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Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting...

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#21 » by Manocad » Mon Nov 8, 2021 11:57 pm

Drwho17 wrote:
Snakebites wrote:
Billl wrote:
THe team hitting 38% would be fine. The best shooter being at 38% would suck.

The league average (which will likely still fluctuate, it's early) is 34%, compared to 36.7% last season.

Our average thus far is 27.7%. That's inexcusably bad...

They switched ball vendors, supposedly that is hurting the shooting percentages thus far.

I actually have one of the “old” official balls that they’ve now switched back to. They stamped them “Classic Edition” likely to sell out remaining stock after they switched to the new ball. I figured it would make sense to pick one up.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#22 » by Manocad » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:25 pm

By the way, where's the big mouth who was complaining that "it's clear that Killian didn't work on his shooting in the off season"? Especially now that he's up to 43.3% on 3's.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#23 » by bstein14 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:55 pm

Manocad wrote:By the way, where's the big mouth who was complaining that "it's clear that Killian didn't work on his shooting in the off season"? Especially now that he's up to 43.3% on 3's.


That's a great encouraging number for sure. If he can keep up shooting threes even in the high 30's that is going to be huge for his game and the team.

That said, he still has the 2nd worst TS% on the team ahead of only Cade, who also has been really inefficient scoring the ball.

Cade 41.8%
Hayes 43.7%

If you look at the entire NBA for players who play at least 20 MPG Cade is currently 6th worst in the NBA and Killian is currently 11th worst in the NBA, and that is an improvement from being worst in the NBA last year for Killian. So even though he's hitting three's at a nice percentage he still has a long ways to go to actually be a positive, or average NBA scorer.

Of course if he simply took 1 less 2 point FG attempt per game and 1 more 3 point FG attempt per game and kept his %s for each he would see a huge jump in overall efficiency. He currently shoots 2.7 three's per game making 1.2 per game which is a great % for sure. But on 2 point shots he only makes 1.1 per game on average of 4.4 shots per game so he's making less than 25% of those shots. He's also a very good FT shooter, but doesn't get much help there upping his TS% to improve his overall efficiency because he rarely gets to the line. Honestly, Casey should probably make Hayes (or Cade) the technical foul FT shooter on the team instead of Grant who is also a solid 84% this season but not as high as what Hayes or Cade are shooting them at, although a small sample size still.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#24 » by Manocad » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:47 pm

bstein14 wrote:
Manocad wrote:By the way, where's the big mouth who was complaining that "it's clear that Killian didn't work on his shooting in the off season"? Especially now that he's up to 43.3% on 3's.


That's a great encouraging number for sure. If he can keep up shooting threes even in the high 30's that is going to be huge for his game and the team.

That said, he still has the 2nd worst TS% on the team ahead of only Cade, who also has been really inefficient scoring the ball.

Cade 41.8%
Hayes 43.7%

If you look at the entire NBA for players who play at least 20 MPG Cade is currently 6th worst in the NBA and Killian is currently 11th worst in the NBA, and that is an improvement from being worst in the NBA last year for Killian. So even though he's hitting three's at a nice percentage he still has a long ways to go to actually be a positive, or average NBA scorer.

Of course if he simply took 1 less 2 point FG attempt per game and 1 more 3 point FG attempt per game and kept his %s for each he would see a huge jump in overall efficiency. He currently shoots 2.7 three's per game making 1.2 per game which is a great % for sure. But on 2 point shots he only makes 1.1 per game on average of 4.4 shots per game so he's making less than 25% of those shots. He's also a very good FT shooter, but doesn't get much help there upping his TS% to improve his overall efficiency because he rarely gets to the line. Honestly, Casey should probably make Hayes (or Cade) the technical foul FT shooter on the team instead of Grant who is also a solid 84% this season but not as high as what Hayes or Cade are shooting them at, although a small sample size still.

My point remains. When you state AS A FACT that "it's clear Hayes didn't work on shooting in the offseason" and he shows improvement shooting, I'm gonna let you know it.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#25 » by 440BB » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:51 pm

I don't expect Hayes to be a great three point shooter, just decent. What's more important to me is that he's showing more confidence in his game, which translates to improvements across the board, including making his teammates more successful. Decent stats, low turnovers and excellent defense is fine with me.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#26 » by Drwho17 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:43 pm

I have more hope for him now, that he is having some success. He does things right, they just don't work for him, looks like some are starting to work. He really was good last game defensively, quite a pest, would like to see him develop that consistently and become efficient offensively. Would like to see him bring the ball upcourt more, instead of having Cade waste his time/energy doing that.

I also think, Casey is good at getting young players to reach their potential, so I have hope that Hayes won't be a bust.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#27 » by Laimbeer » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:13 pm

Also averaging 2.1 steals per 36.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#28 » by Sort » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:44 pm

I don't think it's any mistake he's looked better since Cade showed up. Pressure valve release. I have no idea at this point how Killian will develop - he certainly has looked awful overall despite the recent uptick - but I do think it's safe to say he plays better as a secondary player. I don't think that part will change.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#29 » by MotownMadness » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:23 pm

He's starting to look more comfortable out there. He needed to loosen up and not play so robotic and predictable.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#30 » by Moses ShamMoses » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:52 pm

I'd like to see Killian run the show for the second unit to see how he does. Part of me is tired of Cojo and part of me thinks Killian could benefit from playing against lesser players to build his confidence up even more.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#31 » by Laimbeer » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:12 pm

Maybe we should temper our expectations.

NBA Comparison: Kirk Hinrich/Spencer Dinwiddie (nbadraft.net)

#7 picks

Year Player School/Country – Team

2019 Coby White, North Carolina – Chicago Bulls
2018 Wendell Carter Jr., Duke – Chicago Bulls
2017 Lauri Markkanen, Arizona – Minnesota Timberwolves
2016 Jamal Murray, Kentucky – Denver Nuggets
2015 Emmanuel Mudiay, Guangdong Tigers – Denver Nuggets
2014 Julius Randle, Kentucky – Los Angeles Lakers
2013 Ben McLemore, Kansas – Sacramento Kings
2012 Harrison Barnes, North Carolina – Golden State Warriors
2011 Bismack Biyombo, Congo – Sacramento Kings
2010 Greg Monroe, Georgetown – Detroit Pistons
2009 Stephen Curry, Davidson – Golden State Warriors
2008 Eric Gordon, Indiana – L.A. Clippers
2007 Corey Brewer, Florida – Minnesota Timberwolves
2006 Randy Foye, Villanova – Boston Celtics
2005 Charlie Villanueva, Connecticut – Toronto Raptors
2004 Luol Deng, Duke – Phoenix Suns
2003 Kirk Hinrich, Kansas – Chicago Bulls
2002 Nene Hilario, Brazil – New York
2001 Eddie Griffin, Seton Hall – New Jersey
2000 Chris Mihm, Texas – Chicago Bulls
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#32 » by Pistonrings » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:38 pm

As Killian improves, and he will, we will have a lot of fun going back and calling out those who were saying he was looking like a bust. Manocad is already calling them out and I am having a blast reading his posts.

There are a few of us here who could clearly see this kid had a wonderful package of physical attributes and had no doubt he would improve as time went on. He still hasn't played even 40 games yet out from a wimpy French league. It was shocking to me to see so many moronic postings about how he was a bust and how he would be out of the league in 2 years.

I mentioned before, it was so shocking to see such ridiculous rantings that I started to think this is some kind of generational thing where kids these days expect instant gratification, like they expected Killian (And now Cade) to perform as if he is in a video NBA game.

So as he gets better, there will surely be some threads specifically calling out a bunch of these posters and making sure they know that they don't know squat about the NBA
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#33 » by treefi » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:36 am

Does anyone really think Killian is going to shoot over 35% from 3 this entire year? I certainly don't expect it and would find it very surprising... Just curious.

By the way some of you are talking, you'd think Hayes was having an excellent start to his second NBA season. While he did have the second best game of his career against Toronto and has looked better at shooting 3s through his first 34 attempts compared to last year, let's not overreact here...

Friendly reminder that Killian is averaging 6.0ppg, 3.4rpg, 3.6apg, 1.5spg on 30.4% shooting, 38.2% from 3 through his first 12 games and we're not winning. :o

As stunningly cold as Cade's jumper was to start his rookie year after missing several games and all of preseason, he's now averaging 13.8ppg, 5.5rpg, 3.6apg, 1.0spg on 38.2% shooting, 26.7% from 3 through his first 8 games.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree the best part about Killian is that he clearly has potential to be one of the top defensive guards in the league.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#34 » by buzzkilloton » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:56 am

treefi wrote:Does anyone really think Killian is going to shoot over 35% from 3 this entire year? I certainly don't expect it and would find it very surprising... Just curious.

By the way some of you are talking, you'd think Hayes was having an excellent start to his second NBA season. While he did have the second best game of his career against Toronto and has looked better at shooting 3s through his first 34 attempts compared to last year, let's not overreact here...

Friendly reminder that Killian is averaging 6.0ppg, 3.4rpg, 3.6apg, 1.5spg on 30.4% shooting, 38.2% from 3 through his first 12 games and we're not winning. :o

As stunningly cold as Cade's jumper was to start his rookie year after missing several games and all of preseason, he's now averaging 13.8ppg, 5.5rpg, 3.6apg, 1.0spg on 38.2% shooting, 26.7% from 3 through his first 8 games.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree the best part about Killian is that he clearly has potential to be one of the top defensive guards in the league.



Careful man theirs posters saying their going to have "call out threads about posters not knowing squat about the NBA". People are taking victory laps on a starting NBA PG putting up 6 3.4 and 3.6 on 30% shooting. Leading the worst 3pt shooting team in the league in 3pt % on low volume will not last.

Lots put Killian Hayes into context compared to other 2nd year guards from the same class. Mind 3 of these guys were drafted after him:

Lamelo Ball-19.5 7.1apg 7.5rbg 21.0PER 54%TS
Tyrese H -13.0 5.2apg 3.9rbg 16.8PER 54% TS
Cole A -19.5 5.2apg 6.9rbg 17.8PER 57%TS
Tyrese M -17.6 4.6apg 3.6rbg 18PER 60% TS
Killian- -6.8 3.7apg 3.4rbg 8.5PER 41.2% TS
Fade for Cade
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#35 » by bstein14 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:10 am

I'd be super happy with Hayes if he can up his season averages to the following, while also playing good defense.

24 MPG, 8 PPG, 4 RPG, 5 APG, 2 TO per game while shooting 40% from the floor overall and 36% from downtown. For me that would be a great 2nd season for him. I don't think he needs to get up a ton of shots or score double digits. A 2.5:1 assist to TO ratio as well as being ok from 2 point range would be great. He has a lot of work to do to get there for sure but I think its possible if we continue to see him get better and better.

Of course I don't have expectations of him being one of the better PGs from his draft, I am just hoping he can become a decent backup PG in the league before is rookie contract is up. Then I think you can resign him as a 7th or 8th man in the rotation. For me I'm just wanting him to work himself to being a rotation player on a playoff team that's a slightly above average backup PG.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#36 » by FloridaMan78 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:16 am

treefi wrote:Does anyone really think Killian is going to shoot over 35% from 3 this entire year? I certainly don't expect it and would find it very surprising... Just curious.

By the way some of you are talking, you'd think Hayes was having an excellent start to his second NBA season. While he did have the second best game of his career against Toronto and has looked better at shooting 3s through his first 34 attempts compared to last year, let's not overreact here...

Friendly reminder that Killian is averaging 6.0ppg, 3.4rpg, 3.6apg, 1.5spg on 30.4% shooting, 38.2% from 3 through his first 12 games and we're not winning. :o

As stunningly cold as Cade's jumper was to start his rookie year after missing several games and all of preseason, he's now averaging 13.8ppg, 5.5rpg, 3.6apg, 1.0spg on 38.2% shooting, 26.7% from 3 through his first 8 games.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree the best part about Killian is that he clearly has potential to be one of the top defensive guards in the league.


I think he could shoot over 35% from three. It’s all about his shot selection. If he just shoots open spot up threes and uncontested layups, he’ll be fine. Play defense and swing the ball around and hit the open man. Attack in transition. Let Cade attack the set defense. He got man handled tonight when he tried to do too much. Work on the rest of the game in practice and the off-season.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#37 » by Invictus88 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:49 pm

Am I the only one who isn't super concerned about his low 2pt shooting percentage long term?

He's still trying out different approaches to driving, spot ups, floaters, learning to take contact, etc. There's going to be growing pains during that process. There's also going to be a lot of inconsistency from game to game because he's basically a rookie in terms of experience.

Each game passing with him still shooting respectably from behind the arc shows what he's actually capable of. That's something that was in doubt by some and there's no way to deny it going forward if he keeps it up.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#38 » by Manocad » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:12 pm

Invictus88 wrote:Am I the only one who isn't super concerned about his low 2pt shooting percentage long term?

He's still trying out different approaches to driving, spot ups, floaters, learning to take contact, etc. There's going to be growing pains during that process. There's also going to be a lot of inconsistency from game to game because he's basically a rookie in terms of experience.

Each game passing with him still shooting respectably from behind the arc shows what he's actually capable of. That's something that was in doubt by some and there's no way to deny it going forward if he keeps it up.

I'm not at all concerned.
I'd be concerned if he was constantly taking bad shots (bad choices) or his shooting form was conducive to every shot struggling to go in (poor form/lack of ability). But that's not the case. Same with Cade. Sure he (and Cade) take some ill-advised toss up shots in the lane against three defenders (moreso Cade than Killian) that don't have a prayer but that's pretty rare. Again, given that we're 13 games into what for all intents and purposes is still really his rookie year Part 2, patience is still the key.

That's why I'm critical of any heavy criticism at this point. He HAS shown he has the capability thus it's crazy to me to say at this point that he CAN'T do the things he needs to do and/or would be expected to do. CAN he hit a 3? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he make some really good passes that lead to good scoring opportunities? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he hit a little teardrop floater in the lane? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he play some stifling defense? Yep, he's clearly shown that. The fact that he's inconsistent at anything is evidence only of him being 40 games into his career, not that he CAN'T do it. And to be quite honest, I think the heavy criticism of him as not having the ability to be the player he needs to be is a mask for people who simply WANT him to be better sooner. They just don't want to admit that they're impatient.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#39 » by Invictus88 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:56 pm

Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:Am I the only one who isn't super concerned about his low 2pt shooting percentage long term?

He's still trying out different approaches to driving, spot ups, floaters, learning to take contact, etc. There's going to be growing pains during that process. There's also going to be a lot of inconsistency from game to game because he's basically a rookie in terms of experience.

Each game passing with him still shooting respectably from behind the arc shows what he's actually capable of. That's something that was in doubt by some and there's no way to deny it going forward if he keeps it up.

I'm not at all concerned.
I'd be concerned if he was constantly taking bad shots (bad choices) or his shooting form was conducive to every shot struggling to go in (poor form/lack of ability). But that's not the case. Same with Cade. Sure he (and Cade) take some ill-advised toss up shots in the lane against three defenders (moreso Cade than Killian) that don't have a prayer but that's pretty rare. Again, given that we're 13 games into what for all intents and purposes is still really his rookie year Part 2, patience is still the key.

That's why I'm critical of any heavy criticism at this point. He HAS shown he has the capability thus it's crazy to me to say at this point that he CAN'T do the things he needs to do and/or would be expected to do. CAN he hit a 3? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he make some really good passes that lead to good scoring opportunities? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he hit a little teardrop floater in the lane? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he play some stifling defense? Yep, he's clearly shown that. The fact that he's inconsistent at anything is evidence only of him being 40 games into his career, not that he CAN'T do it. And to be quite honest, I think the heavy criticism of him as not having the ability to be the player he needs to be is a mask for people who simply WANT him to be better sooner. They just don't want to admit that they're impatient and wrong.


Agreed. Just added a small part which now explains why some of those same people likely won't be happy unless he fails at this point.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#40 » by Manocad » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:21 pm

Invictus88 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Invictus88 wrote:Am I the only one who isn't super concerned about his low 2pt shooting percentage long term?

He's still trying out different approaches to driving, spot ups, floaters, learning to take contact, etc. There's going to be growing pains during that process. There's also going to be a lot of inconsistency from game to game because he's basically a rookie in terms of experience.

Each game passing with him still shooting respectably from behind the arc shows what he's actually capable of. That's something that was in doubt by some and there's no way to deny it going forward if he keeps it up.

I'm not at all concerned.
I'd be concerned if he was constantly taking bad shots (bad choices) or his shooting form was conducive to every shot struggling to go in (poor form/lack of ability). But that's not the case. Same with Cade. Sure he (and Cade) take some ill-advised toss up shots in the lane against three defenders (moreso Cade than Killian) that don't have a prayer but that's pretty rare. Again, given that we're 13 games into what for all intents and purposes is still really his rookie year Part 2, patience is still the key.

That's why I'm critical of any heavy criticism at this point. He HAS shown he has the capability thus it's crazy to me to say at this point that he CAN'T do the things he needs to do and/or would be expected to do. CAN he hit a 3? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he make some really good passes that lead to good scoring opportunities? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he hit a little teardrop floater in the lane? Yep, he's clearly shown that. CAN he play some stifling defense? Yep, he's clearly shown that. The fact that he's inconsistent at anything is evidence only of him being 40 games into his career, not that he CAN'T do it. And to be quite honest, I think the heavy criticism of him as not having the ability to be the player he needs to be is a mask for people who simply WANT him to be better sooner. They just don't want to admit that they're impatient and wrong.


Agreed. Just added a small part which now explains why some of those same people likely won't be happy unless he fails at this point.

Yep. Him failing means they don't have to admit they were just impatient and as you stated, wrong.
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