Mike Schmitz: Biggest disappointment of summer league is Hayes taking the ball out of Cade's hands

[Laimbeer]

So these concerns aren't just hate or overreaction by Piston fans. National analysts were asked by ESPN about their biggest disappointment and Schmitz called this out - from everything in the entire summer league.

Schmitz: Watching Cade Cunningham stand in the corner while either Killian Hayes or Saben Lee consistently started and ended possessions was maddening. Using Cunningham as only a part-time ball handler is stripping him of one of his best skills (passing) while making him look ordinary. The situation reminds me of when the Dallas Mavericks tried their best to make the Luka Doncic-Dennis Smith Jr. pairing work before ultimately giving Doncic the keys. With the ball-dominant Hayes clearly not the level of player the Pistons were hoping for when they surprisingly selected him seventh overall, Detroit would be wise to shift Hayes to a bench playmaker role, using Cunningham as the lead initiator with the starting unit.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32010903/nba-summer-league-2021-biggest-surprises-disappointments-far-las-vegas

[buzzkilloton]

Schmitz is a real smart dude. Espn has some bums but him and Lowe are as good as anyone in the business. I'm not surprised he thinks Killian should go to the bench, hell many fans have said the same.

I never thought I'd say this but starting Cojo might be the play. Will be interesting to see if Casey makes some adjustments or just lets them run together.

I've seen a few fans say they want to run Killian with Cade so they can grow together. Well I'll tell you right now Casey said today during the game "this offseason were going big game hunting". So either were drafting another guard like Hardy in the lotto, or if we draft a big that cash is going to a guard.

[bstein14]

Cade - CoJo - Bey - Grant - Stewart should be a group getting a ton of time together.

Hayes - Frank Jackson - Josh Jackson at the 1-2-3 in the 2nd unit will also work out nicely playing with Olynyk and Grant/Stewart.

Hayes and Frank Jackson will pair well together, or Hayes and CoJo would pair well together.

SL is fine to see how things work, even maybe preseason a bit but in reality our mindset as a team should be doing what we can to put Cade in a position to succeed and become a superstar in this league, and having Hayes handle the ball next to him isn't going to be the right move once we roll into the season.

[vege]

Been saying that since we won the lotto but hey, I'm just a hater.

[LaSheed]

Still like Hayes playmaking but in the limited sample I do not like the fit next to Cade. Admittedly wrong about that possibility.

Absolutely do not ever want to see Cade and Saben Lee on the floor together again.

[chrbal]

Been saying that since we won the lotto but hey, I'm just a hater.

Admitting it is the first step, congratulations

[Laimbeer]

Been saying that since we won the lotto but hey, I'm just a hater.

Admitting it is the first step, congratulations

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the whole "hater" line is lazy and old. Why would I or anyone have a reason to hate Killian? It would be more accurate to say "detractor". But then people would actually have to engage the issue instead of writing off concerns about Hayes and/or combining him with Cade as just "hate".

[Laimbeer]

Cade - CoJo - Bey - Grant - Stewart should be a group getting a ton of time together.

Hayes - Frank Jackson - Josh Jackson at the 1-2-3 in the 2nd unit will also work out nicely playing with Olynyk and Grant/Stewart.

Hayes and Frank Jackson will pair well together, or Hayes and CoJo would pair well together.

SL is fine to see how things work, even maybe preseason a bit but in reality our mindset as a team should be doing what we can to put Cade in a position to succeed and become a superstar in this league, and having Hayes handle the ball next to him isn't going to be the right move once we roll into the season.

I'm feeling this way. Cade and Hayes playing separately would help Cade's development and keep letting us get a look at Hayes. We wouldn't be giving up on him.

[chrbal]

Been saying that since we won the lotto but hey, I'm just a hater.

Admitting it is the first step, congratulations

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the whole "hater" line is lazy and old. Why would I or anyone have a reason to hate Killian? It would be more accurate to say "detractor". But then people would actually have to engage the issue instead of writing off concerns about Hayes and/or combining him with Cade as just "hate".

Last time I checked “laimbeer” wasn’t spelled v-e-g-e

Also it was intended as a joke

[Snakebites]

Even in this particular game where Cade played (or at least shot) very well, I felt this.

At least in summer league, it seems like most of the time they've been on the floor, Hayes has been the primary ball handler and not Cade. That is a problem, as Cade is clearly the more talented offensive player, and he has shooting ability to open up his playmaking unlike Hayes.

I don't hate Hayes either. He seems like a good kid and the start of his season has been mired by his own struggles and by a rather serious injury- both of which have rattled his confidence. But I look at things pragmatically- Hayes is a solid defender who is a net negative on offense and doesn't spread the floor. He has some nice playmaking ability that is hampered by the fact that teams know they can lay off of him when he's got the ball out on the perimeter- he needs a confident shot to open up the floor.

Two ball handlers work when they both are useful without the ball. At the very least Cade needs to be the PRIMARY ball handler. And even in the secondary ball handler role, what does Hayes do when Cade has the ball? Cade can clearly spot up and be a threat from the outside when Hayes has it, but the reverse is certainly not true.

Hayes is shooting 32 percent in 3 SL. That isn't a problem because SL is a significant sample size- it isn't. That's a problem because of how tightly it parallels what we saw last year.

Not hating. Just not seeing it right now.

[7r5ur]

Yeah, I don't care if they pair Cade with Hayes because I think they can be great defensively, but you can't just give Hayes the ball every time down the floor just because Killian struggles scoring. If you're going to "split" playmaking duties, actually split it. Don't just give it to Hayes 95% of the time.

[MotownMadness]

My main concern now moving forward is Cade, so whatever it takes.

[Phenomenonsense]

Yeah, I don't care if they pair Cade with Hayes because I think they can be great defensively, but you can't just give Hayes the ball every time down the floor just because Killian struggles scoring. If you're going to "split" playmaking duties, actually split it. Don't just give it to Hayes 95% of the time.

Giving it to Cade with killian in the corner is still a weakness because the boy is afraid to shoot.

[Laimbeer]

Admitting it is the first step, congratulations

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the whole "hater" line is lazy and old. Why would I or anyone have a reason to hate Killian? It would be more accurate to say "detractor". But then people would actually have to engage the issue instead of writing off concerns about Hayes and/or combining him with Cade as just "hate".

Last time I checked “laimbeer” wasn’t spelled v-e-g-e

Also it was intended as a joke

Okay we'll make an exception for vege.

[440BB]

It wasn't that long ago that 19 year old players that could contribute in short order were unusual and rare. It's more common today with the amount of support and development young potential stars get before they graduate high school.

Although many have accelerated their development as players, their emotional development is less predictable. Some never get the maturity to handle the wealth and adulation, while some just aren't quite ready for the pace and pressure of the NBA game.

The forced starting role and lost time certainly have contributed to Hayes' hesitation and lack of confidence. I hope that Hayes just needs time and less pressure to find his best game. He's a talented but typical 19 year old. He's willing to work hard, so I give him a good chance of figuring it out with more experience and the improved Pistons development staff.

Hayes might flourish on the second unit and maybe that step back from the spotlight will be exactly what he needs.

[7r5ur]

Yeah, I don't care if they pair Cade with Hayes because I think they can be great defensively, but you can't just give Hayes the ball every time down the floor just because Killian struggles scoring. If you're going to "split" playmaking duties, actually split it. Don't just give it to Hayes 95% of the time.

Giving it to Cade with killian in the corner is still a weakness because the boy is afraid to shoot.

Obviously, but that's gonna be the only way to see if he can get better at that.

Clearly Killian isn't going to get better at playing off-the-ball by only playing on-the-ball.

[ComboGuardCity]

Cade isn’t going to be able to have a 100% usage rate. We need another ball handler. Maybe it’s Killian, maybe it’s not. But I don’t think, we’re risking much by giving him a shot this season and potentially into next season. Analysts point to Luka and DSJ and applauding them for getting rid of DSJ. However, it’s clear even Luka needs a secondary ball handler to take the load off. DSJ wasn’t that guy because he wasn’t an NBA player, not because they didn’t need another competent guard. If the Mavs had Donovan Mitchell, that trade doesn’t happen.

[flow]

Cade - CoJo - Bey - Grant - Stewart should be a group getting a ton of time together.

Hayes - Frank Jackson - Josh Jackson at the 1-2-3 in the 2nd unit will also work out nicely playing with Olynyk and Grant/Stewart.

Hayes and Frank Jackson will pair well together, or Hayes and CoJo would pair well together.

SL is fine to see how things work, even maybe preseason a bit but in reality our mindset as a team should be doing what we can to put Cade in a position to succeed and become a superstar in this league, and having Hayes handle the ball next to him isn't going to be the right move once we roll into the season.

CoJo? For what? So the highest usage ball hog on the team can dribble the air out and jack up shots while Cade continues to stand in the corner?

If CoJo didn't play another minute for the Pistons, I'd be ecstatic.

.

[Snakebites]

I don't think anyone is saying Cade needs the ball in his hands 100% of the time.

But he should be the primary mover in the offense. That doesn't just mean taking the most shots, either.

And whoever the secondary playmaker is, it needs to be someone who complements HIM. Hayes right now is a lime green tanktop. Doesn't complement anything.

[bstein14]

Cade - CoJo - Bey - Grant - Stewart should be a group getting a ton of time together.

Hayes - Frank Jackson - Josh Jackson at the 1-2-3 in the 2nd unit will also work out nicely playing with Olynyk and Grant/Stewart.

Hayes and Frank Jackson will pair well together, or Hayes and CoJo would pair well together.

SL is fine to see how things work, even maybe preseason a bit but in reality our mindset as a team should be doing what we can to put Cade in a position to succeed and become a superstar in this league, and having Hayes handle the ball next to him isn't going to be the right move once we roll into the season.

Cojo? For what? So the highest usage ball hog on the team can dribble the air out and jack up shots while Cade continues to stand in the corner? If Cojo didn't play another minute for the Pistons I'd be ecstatic.

.

In 19 games with Detroit last season, he shot 36.8% from deep, and 54.3% on 2 point FGs so he was our most efficient scorer, although in limited games. He had a 3-1 assist to TO ratio and he 17.3 PER.

TS%
Frank Jackson .598
Cory Joseph .588
Bey .567
Grant .556
Diallo .549
Killian .422 (worst on team and near very bottom of NBA. If you look at players who played at least 600 minutes last season, Killian was the very bottom worst most inefficient scorer in the entire NBA.)

PER (NBA Average is 15.0)
Cory Joseph 17.3
Jerami Grant 16.9
Beef Stew 16.4
Frank Jackson 13.3
Killian 5.3 (worst on team and near very bottom of NBA)