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Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting...

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#61 » by Snakebites » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:29 pm

He's had a couple of decent games, but most games he's still the same guy we had last year.

My opinion is unnmoved. Still not applying the bust label, but we're getting there.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#62 » by Manocad » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:06 pm

bstein14 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
bstein14 wrote:
He's still the worst starting PG in the league. I know he has improved but he also still has a long ways to go. If he isn't a decent starter in the league by his 4th year I would put that into the bust category for a #7 pick. We'll see if he gets there but the jury is still out.

After having the worst TS% of all players last year that played 20+ MPG, he now has the 7th worst TS% of all players in the league that play at least 20 MPG. He still hasn't hit a single two point shot that is outside of the paint this season.

In 25.3 MPG he's average 5.8 PPG. If you look at players that play more than 25 MPG he scores the least points per game in the entire league for players that play at least 25 MPG. If you look at players who play more than 25 MPG he has the worst FG% (31.8%) of any players in the entire league that play more than 25 MPG.

If we were gunning for the playoffs right now he couldn't be getting this many minutes per game with the production he is giving us. He is still a player being gifted minutes based on where he was drafted.

All of that said, its certainly encouraging to see the improvements we've seen from him and there is more hope from me that he ends up getting there as a player and plays well enough to be a part of the future but right now he still sucks. He probably wouldn't be in the rotation of about 25 teams in the league he is only playing for teams like us, OKC, Orlando, Houston, etc.

This isn't his 4th year. He also ranks 15th in steals and 54th in assists. It isn't "gifting" minutes when the point is to develop the player. It would be stupid to draft a guy at 7 then bury him on the bench after 30 games in a clearly rebuilding season where the playoffs are a remote vision just because he doesn't match up with veteran starters in the league. There is no harm done in continuing to give Hayes starting minutes this season. It's the perfect opportunity to give him plenty of time to show what he can do.


Him playing right now for us is for sure the correct move. Other teams trying to make the playoffs likely wouldn't have him in the rotation. Stanley Johnson's first season (73 games) with Detroit he put up 8.1 PPG on better %s and played good defense and he is out of the league now.... so I'm simply saying Hayes is far from a non bust at this point. He still has a long ways to go to carve a spot in this league for himself and most of that is going to be about improving his scoring.

And he's far from being a bust too.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#63 » by Spider156 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:07 pm

I think people need to quit thinking of the notion that Killian is going to score the ball. He’s not going to score the ball. He’s a lot like jrue holiday type of player, big strong guard that can guard wings and who will generate the offense from time to time and hit open spot up jumpshot. Killian will never be better than a 4th option and that’s okay because he does everything else and he’s not a bad shooter by any means.

Options offensively should be:
1. Cade 2. Blank 3. Grant 4. Bey 5. Killian

He’s not the problem, Stewart isn’t big enough. We need Ayton.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#64 » by FloridaMan78 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:36 pm

Killian has made himself into a solid player. Good defender hitting the spot up three with the potential to improve. A good 5th option.

My thing is what happens next year in the draft. Let’s say we get the 7th pick. Banchero, Chet, Hardy all gone and a guy like Jaden Ivey is there. I don’t think having Killian should influence that pick and we should pick BPA.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#65 » by DetroitSho » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:14 pm

FloridaMan78 wrote:Killian has made himself into a solid player. Good defender hitting the spot up three with the potential to improve. A good 5th option.

My thing is what happens next year in the draft. Let’s say we get the 7th pick. Banchero, Chet, Hardy all gone and a guy like Jaden Ivey is there. I don’t think having Killian should influence that pick and we should pick BPA.
Not one bit and not even the Killian supporters would say that.

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#66 » by bstein14 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:29 pm

Given the fact we have max or near max cap space, along with a likely top 5 pick I'd say at least one but very possibly two of our starters will be different on opening day next year. Obviously the most likely players to not be starting would be Hayes and Stewart.

Even if Hayes continues to improve slightly throughout the season, and then takes another step forward during the offseason its still fairly likely he's a bench player next year unless we get unlucky in the 2022 draft or we decide to use our cap space on something other than a starting caliber player.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#67 » by Sort » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:04 pm

The Ben Simmons analogy doesn't quite work. I think everyone agrees Killian's a solid defender - still plenty to learn, but Ben Simmons knows how to create in transition and the open court (or at least the old version - who knows what this current version will even be like). Pistons just can't have two starters that don't put any pressure on defenses. If I'm playin the Pistons, I'm cool with Killian going two for four from three and one for two from the field if the rest of the time you can play four on five.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#68 » by Pistonrings » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:07 pm

Killian, 19 minutes last night WHILE INJURED, 4 pts, 4 rbs, 4 assists, 3 steals, 1 block. Laughable to read some of the comments in this thread. He and Cade = best backcourt in the league in 2 years, and probably by far.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#69 » by Pistonrings » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:10 pm

Sort wrote:The Ben Simmons analogy doesn't quite work. I think everyone agrees Killian's a solid defender - still plenty to learn, but Ben Simmons knows how to create in transition and the open court (or at least the old version - who knows what this current version will even be like). Pistons just can't have two starters that don't put any pressure on defenses. If I'm playin the Pistons, I'm cool with Killian going two for four from three and one for two from the field if the rest of the time you can play four on five.

But you wouldn't be happy (just like Toronto wasn't) with him being 3 rebounds shy of a triple double playing great defense and getting multiple steals.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#70 » by whitehops » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:46 pm

i can stomach hayes a lot more now that cade has pretty much completely taken the ball out of killian's hands.

it doesn't mean hayes has improved, he just has less opportunities to display his weaknesses and i can live with that. he also seems to be playing with more confidence now that he doesn't have to feel self conscious about being useless when creating offense.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#71 » by Uncle Mxy » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:03 am

Spider156 wrote:I think people need to quit thinking of the notion that Killian is going to score the ball. He’s not going to score the ball. He’s a lot like jrue holiday type of player, big strong guard that can guard wings and who will generate the offense from time to time and hit open spot up jumpshot. Killian will never be better than a 4th option and that’s okay because he does everything else and he’s not a bad shooter by any means.

Options offensively should be:
1. Cade 2. Blank 3. Grant 4. Bey 5. Killian

He’s not the problem, Stewart isn’t big enough. We need Ayton.

Blanks was a bust when we drafted him. :)
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#72 » by 440BB » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:20 am

Watching Hayes play dogged defense gives me hope, as defense requires hard work. Whether he becomes a better shooter, ballhandler and decision maker starts with consistent work, something he seems willing to do.

Perhaps when he said in the preseason that he had been working on his defense, that's exactly what he did, doubling down on his strengths. Until his shot comes around, it's the one NBA skill he can use consistently to contribute. Becoming an elite defender buys him a bit more time to develop the other skills. Whether his work pays off will determine whether he's a part of the rotation in '23, when games will really matter again.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#73 » by El Chivo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:18 am

I'm not really confident in Hayes becoming more than a defensive combo guard, but...

1) Edwards, OK
2) Wiseman, bust alert
3) LaMelo, All star
4) Williams, a role player drafted at 4 and injury prone
5) Okoro, bust alert
6) Okongwu, bust alert
7) Hayes
8) Toppin, maybe a good rotation forward
9) Avdija, I really like him, but we're not talking about a potential star
10) Smith, never played
11) Vassell, nice 3D, but nothing special
12) Haliburton, STEAL
13) Lewis, meh
14) Nesmith, meh
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#74 » by zeebneeb » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:30 pm

With the rule changes being what they are, Killians value has gone up as he is a rabid dog on defense. You can't teach effort.

The changes to the rules are having a profound impact on the game, and values around the league.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#75 » by Liqourish » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:35 pm

El Chivo wrote:I'm not really confident in Hayes becoming more than a defensive combo guard, but...

1) Edwards, OK
2) Wiseman, bust alert
3) LaMelo, All star
4) Williams, a role player drafted at 4 and injury prone
5) Okoro, bust alert
6) Okongwu, bust alert
7) Hayes
8) Toppin, maybe a good rotation forward
9) Avdija, I really like him, but we're not talking about a potential star
10) Smith, never played
11) Vassell, nice 3D, but nothing special
12) Haliburton, STEAL
13) Lewis, meh
14) Nesmith, meh


I was all for moving up for Melo and people gave me crap about it on this board. I was ok with Hayes as a consolation prize, so I'm hoping he can turn it around. But I just don't think he fits the make up of this team now.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#76 » by Manocad » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:55 pm

Liqourish wrote:
El Chivo wrote:I'm not really confident in Hayes becoming more than a defensive combo guard, but...

1) Edwards, OK
2) Wiseman, bust alert
3) LaMelo, All star
4) Williams, a role player drafted at 4 and injury prone
5) Okoro, bust alert
6) Okongwu, bust alert
7) Hayes
8) Toppin, maybe a good rotation forward
9) Avdija, I really like him, but we're not talking about a potential star
10) Smith, never played
11) Vassell, nice 3D, but nothing special
12) Haliburton, STEAL
13) Lewis, meh
14) Nesmith, meh


I was all for moving up for Melo and people gave me crap about it on this board. I was ok with Hayes as a consolation prize, so I'm hoping he can turn it around. But I just don't think he fits the make up of this team now.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. If he was hitting his shots at an acceptable rate I don't think anyone would be saying he's not a good fit. Personally I think the makeup of the team relative to the starting core is fine if they can just score at an acceptable rate across the board.

By the way, something I've always been meaning to ask...is your user name intentionally spelled differently than "liquor"?
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#77 » by Liqourish » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:54 am

Manocad wrote:
Liqourish wrote:
El Chivo wrote:I'm not really confident in Hayes becoming more than a defensive combo guard, but...

1) Edwards, OK
2) Wiseman, bust alert
3) LaMelo, All star
4) Williams, a role player drafted at 4 and injury prone
5) Okoro, bust alert
6) Okongwu, bust alert
7) Hayes
8) Toppin, maybe a good rotation forward
9) Avdija, I really like him, but we're not talking about a potential star
10) Smith, never played
11) Vassell, nice 3D, but nothing special
12) Haliburton, STEAL
13) Lewis, meh
14) Nesmith, meh


I was all for moving up for Melo and people gave me crap about it on this board. I was ok with Hayes as a consolation prize, so I'm hoping he can turn it around. But I just don't think he fits the make up of this team now.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. If he was hitting his shots at an acceptable rate I don't think anyone would be saying he's not a good fit. Personally I think the makeup of the team relative to the starting core is fine if they can just score at an acceptable rate across the board.

By the way, something I've always been meaning to ask...is your user name intentionally spelled differently than "liquor"?


It is. It was a running joke with friends, like 20 years ago, and the name just stuck. I'd get into the meaning behind it, but it might be against forum rules. :lol:
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#78 » by Manocad » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:47 pm

Liqourish wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Liqourish wrote:
I was all for moving up for Melo and people gave me crap about it on this board. I was ok with Hayes as a consolation prize, so I'm hoping he can turn it around. But I just don't think he fits the make up of this team now.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. If he was hitting his shots at an acceptable rate I don't think anyone would be saying he's not a good fit. Personally I think the makeup of the team relative to the starting core is fine if they can just score at an acceptable rate across the board.

By the way, something I've always been meaning to ask...is your user name intentionally spelled differently than "liquor"?


It is. It was a running joke with friends, like 20 years ago, and the name just stuck. I'd get into the meaning behind it, but it might be against forum rules. :lol:

Got it. No deep story behind mine; when I started college, before switching to mechanical engineering, I was going for a drafting and design degree. Thus I was doing CAD work (Computer Aided Drafting) on a computer hooked to the system and had to have a username. CADMan was taken so...there you have it.
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