, now your getting to the meat of it but please allow me to further what your saying so that no words are minced with folks who are rushing to judgment on a 19 year old rookie.

Everything you stated is indeed correct, but, you forgot to add that he played only 8 game, missed 3 months, and then has played an additional 13 games, separated by an injury.

The kid has played a grand total of 21 games. 21 games separated by injury and 3 months.

This is all the while showing special court vision very few players just have innately, pretty damn good defense for a rookie, and of course his size at the position.

I won't start judgment on Hayes, like honest to God, concrete judgment until he plays at least a full season, and while remembering that certain players take years to come into their own. This further baffles me as Piston fans should know better as there were two players who took longer then most to develope and when they did, they won us, the fans, a title. (Billups, Big Ben)

Drawing any conclusions save for the fact that he has court vision, and plays defense is way, way to early.

Absolutely agree with this. It will take time for Killian to develop. And he should be on the bench getting 20-25 min a game developing for the next couple years while we are making the playoffs.

[NYPiston]

Absolutely agree with this. It will take time for Killian to develop. And he should be on the bench getting 20-25 min a game developing for the next couple years while we are making the playoffs.

Why do you keep saying this as if the Pistons are on the verge of making the playoffs? I think you're taking Grant's comments about them wanting to compete next season too literally. What else is he supposed to say? That's he's on board with another tank?

The fact of the matter is that next season is another development year so Hayes in all likelihood will be the starter to start the season then see where that takes him. I'm sure Weaver will add some free agents and hope that they make a push for a play in spot but I don't think his moves this offseason will be driven for the sole purpose of making the playoffs. It will be another development year most likely and Killian will be a big part of that for better or worse.

[FloridaMan78]

Why do you keep saying this as if the Pistons are on the verge of making the playoffs? I think you're taking Grant's comments about them wanting to compete next season too literally. What else is he supposed to say? That's he's on board with another tank?

The fact of the matter is that next season is another development year so Hayes in all likelihood will be the starter to start the season then see where that takes him. I'm sure Weaver will add some free agents and hope that they make a push for a play in spot but I don't think his moves this offseason will be driven for the sole purpose of making the playoffs. It will be another development year most likely and Killian will be a big part of that for better or worse.

Like I said before I agree with this. If next year is a development year (tank year) Killian Hayes will be starting. If they are aiming for the playoffs Killian will be on the bench. I guess we’ll find out beginning of next year where the Pistons think they are.

[Invictus88]

Why do you keep saying this as if the Pistons are on the verge of making the playoffs? I think you're taking Grant's comments about them wanting to compete next season too literally. What else is he supposed to say? That's he's on board with another tank?

The fact of the matter is that next season is another development year so Hayes in all likelihood will be the starter to start the season then see where that takes him. I'm sure Weaver will add some free agents and hope that they make a push for a play in spot but I don't think his moves this offseason will be driven for the sole purpose of making the playoffs. It will be another development year most likely and Killian will be a big part of that for better or worse.

This. You beat me to the punch NYPiston.

This is basically year 1 of a rebuild. Everything prior to this year was using backhoes to clear away debris left from previous regimes.

We're going to be adding in another top 10 (hopefully way better) pick in this year's draft and 3 2nd rounders (barring trades). Knowing Weaver it's likely going to be another active offseason of trades / revamping the roster.

We're still trying to identify who our core players are to build around. Making playoff runs and making decisions who plays and when based off of that is way, way, way premature.

[Invictus88]

Why do you keep saying this as if the Pistons are on the verge of making the playoffs? I think you're taking Grant's comments about them wanting to compete next season too literally. What else is he supposed to say? That's he's on board with another tank?

The fact of the matter is that next season is another development year so Hayes in all likelihood will be the starter to start the season then see where that takes him. I'm sure Weaver will add some free agents and hope that they make a push for a play in spot but I don't think his moves this offseason will be driven for the sole purpose of making the playoffs. It will be another development year most likely and Killian will be a big part of that for better or worse.

Like I said before I agree with this. If next year is a development year (tank year) Killian Hayes will be starting. If they are aiming for the playoffs Killian will be on the bench. I guess we’ll find out beginning of next year where the Pistons think they are.

Next year will be a development year. It won't necessarily be a tank year. The two are not necessarily synonymous with each other.

And honestly, if Killian is on the bench then who is going to be starting? Saben Lee? Are we really going to go sign a presumably expensive veteran PG simply to try and make a playoff run? It just doesn't make any logical sense after what we've done this past year.

[DetroitSho]

Why do you keep saying this as if the Pistons are on the verge of making the playoffs? I think you're taking Grant's comments about them wanting to compete next season too literally. What else is he supposed to say? That's he's on board with another tank?

The fact of the matter is that next season is another development year so Hayes in all likelihood will be the starter to start the season then see where that takes him. I'm sure Weaver will add some free agents and hope that they make a push for a play in spot but I don't think his moves this offseason will be driven for the sole purpose of making the playoffs. It will be another development year most likely and Killian will be a big part of that for better or worse.

Like I said before I agree with this. If next year is a development year (tank year) Killian Hayes will be starting. If they are aiming for the playoffs Killian will be on the bench. I guess we’ll find out beginning of next year where the Pistons think they are.

Dude Killian Hayes will be the starting PG next season regardless.

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[Manocad]

The only reason I’m judging Killian so early is because from what Grant is saying and the reports we’re getting from the inside, we will probably be fighting for the playoffs next year. So to me, that means they think they pretty much have their team in mind. Does that include Killian at the starting point guard position? Is Killian a starting point guard on a playoff team right now? If not, I’m not sure how you can think you’ll be fighting for a playoff spot with so much uncertainty at such an important position.

If you take Hayes' averages this year at 24.1 minutes/game playing with mostly bench players and project them over 35 minutes/game he'd be at 8.3 points, 7.3 assists and 3.6 rebounds. Now, is that championship level PG play? Of course not. But that's a long way from "Man, this guy is killing us" numbers. Put him out there with Grant, Stew and Bey for 35 minutes a game and I'd bet he'd get to 10 PPG and 9-10 APG instantly with zero improvement from where he is now. And if he gains some offensive improvement to 14-15 PPG and 10 APG? Now you're talking playoff PG production for sure.

You left out the 4.5 turnovers in those projected numbers. Right now I think he’s making too many mistakes to be a starting point guard on a playoff team. 20-25 mpg backup for sure. He could turn it around next season which I really hope so. I think he will be a starting point guard on a good team one day, probably by year 4. I just don’t think the plan is for Killian to be the starter next year unless we are tanking again.

You can cut those TO's in half right now for being fumbled passes that get counted as TO's against Hayes.

The point remains. Any talk about how a 19 year old kid 21 games into his rookie season after coming off an injury should be looked at as a potential bust or having an inability to score is completely premature. It would be one thing if he were shooting airballs or getting stripped every time he went to the hole, but that's hardly the case. And if the Pistons truly were looking to make a playoff push next year and don't make it because Killian hasn't improved enough yet, so what? The team will do what it needs to do and move on.

[Sort]

What's interesting to me is both how close Pistons are to being a legit playoff team and how far. First, any talk about playoffs really means they drafted the win-now player in the top five. I don't follow college, so I will leave that to others.

That said, there's a huge difference between being competitive and actually winning. Grizzlies are a great example. Transcendent player? Yep. Lots of young guys? Yep. Showing real growth? Yep. Only a five hundred team that struggles at maintaining a high level of play that wins multiple games? Yep.

I think there will be a similar growth pattern for the Pistons, but being in the East, that likely means playoffs.

[Manocad]

What's interesting to me is both how close Pistons are to being a legit playoff team and how far. First, any talk about playoffs really means they drafted the win-now player in the top five. I don't follow college, so I will leave that to others.

That said, there's a huge difference between being competitive and actually winning. Grizzlies are a great example. Transcendent player? Yep. Lots of young guys? Yep. Showing real growth? Yep. Only a five hundred team that struggles at maintaining a high level of play that wins multiple games? Yep.

I think there will be a similar growth pattern for the Pistons, but being in the East, that likely means playoffs.

The Pistons this season have a per game points differential of -4.0. Given their record that tells you they're in almost every game, which obviously we know. You add another 15-18 PPG starter to this team, right now, who plays decent defense and that gets you closer to a break even win differential which generally means you're playing .500 ball and shooting for a 7-8 seed. Now let's say that player is 20-22 PPG guy with decent D and good clutch ability. Now maybe you're looking at a +3-4 points per game winning differential and a 5-6 seed. Could that be a drafted rookie? Yeah, I could see that from Cade, Suggs or Green. Likely? Probably not. But possible? Absolutely.

[FloridaMan78]

If you take Hayes' averages this year at 24.1 minutes/game playing with mostly bench players and project them over 35 minutes/game he'd be at 8.3 points, 7.3 assists and 3.6 rebounds. Now, is that championship level PG play? Of course not. But that's a long way from "Man, this guy is killing us" numbers. Put him out there with Grant, Stew and Bey for 35 minutes a game and I'd bet he'd get to 10 PPG and 9-10 APG instantly with zero improvement from where he is now. And if he gains some offensive improvement to 14-15 PPG and 10 APG? Now you're talking playoff PG production for sure.

You left out the 4.5 turnovers in those projected numbers. Right now I think he’s making too many mistakes to be a starting point guard on a playoff team. 20-25 mpg backup for sure. He could turn it around next season which I really hope so. I think he will be a starting point guard on a good team one day, probably by year 4. I just don’t think the plan is for Killian to be the starter next year unless we are tanking again.

You can cut those TO's in half right now for being fumbled passes that get counted as TO's against Hayes.

The point remains. Any talk about how a 19 year old kid 21 games into his rookie season after coming off an injury should be looked at as a potential bust or having an inability to score is completely premature. It would be one thing if he were shooting airballs or getting stripped every time he went to the hole, but that's hardly the case. And if the Pistons truly were looking to make a playoff push next year and don't make it because Killian hasn't improved enough yet, so what? The team will do what it needs to do and move on.

I don’t think we’re that far off. I definitely don’t think Killians a bust. I do think he needs some time develop.

I just think the other guys on the team really feel like they have a chance to make some noise next year. A vet point guard would really solidify that. I don’t think it would hurt Killian to come off the bench for 20-25 mpg in meaningful games.

[NYPiston]

Like I said before I agree with this. If next year is a development year (tank year) Killian Hayes will be starting. If they are aiming for the playoffs Killian will be on the bench. I guess we’ll find out beginning of next year where the Pistons think they are.

I'll be shocked if Killian isn't the starter next season.
I mean, Casey started Killian in Game 1 of his rookie season with a vet in Rose who was fully capable of being a starter backing him up so what makes you think that he won't start next season?

Even if they win the Cade sweepstakes or draft Suggs, we'll likely see them start alongside Hayes not in place of him.

[NYPiston]

What's interesting to me is both how close Pistons are to being a legit playoff team and how far. First, any talk about playoffs really means they drafted the win-now player in the top five. I don't follow college, so I will leave that to others.

That said, there's a huge difference between being competitive and actually winning. Grizzlies are a great example. Transcendent player? Yep. Lots of young guys? Yep. Showing real growth? Yep. Only a five hundred team that struggles at maintaining a high level of play that wins multiple games? Yep.

I think there will be a similar growth pattern for the Pistons, but being in the East, that likely means playoffs.

Sure but if they do make the playoffs, it'll be due to the young players overachieving and not a GM who will make moves designed to push this team into playoff contention. This team is still very much in the development phase. If their young core (including the 2021 draft pick) delivers a playoff spot next season, all the more better.

[FloridaMan78]

Why do you keep saying this as if the Pistons are on the verge of making the playoffs? I think you're taking Grant's comments about them wanting to compete next season too literally. What else is he supposed to say? That's he's on board with another tank?

The fact of the matter is that next season is another development year so Hayes in all likelihood will be the starter to start the season then see where that takes him. I'm sure Weaver will add some free agents and hope that they make a push for a play in spot but I don't think his moves this offseason will be driven for the sole purpose of making the playoffs. It will be another development year most likely and Killian will be a big part of that for better or worse.

Like I said before I agree with this. If next year is a development year (tank year) Killian Hayes will be starting. If they are aiming for the playoffs Killian will be on the bench. I guess we’ll find out beginning of next year where the Pistons think they are.

Next year will be a development year. It won't necessarily be a tank year. The two are not necessarily synonymous with each other.

And honestly, if Killian is on the bench then who is going to be starting? Saben Lee? Are we really going to go sign a presumably expensive veteran PG simply to try and make a playoff run? It just doesn't make any logical sense after what we've done this past year.

They don’t need to sign an expensive free agent PG, just a vet that won’t make too many mistakes. And if they do, the contract shouldn’t go past next year.

My thinking is if they make the playoffs next year and show how competitive they are, they put the league on notice. That following free agency we should have enough cap space to sign 2 max contract players. I know we’re not a free agent destination, but we would have the winning potential part of it down and could sign some really good players that want to win.

[DetroitSho]

You left out the 4.5 turnovers in those projected numbers. Right now I think he’s making too many mistakes to be a starting point guard on a playoff team. 20-25 mpg backup for sure. He could turn it around next season which I really hope so. I think he will be a starting point guard on a good team one day, probably by year 4. I just don’t think the plan is for Killian to be the starter next year unless we are tanking again.

You can cut those TO's in half right now for being fumbled passes that get counted as TO's against Hayes.

The point remains. Any talk about how a 19 year old kid 21 games into his rookie season after coming off an injury should be looked at as a potential bust or having an inability to score is completely premature. It would be one thing if he were shooting airballs or getting stripped every time he went to the hole, but that's hardly the case. And if the Pistons truly were looking to make a playoff push next year and don't make it because Killian hasn't improved enough yet, so what? The team will do what it needs to do and move on.

I don’t think we’re that far off. I definitely don’t think Killians a bust. I do think he needs some time develop.

I just think the other guys on the team really feel like they have a chance to make some noise next year. A vet point guard would really solidify that. I don’t think it would hurt Killian to come off the bench for 20-25 mpg in meaningful games.

There's not a non rookie player on this team other than Grant that should even have thoughts about next year. None of them are guaranteed to be here. The only people that should be thinking about next year are the rookies. Do you really think they feel their fellow rookie is a roadblock? Where are you coming up with this stuff?

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[FloridaMan78]

You can cut those TO's in half right now for being fumbled passes that get counted as TO's against Hayes.

The point remains. Any talk about how a 19 year old kid 21 games into his rookie season after coming off an injury should be looked at as a potential bust or having an inability to score is completely premature. It would be one thing if he were shooting airballs or getting stripped every time he went to the hole, but that's hardly the case. And if the Pistons truly were looking to make a playoff push next year and don't make it because Killian hasn't improved enough yet, so what? The team will do what it needs to do and move on.

I don’t think we’re that far off. I definitely don’t think Killians a bust. I do think he needs some time develop.

I just think the other guys on the team really feel like they have a chance to make some noise next year. A vet point guard would really solidify that. I don’t think it would hurt Killian to come off the bench for 20-25 mpg in meaningful games.

There's not a non rookie player on this team other than Grant that should even have thoughts about next year. None of them are guaranteed to be here. The only people that should be thinking about next year are the rookies. Do you really think they feel their fellow rookie is a roadblock? Where are you coming up with this stuff?

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Road block is a harsh word. Inexperienced would be better. I think Grant would feel Hayes is inexperienced, and a vet would better handle some situations.

[tmorgan]

Road block is a harsh word. Inexperienced would be better. I think Grant would feel Hayes is inexperienced, and a vet would better handle some situations.

I don’t claim to have any insight into what Grant is thinking, but...

if this actually is his attitude, we should be looking to trade him. This is going to take time, and it can definitely be argued that Grant, in his prime, is not right for our timeline. If the return is good enough, we”d be just fine cashing him in.

[Invictus88]

Like I said before I agree with this. If next year is a development year (tank year) Killian Hayes will be starting. If they are aiming for the playoffs Killian will be on the bench. I guess we’ll find out beginning of next year where the Pistons think they are.

Next year will be a development year. It won't necessarily be a tank year. The two are not necessarily synonymous with each other.

And honestly, if Killian is on the bench then who is going to be starting? Saben Lee? Are we really going to go sign a presumably expensive veteran PG simply to try and make a playoff run? It just doesn't make any logical sense after what we've done this past year.

They don’t need to sign an expensive free agent PG, just a vet that won’t make too many mistakes. And if they do, the contract shouldn’t go past next year.

My thinking is if they make the playoffs next year and show how competitive they are, they put the league on notice. That following free agency we should have enough cap space to sign 2 max contract players. I know we’re not a free agent destination, but we would have the winning potential part of it down and could sign some really good players that want to win.

No. Just No. Playing a veteran point guard ahead of your point guard of the future while all of the rest of your developing young core progresses next season without him is just a bad idea.

Your line of thinking is why we have been the armpit of the NBA in terms of franchises for the past 15 years. We *finally* blow it up and the first thing you want to do is stick a young developing guy on the shelf in favor of a vet and then make two max signings to boot.

Does your weekly paycheck last a day or do you immediately fritter it away in the first 30 minutes? This is truly bizarro world-type stuff. The entire thread is basically pointing out how you are mistaken here and yet you keep at it.

[chrbal]

Ok I’m just going to throw my opinion in.

As far as Grant talking about major improvement or whatever, we all understand what media speak is right? When weaver got hired he said something along the lines of retooling not rebuilding. Then he entered the season with 4 players he didn’t bring in and is ending year one with 1.

This mindset that we are going to try to be a possible playoff team next season is a bit far fetched. Chances are we start next season with 3 2nd year players starting and possibly a rookie starter. Which leads to...

Hayes should start and we should not sign someone to block him or eat away playing time. Bargain bin version of Delon Wright playing a smaller role, ok. But honestly we should just try to resign Lee and Frank and have that be our pg depth chart with maybe a two way contract guy.