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Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting...

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#41 » by Laimbeer » Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:38 pm

Invictus88 wrote:Am I the only one who isn't super concerned about his low 2pt shooting percentage long term?

He's still trying out different approaches to driving, spot ups, floaters, learning to take contact, etc. There's going to be growing pains during that process. There's also going to be a lot of inconsistency from game to game because he's basically a rookie in terms of experience.

Each game passing with him still shooting respectably from behind the arc shows what he's actually capable of. That's something that was in doubt by some and there's no way to deny it going forward if he keeps it up.


There's low and then there's 24.5%.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#42 » by Billl » Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:58 pm

I'm less concerned with him shooting poorly from 2 than how those shots are coming. He's not getting separation on most of them and forcing up tough looks. The improved 3 point shot should open things up for him, but he still needs to get comfortable with some quick moves. eg 2 hard dribbles and pull up for a shorter J. He's not the type of guy who is just going to blow by people , so he's going to have to work on that change of pace to get a little space for himself. He's creating space for others when he puts it down, but he needs to be a threat himself.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#43 » by Manocad » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:05 pm

Billl wrote:I'm less concerned with him shooting poorly from 2 than how those shots are coming. He's not getting separation on most of them and forcing up tough looks. The improved 3 point shot should open things up for him, but he still needs to get comfortable with some quick moves. eg 2 hard dribbles and pull up for a shorter J. He's not the type of guy who is just going to blow by people , so he's going to have to work on that change of pace to get a little space for himself. He's creating space for others when he puts it down, but he needs to be a threat himself.

Bingo. Stuff that can be taught/learned over time.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#44 » by edmunder_prc » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:16 pm

My problem is the eye test: He looks so uncomfortable driving, dribbling towards the basket and putting up a shot. His footwork is bad and he is off balance. Then when he shoots he looks awkward, he doesnt square up, etc.

If he was making them its one thing, but other than 3-pointers his shots brick hard, they arent close.

There was a moment in the Kings game where he stole a pass, then was in the near corner dribbling behind his back. He looked really good, but that was 15 seconds out of the game. Needs another 25 minutes a game of that.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#45 » by DetroitSho » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:11 am

edmunder_prc wrote:My problem is the eye test: He looks so uncomfortable driving, dribbling towards the basket and putting up a shot. His footwork is bad and he is off balance. Then when he shoots he looks awkward, he doesnt square up, etc.

If he was making them its one thing, but other than 3-pointers his shots brick hard, they arent close.

There was a moment in the Kings game where he stole a pass, then was in the near corner dribbling behind his back. He looked really good, but that was 15 seconds out of the game. Needs another 25 minutes a game of that.
All lefties look awkward shooting to me. It seems like they're NEVER squared up.

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#46 » by ComboGuardCity » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:32 am

DetroitSho wrote:
edmunder_prc wrote:My problem is the eye test: He looks so uncomfortable driving, dribbling towards the basket and putting up a shot. His footwork is bad and he is off balance. Then when he shoots he looks awkward, he doesnt square up, etc.

If he was making them its one thing, but other than 3-pointers his shots brick hard, they arent close.

There was a moment in the Kings game where he stole a pass, then was in the near corner dribbling behind his back. He looked really good, but that was 15 seconds out of the game. Needs another 25 minutes a game of that.
All lefties look awkward shooting to me. It seems like they're NEVER squared up.

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Agreed…except Michael Redd
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#47 » by Snakebites » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:08 pm

Nobody looked weirder shooting than Tayshaun.

I remember taking years to get used to that mechanic.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#48 » by Manocad » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:36 pm

Snakebites wrote:Nobody looked weirder shooting than Tayshaun.

I remember taking years to get used to that mechanic.

Yeah, he had that funky release where his shooting hand was still on the side of the ball when he cocked it back, then in his forward shooting motion he turned his wrist to put his hand behind the ball.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#49 » by DetroitSho » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:09 pm

ComboGuardCity wrote:
DetroitSho wrote:
edmunder_prc wrote:My problem is the eye test: He looks so uncomfortable driving, dribbling towards the basket and putting up a shot. His footwork is bad and he is off balance. Then when he shoots he looks awkward, he doesnt square up, etc.

If he was making them its one thing, but other than 3-pointers his shots brick hard, they arent close.

There was a moment in the Kings game where he stole a pass, then was in the near corner dribbling behind his back. He looked really good, but that was 15 seconds out of the game. Needs another 25 minutes a game of that.
All lefties look awkward shooting to me. It seems like they're NEVER squared up.

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Agreed…except Michael Redd
Probably the reason he used a damn slingshot to shoot it. Lol

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#50 » by Snakebites » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:11 pm

Manocad wrote:
Snakebites wrote:Nobody looked weirder shooting than Tayshaun.

I remember taking years to get used to that mechanic.

Yeah, he had that funky release where his shooting hand was still on the side of the ball when he cocked it back, then in his forward shooting motion he turned his wrist to put his hand behind the ball.

You have to wonder if in this day and age a shooting coach might have made him change it- or attempted to and maybe messed up his shot.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#51 » by DetroitSho » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:11 pm

All said, lefties are a bad watch for me shooting a jumper. But put em in a batter's box and I'm all in.

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#52 » by DetroitSho » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:14 pm

Snakebites wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Snakebites wrote:Nobody looked weirder shooting than Tayshaun.

I remember taking years to get used to that mechanic.

Yeah, he had that funky release where his shooting hand was still on the side of the ball when he cocked it back, then in his forward shooting motion he turned his wrist to put his hand behind the ball.

You have to wonder if in this day and age a shooting coach might have made him change it- or attempted to and maybe messed up his shot.
I'd say no because he was hitting a good enough percentage and it wasn't being released low to where being blocked was a big concern.

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#53 » by Snakebites » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:31 pm

DetroitSho wrote:
Snakebites wrote:
Manocad wrote:Yeah, he had that funky release where his shooting hand was still on the side of the ball when he cocked it back, then in his forward shooting motion he turned his wrist to put his hand behind the ball.

You have to wonder if in this day and age a shooting coach might have made him change it- or attempted to and maybe messed up his shot.
I'd say no because he was hitting a good enough percentage and it wasn't being released low to where being blocked was a big concern.

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A fair point: he was a decent shooter essentially from the start.

The strange mechanic may have contributed to him falling down draft boards though.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#54 » by Manocad » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:32 pm

DetroitSho wrote:All said, lefties are a bad watch for me shooting a jumper. But put em in a batter's box and I'm all in.

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Yep. Lefties have the purest baseball swing. I hit from both sides when I played and hit for better average batting left (more consistent good contact) but more power batting right. Which was odd because I definitely pulled the ball more hitting left and sprayed it more hitting right.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#55 » by Pharaoh » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:44 am

So after 40 games who still thinks Hayes is a bust?

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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#56 » by bstein14 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:45 pm

Pharaoh wrote:So after 40 games who still thinks Hayes is a bust?

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He's still the worst starting PG in the league. I know he has improved but he also still has a long ways to go. If he isn't a decent starter in the league by his 4th year I would put that into the bust category for a #7 pick. We'll see if he gets there but the jury is still out.

After having the worst TS% of all players last year that played 20+ MPG, he now has the 7th worst TS% of all players in the league that play at least 20 MPG. He still hasn't hit a single two point shot that is outside of the paint this season.

In 25.3 MPG he's average 5.8 PPG. If you look at players that play more than 25 MPG he scores the least points per game in the entire league for players that play at least 25 MPG. If you look at players who play more than 25 MPG he has the worst FG% (31.8%) of any players in the entire league that play more than 25 MPG.

If we were gunning for the playoffs right now he couldn't be getting this many minutes per game with the production he is giving us. He is still a player being gifted minutes based on where he was drafted.

All of that said, its certainly encouraging to see the improvements we've seen from him and there is more hope from me that he ends up getting there as a player and plays well enough to be a part of the future but right now he still sucks. He probably wouldn't be in the rotation of about 25 teams in the league he is only playing for teams like us, OKC, Orlando, Houston, etc.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#57 » by Manocad » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 pm

bstein14 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:So after 40 games who still thinks Hayes is a bust?

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He's still the worst starting PG in the league. I know he has improved but he also still has a long ways to go. If he isn't a decent starter in the league by his 4th year I would put that into the bust category for a #7 pick. We'll see if he gets there but the jury is still out.

After having the worst TS% of all players last year that played 20+ MPG, he now has the 7th worst TS% of all players in the league that play at least 20 MPG. He still hasn't hit a single two point shot that is outside of the paint this season.

In 25.3 MPG he's average 5.8 PPG. If you look at players that play more than 25 MPG he scores the least points per game in the entire league for players that play at least 25 MPG. If you look at players who play more than 25 MPG he has the worst FG% (31.8%) of any players in the entire league that play more than 25 MPG.

If we were gunning for the playoffs right now he couldn't be getting this many minutes per game with the production he is giving us. He is still a player being gifted minutes based on where he was drafted.

All of that said, its certainly encouraging to see the improvements we've seen from him and there is more hope from me that he ends up getting there as a player and plays well enough to be a part of the future but right now he still sucks. He probably wouldn't be in the rotation of about 25 teams in the league he is only playing for teams like us, OKC, Orlando, Houston, etc.

This isn't his 4th year. He also ranks 15th in steals and 54th in assists. It isn't "gifting" minutes when the point is to develop the player. It would be stupid to draft a guy at 7 then bury him on the bench after 30 games in a clearly rebuilding season where the playoffs are a remote vision just because he doesn't match up with veteran starters in the league. There is no harm done in continuing to give Hayes starting minutes this season. It's the perfect opportunity to give him plenty of time to show what he can do.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#58 » by MotownMadness » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:25 pm

His defense is starting to show up, he's got a 1.3 DBPM which is pretty good at his age. Hard to show over a positive 1 in that category unless your a big man.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#59 » by bstein14 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:06 pm

Manocad wrote:
bstein14 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:So after 40 games who still thinks Hayes is a bust?

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He's still the worst starting PG in the league. I know he has improved but he also still has a long ways to go. If he isn't a decent starter in the league by his 4th year I would put that into the bust category for a #7 pick. We'll see if he gets there but the jury is still out.

After having the worst TS% of all players last year that played 20+ MPG, he now has the 7th worst TS% of all players in the league that play at least 20 MPG. He still hasn't hit a single two point shot that is outside of the paint this season.

In 25.3 MPG he's average 5.8 PPG. If you look at players that play more than 25 MPG he scores the least points per game in the entire league for players that play at least 25 MPG. If you look at players who play more than 25 MPG he has the worst FG% (31.8%) of any players in the entire league that play more than 25 MPG.

If we were gunning for the playoffs right now he couldn't be getting this many minutes per game with the production he is giving us. He is still a player being gifted minutes based on where he was drafted.

All of that said, its certainly encouraging to see the improvements we've seen from him and there is more hope from me that he ends up getting there as a player and plays well enough to be a part of the future but right now he still sucks. He probably wouldn't be in the rotation of about 25 teams in the league he is only playing for teams like us, OKC, Orlando, Houston, etc.

This isn't his 4th year. He also ranks 15th in steals and 54th in assists. It isn't "gifting" minutes when the point is to develop the player. It would be stupid to draft a guy at 7 then bury him on the bench after 30 games in a clearly rebuilding season where the playoffs are a remote vision just because he doesn't match up with veteran starters in the league. There is no harm done in continuing to give Hayes starting minutes this season. It's the perfect opportunity to give him plenty of time to show what he can do.


Him playing right now for us is for sure the correct move. Other teams trying to make the playoffs likely wouldn't have him in the rotation. Stanley Johnson's first season (73 games) with Detroit he put up 8.1 PPG on better %s and played good defense and he is out of the league now.... so I'm simply saying Hayes is far from a non bust at this point. He still has a long ways to go to carve a spot in this league for himself and most of that is going to be about improving his scoring.
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Re: Killian Hayes is now leading Detroit in 3 point shooting... 

Post#60 » by mattao313 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:26 pm

Pharaoh wrote:So after 40 games who still thinks Hayes is a bust?

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He's still a brutal player i dont think he has anyone second guessing their bust opinion.

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