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ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON.

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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#241 » by Vampirate » Tue Apr 5, 2022 1:54 am

Cowology wrote:Protecting the ball is almost always the #1 priority. If you don't have possession non of that other stuff matters. He needs to eliminate the lazy turnovers off passes. Half of them are telegraphed but he also doesn't hit the required velocity. Defenders are too smart & too quick at this level. They will get hands up and jump passing lanes if that ball doesn't get there quick enough.

A bad pass is also MUCH worse than a missed shot because it's a much higher conversion rate for the opposition. A lazy pass very frequently results in a quick 2 pts the other direction. Turnovers in the lane off dribble penetration are bad too, but typically result in fewer odd-man breaks.

Drawing fouls is the 2nd most important thing. Part of that will come naturally as the refs start giving him more respect, but there is also a skill to drawing the foul call. Putting pressure on opposing players/defenses, getting your team into the penalty and getting free points at the line are all huge benefits.

3pt shooting is substantially lower on my list of priorities. IF he never improves his outside shooting he can still be a damn good player, but he's gotta protect the ball and get to the line. It's all the players around him that need to improve their 3pt shooting.


What I gather, just like Barnes and Mobley, ball handling is a need to work on.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#242 » by whitehops » Tue Apr 5, 2022 2:49 am

Vampirate wrote:What I gather, just like Barnes and Mobley, ball handling is a need to work on.


i guess? those two are at a very different level of ball handling, they just all have to improve their ball handling relative to what their role requires of them.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#243 » by tmorgan » Tue Apr 5, 2022 4:45 am

Almost almost rookies need to improve their stamina or use of energy, and Cade is no different. Still, the bigger issue right now is that we don’t have a single average NBA guard on the roster except Cade, so he’s having to do waaaay too much. There’s still hope for Killian, but he’s clearly not up to average yet. CoJo does some things well, I suppose, but you can’t give him the keys if you want the offense to actually work. Lee, Edwards, Frank Jackson… these are fringe NBA players. It’s a real issue.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#244 » by Cowology » Tue Apr 5, 2022 5:11 am

tmorgan wrote:Almost almost rookies need to improve their stamina or use of energy, and Cade is no different. Still, the bigger issue right now is that we don’t have a single average NBA guard on the roster except Cade, so he’s having to do waaaay too much. There’s still hope for Killian, but he’s clearly not up to average yet. CoJo does some things well, I suppose, but you can’t give him the keys if you want the offense to actually work. Lee, Edwards, Frank Jackson… these are fringe NBA players. It’s a real issue.
One of the reasons I want a PG next to Cade is because it allows him to conserve energy. He's already a high usage player; if he has to run the offense on every possession and play defense it's just too much.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#245 » by whitehops » Tue Apr 5, 2022 5:18 pm

jalen green has been on a tear lately - averaging 31.5 PPG in his last four games (29 in his last 6). if cade doesn't play another game green just has to average 27 PPG in his remaining three games to pass cade for highest scoring rookie.

i dunno why but i don't want that to happen :(
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#246 » by Vampirate » Wed Apr 6, 2022 5:34 pm

I have no idea how the top 4 picks will progress as it could go any number of ways.

But if I had to major a guess, and i'll keep this on Cade since it's the Piston's board.

At the moment, I think Cade will be the best mid range player in the draft. I think he can do other things but when you think about what he's best at it's probably the mid range. I think Cade will be average/above average/good everywhere else, but where he's going to shine most is his ability to be a threat pretty much anywhere inside the 3 point line.

Here is Cade's shooting from 3 feet from the basket to the 3 point line.

44.0% from 3-10
43.8% from 10-16
31.4% from 16-3P

Given that he's a good FT shooter and has shot 40% from 3 in college, i'd wager he can get his percentages from 16-3P over 40% in the future.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#247 » by bstein14 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 3:04 am

Perkins voted for Barnes... as this week rolls on I'm sure we'll start to see more and more media personal post on their social media who they voted for. Image
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#248 » by Pharaoh » Thu Apr 7, 2022 6:27 am

bstein14 wrote:Perkins voted for Barnes... as this week rolls on I'm sure we'll start to see more and more media personal post on their social media who they voted for. Image
Shows why Perk gets mocked a lot tbh

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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#249 » by bstein14 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 12:03 pm

Pharaoh wrote:
bstein14 wrote:Perkins voted for Barnes... as this week rolls on I'm sure we'll start to see more and more media personal post on their social media who they voted for. Image
Shows why Perk gets mocked a lot tbh

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Barnes made a pretty strong case for himself. Being on a team that's likely the 5th seed in the East.

If you're just looking at raw stats and not thinking about efficiency you can use this formula.

PPG + RPG + APG + BPG + SPG - TO = Total
15.5 + 7.6 + 3.5 + 1.1 + 0.8 - 1.8 = 26.7 for Barnes
17.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 1.2 + 0.7 - 3.6 = 26.8 for Cade

So the raw stats pretty much come out equal, and Barnes is much more efficient scoring overall, a better defender, and on a better team. I think Barnes has a pretty strong case for ROY.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#250 » by flow » Thu Apr 7, 2022 3:14 pm

bstein14 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:
bstein14 wrote:Perkins voted for Barnes... as this week rolls on I'm sure we'll start to see more and more media personal post on their social media who they voted for. Image
Shows why Perk gets mocked a lot tbh

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app


Barnes made a pretty strong case for himself. Being on a team that's likely the 5th seed in the East.

If you're just looking at raw stats and not thinking about efficiency you can use this formula.

PPG + RPG + APG + BPG + SPG - TO = Total
15.5 + 7.6 + 3.5 + 1.1 + 0.8 - 1.8 = 26.7 for Barnes
17.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 1.2 + 0.7 - 3.6 = 26.8 for Cade

So the raw stats pretty much come out equal, and Barnes is much more efficient scoring overall, a better defender, and on a better team. I think Barnes has a pretty strong case for ROY.


Nearly everyone on this board heavily underrated Barnes at this time last year. When Toronto picked him over Suggs, they were clowned throughout the league. Didn't take long for them to get the last laugh. Barnes is legit, and is a legit ROY vote.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#251 » by Cowology » Thu Apr 7, 2022 3:30 pm

Post All-Star break (22 games) for Barnes;

17.8 ppg
8.0 rpg
3.8 apg
1.3 spg
1.8 to
.532 fg

Respectable numbers for sure.
Cade in that same span;

21.5 ppg
5.6 rpg
6.4 apg
1.1 spg
3.8 to
.464 fg

When you factor in defense & team record I think a Barnes vote is quite defensible. That doesn't mean he'll have the better career, but he's having a great rookie season on a winning club.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#252 » by zeebneeb » Thu Apr 7, 2022 8:19 pm

Updated. 2 games remain.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#253 » by vege » Thu Apr 7, 2022 10:55 pm

At this point, honestly I would be fine with either Cade or Mobley winning the ROY, anyone but Barnes, Barnes deserves to be in the conversation as much as Cade and Mobley, but Toronto fans are just too much, they don't deserve it.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#254 » by Snakebites » Thu Apr 7, 2022 11:00 pm

Pharaoh wrote:
bstein14 wrote:Perkins voted for Barnes... as this week rolls on I'm sure we'll start to see more and more media personal post on their social media who they voted for. Image
Shows why Perk gets mocked a lot tbh

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

I'm all in for Cade, but I don't think the notion of Barnes being ROY is mockable.

Now Smart as DPOY, that's another story...
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#255 » by Cowology » Thu Apr 7, 2022 11:15 pm

It's hard for any guard to be DPOY. You basically need to be Gary Payton. Defensive bigs just have a much bigger impact with the way they control the paint. It's sorta that whole Big Ben vs. Artest argument; one guy was an absolute 1v1 lockdown defender... but the other guy impacted the way an entire opposing team had to play. You're almost always going to want the Mutumbo, Hakeem, Duncan or Gobert type.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#256 » by Snakebites » Thu Apr 7, 2022 11:23 pm

Cowology wrote:It's hard for any guard to be DPOY. You basically need to be Gary Payton. Defensive bigs just have a much bigger impact with the way they control the paint. It's sorta that whole Big Ben vs. Artest argument; one guy was an absolute 1v1 lockdown defender... but the other guy impacted the way an entire opposing team had to play. You're almost always going to want the Mutumbo, Hakeem, Duncan or Gobert type.


I almost think a perimeter guy needs to be an elite team/perimeter help defender to really be qualified to be DPOY. Someone who effects more than the guy he's guarding.

Scottie Pippen for instance. Who...ironically never won the award. Go figure.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED+full tank watch(T-1st) 

Post#257 » by bstein14 » Fri Apr 8, 2022 12:27 am

Snakebites wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:
bstein14 wrote:Perkins voted for Barnes... as this week rolls on I'm sure we'll start to see more and more media personal post on their social media who they voted for. Image
Shows why Perk gets mocked a lot tbh

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

I'm all in for Cade, but I don't think the notion of Barnes being ROY is mockable.

Now Smart as DPOY, that's another story...



I believe I saw a stat earlier that Smart was the best player in the league when it came to opponents FG% after a switch. Bigger guys try to switch on him and he out muscles them and forces them into bad shots.

Boston is the #1 ranked defense in the NBA.
Boston leads the league in opponent FG% allowed at just 43.4%
Boston leads the league in opponent 3pt% at just 33.9% allowed
Boston leads the league in opponents PPG at 104.1

I think Marcus Smart is probably a top 10 defender this year, but in reality so is their starting center Robert William.... and Tatum and Brown are also solid defenders as well.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#258 » by Cowology » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:59 pm

At least one guy (Mike Schmitz) is voting for Cade and making a pretty good argument. This is the type of breakdown and attention to detail that we need for Cade to have a shot. *knock on wood*

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/33699773/nba-rookie-power-rankings-our-10-best-first-year-players

The video breakdown with Cade is a good watch.

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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#259 » by Snakebites » Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:18 pm

Don’t have ESPN+ but…

It’s hard. I prefer Cade as a player and would like to see him win, but the stats and impact metrics favor Barnes or Mobley.

In fairness, both have different (smaller) roles on offense than Cade has had to shoulder and are in better team situations, so it’s totally understandable that their efficiency and advanced stats look better- I’m not trading Cade for either of them, but it’s hard for me to say that, purely for this season, Cade deserves it over them.
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Re: ROY WATCH STATS INCLUDED END OF SEASON SOON. 

Post#260 » by Cowology » Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:34 pm

Snakebites wrote:Don’t have ESPN+ but…

It’s hard. I prefer Cade as a player and would like to see him win, but the stats and impact metrics favor Barnes or Mobley.

In fairness, both have different (smaller) roles on offense than Cade has had to shoulder and are in better team situations, so it’s totally understandable that their efficiency and advanced stats look better- I’m not trading Cade for either of them, but it’s hard for me to say that, purely for this season, Cade deserves it over them.

I didn't think I had it either, but evidently I signed up at some point lol I think it was a bundle deal for Hulu/Disney/ESPN+ that I signed up for entirely for the other 2 services.

Anyway, I can't post the whole thing, but here are a few snippets.

"In 20 games after the All-Star break, Cunningham averaged 21.1 points, 6.5 assists and 5.7 rebounds with 53% true shooting. The list of players averaging at least 21-5-5 on over 53% true shooting features mostly All-Stars and MVPs: Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Ja Morant, Jimmy Butler, James Harden, Steph Curry, Pascal Siakam and Brandon Ingram. Not only did Cunningham put up traditional counting stats with by far the highest usage rate among rookies (27.7), but Detroit went 8-12 with the No. 1 pick in the lineup post-All-Star break. For the entire season, the Pistons are 20-44 with Cunningham in the lineup and 3-14 without him."

"The ROY award is clearly based on the full season, and his post-All-Star break run is less than a fourth of 82 games. Despite the slow start, he still leads all rookies in scoring while only 37% of his total made baskets were assisted, one of the lowest rates in the NBA. For reference, 48% of Barnes' buckets were assisted, while 67% of Mobley's were created by his teammates (according to CleaningTheGlass.com), which emphasizes the difference in role. He also finished second in assists (5.6 per game), third in made 3s and fifth in rebounds (5.5). He's one of only two rookie starters with a steal and block percentage over 1.8%, joining Herbert Jones."

"Add in the pick-and-roll feel, poise, skill level, positional size, defensive versatility, late-game comfort and the fact that he's highly regarded as a leader, Cunningham is about as complete a prospect as you'll find at this age. Although it took him some time to get going and there is a clear case for both Mobley and Barnes, Cunningham showed why he was the No. 1 pick with a Rookie of the Year-caliber campaign that has NBA stars and execs alike buzzing about his future."

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