Article: Killian Hayes is Bad

whitehops · Post #101 » by **whitehops** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 8:57 pm

Billl wrote:His assists were up in Feb, but we all know he can pass. Getting 5 assists in 20minutes off the bench would be awesome from a backup pg.

i think just looking at his assist numbers is not seeing the forest for the trees. what hayes is good at is seeing an open player and getting them the ball. that sounds great in theory, but running an offense/being a floor general is so much more that that. running an offense is seeing where the defense is and what they're doing. from there, they attack/manipulate the defense and create opportunities (not necessarily shots) for their teammates. what hayes does is dribble around almost aimlessly hoping to see an open teammate. i doubt hayes even looks at the defense, he just looks for open teammates. you can even see the difference in their command. cade motions to guys, tells them where to go, etc. whilst hayes just puts his head down and does his thing.

just look at how cade and hayes operate. their assist numbers are similar but the offense flows SO much better and is more productive with cade running the show whereas the bench go through huge droughts with hayes running the show.

for what it's worth i think cojo is a combination of the two. he sees the defense and manipulates it but is still fixed on getting his teammates open SHOTS instead of good opportunities, which essentially puts them in a position to make a play.

whitehops · Post #102 » by **whitehops** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 9:15 pm

i don't want to keep piling on but if you look at the lineup numbers: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2022/lineups/ then it becomes so much clearer that the team is better when hayes is off the floor.

the one that stands out first is the old starting lineup (cade/hayes/bey/grant/stewart) had a net rating of -19 points per 100 possessions in 254 minutes. replace hayes with cojo? that lineup has a net rating of -0.3 points per 100 possessions in 199 minutes. if you go through all the different 5-man, 4-man, 3-man and 2-man combos almost none of the best ones have hayes on them. the few that do are ones with cade.

bstein14 · Post #103 » by **bstein14** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 9:22 pm

vege wrote:I would rather have cap space than pick up his option. If we add another guard, where is he going to get minutes? I doubt we will tank again, and I am 100% sure CoJo would get minutes over him.

Hayes had his chance, he is not good enough to waste 3 years trying to develop him, he didn't do anything to be worth that, we should just move on.

He is already under contract for this upcoming season.

Cade 35 MPG at PG and Hayes 13 MPG as his backup might be where we're at if we end up keeping him in the rotation. Hopefully we get another guard that plays next to Cade as a starter. If CoJo is the backup for Cade next season, then let Hayes make the big bucks down in the G League with the Cruise.

Piston Pete · Post #104 » by **Piston Pete** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 9:25 pm

But not under contract for the 2023 offseason, unless we pick up his option.

440BB · Post #105 » by **440BB** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 10:20 pm

I'm having a hard time seeing the Pistons pick up Hayes' option of $7.4 million, let alone his 24-25 QO of $9.9 million. Unless he shows significant shooting improvement through summer league, he may be a useful backup but not at those prices. Barring a miracle I expect Weaver to decline his option, then pick him up at market value after next season if he wants him. A two year deal in the Diallo range at most if they see him improving.

edmunder_prc · Post #106 » by **edmunder_prc** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 10:35 pm

Will be interesting to see what Weaver does with Killian.

If the team is going to try and tank again next year, by all means give Killian minutes (unless we draft a guard, in which case its game over for him).

If the team wants to be good next year - Killian is not part of winning basketball on average.

DBC10 · Post #107 » by **DBC10** » Fri Mar 4, 2022 11:04 pm

whitehops wrote:i don't want to keep piling on but if you look at the lineup numbers: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2022/lineups/ then it becomes so much clearer that the team is better when hayes is off the floor.

the one that stands out first is the old starting lineup (cade/hayes/bey/grant/stewart) had a net rating of -19 points per 100 possessions in 254 minutes. replace hayes with cojo? that lineup has a net rating of -0.3 points per 100 possessions in 199 minutes. if you go through all the different 5-man, 4-man, 3-man and 2-man combos almost none of the best ones have hayes on them. the few that do are ones with cade.

Which justifies the Cojo minutes as much as they are often bleak looking at times just due to random Cojo shenanigans. It's even more apparent during crunch time, Cojo is the preferred guard 9 out of 10 times there to pair with Cade and the starters

I'm curious what happens during the next draft and the offseason. We need a point guard that's not a horrific shooter in the worst way and pick up a few more plus shooters wouldn't be a bad thing either to help get Cade, Bey, and Grant even more space to operate. Assuming we also address rebounding and interior presence too

Moses ShamMoses · Post #108 » by **Moses ShamMoses** » Tue Mar 8, 2022 3:56 am

Killian already checks many of the boxes you want from a point guard. He's a terrific passer, doesn't turn it over much, plays hard defense, is long and strong. It's just the poor shooting holding him back. It's crazy somebody with such great touch and accuracy on his passes is such a poor, inaccurate shooter. If he can ever figure it out, even be a league average shooter, he'll live up to his #7 draft status just based on those other factors I mentioned.

Post #109 » by **Cowology** » Tue Mar 8, 2022 4:03 am

Moses ShamMoses wrote:Killian already checks many of the boxes you want from a point guard. He's a terrific passer, doesn't turn it over much, plays hard defense, is long and strong. It's just the poor shooting holding him back. It's crazy somebody with such great touch and accuracy on his passes is such a poor, inaccurate shooter. If he can ever figure it out, even be a league average shooter, he'll live up to his #7 draft status just based on those other factors I mentioned.

If he could learn to shoot/finish he'd be a solid player. It's just really hard to be a rotation player in this league, particularly as a primary ball-handler, when you can't do that.

Tonight was nice. All credit where it's due, and IF he could play like that consistently he'd be a fine 3rd guard. Maybe even a decent starter next to Cade. He does do other things well. But he HAS to fix that part of his game. I get that he's young and only played X number of games, but we aren't talking about being weak and needing to improve; we are talking about being historically bad and needing to make a significant jump. If the gap weren't so wide I'd have more faith in his "potential" based on his age. If he showed flashes with some consistency that would be something, but so far that hasn't happened. Maybe this will be the start of that, but it's still a looong road.

I really hope he continues to develop. I do. I'm pulling for the kid.

whitehops · Post #110 » by **whitehops** » Tue Mar 8, 2022 4:19 am

to put tonight's game into context: killian's 13 points TIED the second most points he's scored in his 79 career games. to reiterate, he's scored 14 or more points only ONCE in his career 79 games. CoJo has put up 14+ 10 times this season alone.

it's obviously nice to see him play better but if a dude puts up a career performance and it's a 13/6 statline i think that says everything you need to know.

MrBigShot · Post #111 » by **MrBigShot** » Tue Mar 8, 2022 8:37 am

Yeah unfortunately the question for Kilian at this point is can be become a high quality back up PG.

El Chivo · Post #112 » by **El Chivo** » Tue Mar 8, 2022 8:40 am

he's improving, but he's still in Frank Ntilikina's territory.

Manocad · Post #113 » by **Manocad** » Tue Mar 8, 2022 12:37 pm

whitehops wrote:to put tonight's game into context: killian's 13 points TIED the second most points he's scored in his 79 career games. to reiterate, he's scored 14 or more points only ONCE in his career 79 games. CoJo has put up 14+ 10 times this season alone.

it's obviously nice to see him play better but if a dude puts up a career performance and it's a 13/6 statline i think that says everything you need to know.

That he's still under contract next season and will still be with the team next year is what that says, if I had to place a bet.

DET_Athletics · Post #114 » by **DET_Athletics** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:51 am

I hope everyone is taking notice of how bad our second unit is playing without him directing on the floor, he has been very missed. Our winning streak would probably still be alive if we had him and Stewart in the lineup. That being said he isnt starter quality yet, but is not a bust. It's a knee jerk reaction because you are comparing him with players we could have drafted. I.e. Haliburton. Killian is still improving and has room for more growth. He is going to be an important piece for us moving forward.

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Post #115 » by **Cowology** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:05 am

DET_Athletics wrote:I hope everyone is taking notice of how bad our second unit is playing without him directing on the floor, he has been very missed. Our winning streak would probably still be alive if we had him and Stewart in the lineup. That being said he isnt starter quality yet, but is not a bust. It's a knee jerk reaction because you are comparing him with players we could have drafted. I.e. Haliburton. Killian is still improving and has room for more growth. He is going to be an important piece for us moving forward.

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I wouldn't wanna put "Better than Saben Lee" on my resume, but if that works for you...

Manocad · Post #116 » by **Manocad** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:22 pm

Cowology wrote:
DET_Athletics wrote:I hope everyone is taking notice of how bad our second unit is playing without him directing on the floor, he has been very missed. Our winning streak would probably still be alive if we had him and Stewart in the lineup. That being said he isnt starter quality yet, but is not a bust. It's a knee jerk reaction because you are comparing him with players we could have drafted. I.e. Haliburton. Killian is still improving and has room for more growth. He is going to be an important piece for us moving forward.

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I wouldn't wanna put "Better than Saben Lee" on my resume, but if that works for you...

There were people here saying it was basically carved in stone that Hayes was already a bust and touting Lee as being much more deserving of Hayes' minutes because he was a lot better scorer. I hope both players develop well because they're on the team, but if Hayes should be considered a bust at this point I don't know how anyone could possibly be holding Lee up as the heir apparent bench PG. He sucks at EVERYTHING. I don't care what he showed in the G-league; it clearly has NOT translated to his time in real NBA games.

bstein14 · Post #117 » by **bstein14** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:44 pm

Manocad wrote:
Cowology wrote:
DET_Athletics wrote:I hope everyone is taking notice of how bad our second unit is playing without him directing on the floor, he has been very missed. Our winning streak would probably still be alive if we had him and Stewart in the lineup. That being said he isnt starter quality yet, but is not a bust. It's a knee jerk reaction because you are comparing him with players we could have drafted. I.e. Haliburton. Killian is still improving and has room for more growth. He is going to be an important piece for us moving forward.

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I wouldn't wanna put "Better than Saben Lee" on my resume, but if that works for you...

There were people here saying it was basically carved in stone that Hayes was already a bust and touting Lee as being much more deserving of Hayes' minutes because he was a lot better scorer. I hope both players develop well because they're on the team, but if Hayes should be considered a bust at this point I don't know how anyone could possibly be holding Lee up as the heir apparent bench PG. He sucks at EVERYTHING. I don't care what he showed in the G-league; it clearly has NOT translated to his time in real NBA games.

Saben Lee was much better as a rookie and in summer league. Yet Hayes got to start this season based on where he was drafted and Lee was sent down to the G League. If Saben was gifted the playing time that Hayes has been he'd be much further along and better as a player than Hayes is now.

Manocad · Post #118 » by **Manocad** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:50 pm

bstein14 wrote:
Manocad wrote:
Cowology wrote:I wouldn't wanna put "Better than Saben Lee" on my resume, but if that works for you...

There were people here saying it was basically carved in stone that Hayes was already a bust and touting Lee as being much more deserving of Hayes' minutes because he was a lot better scorer. I hope both players develop well because they're on the team, but if Hayes should be considered a bust at this point I don't know how anyone could possibly be holding Lee up as the heir apparent bench PG. He sucks at EVERYTHING. I don't care what he showed in the G-league; it clearly has NOT translated to his time in real NBA games.

Saben Lee was much better as a rookie and in summer league. Yet Hayes got to start this season based on where he was drafted and Lee was sent down to the G League. If Saben was gifted the playing time that Hayes has been he'd be much further along and better as a player than Hayes is now.

That's purely speculation based on nothing. Clearly Lee can tear it up in the G-league then comes into NBA games and falls flat on his face. You can't ignore that and chalk it up to "Well, if he had been given Hayes' minutes he'd be better." There's clearly something wrong there.

Post #119 » by **Cowology** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:52 pm

I'm of the opinion that regardless of Hayes it was worth taking another look at Lee. But we shoulda gotten that outa the way and outa our systems by now.

flow · Post #120 » by **flow** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:03 pm

DET_Athletics wrote:I hope everyone is taking notice of how bad our second unit is playing without him directing on the floor, he has been very missed.

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What was the 2nd unit yesterday?