Article: Killian Hayes is Bad

[flow]

I'm of the opinion that regardless of Hayes it was worth taking another look at Lee. But we shoulda gotten that outa the way and outa our systems by now.

But we haven't, because Cory Joseph is still playing 35 minutes. Casey should be indicted. Or committed.

[Manocad]

I'm of the opinion that regardless of Hayes it was worth taking another look at Lee. But we shoulda gotten that outa the way and outa our systems by now.

Absolutely. Evaluating both of them isn't a mutually exclusive concept and it isn't a "must be one or the other" proposition. It could be one or the other, both, or neither. Obviously some people here don't like Hayes, thought he was drafted too high, and didn't deserve the chances he got. And that's fine, but I still don't see how people can say that the team has gone overboard with Hayes relative to the minutes he's been given vs demonstration of potential/success then turn around and act like Lee was a much better option. Hayes just needs to be a dependable scorer. If he could put up 10-12 a game on 45%/35% to go along with the passing and defense he's played this wouldn't even be a conversation other than him not being worthy of being drafted at 7. Lee on the other hand hasn't been able to do the ONE THING that he's supposedly so much better than Hayes at.

[440BB]

Lee seems to need a lot of minutes to get into a rhythm and/or play more relaxed and consistently. With plenty of minutes in the G league he looks like a different player. The talent is there to be a backup guard but I don't see it blossoming here unless he can figure out how to contribute in a smaller role. I really liked him coming in but time is running out.

[mattao313]

LoL Hayes has been trash all season yet people keep defending this man.

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[Manocad]

LoL Hayes has been trash all season yet people keep defending this man.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

Nope. No one has defended Hayes one bit; he's been bad and the stats clearly bear that out. Same with Lee. The only point ever argued was that given the current situation there's no reason to discard Hayes immediately which is what people were insisting should happen--he's clearly a bust, never going to amount to anything, get rid of him now, he shouldn't get any real minutes, etc. That shouldn't apply to either Hayes or Lee right now.

People want to tank then holler about bad players getting minutes. Make up your mind.

[Cowology]

Lee seems to need a lot of minutes to get into a rhythm and/or play more relaxed and consistently. With plenty of minutes in the G league he looks like a different player. The talent is there to be a backup guard but I don't see it blossoming here unless he can figure out how to contribute in a smaller role. I really liked him coming in but time is running out.

Fair or not the reality for a lot of these guys is they need to make the most of the opportunities they are given. People can bemoan that fact or they can accept it. Livers is an example of a guy who showed up ready to ball. The only thing Lee has shown is that he knows how to get his shot blocked.

Here's the thing; even players who "need to develop" have to be able to demonstrate some type of NBA worthy value or skillset just to continue that opportunity. Nobody grabs the rec league guy and thinks "he just needs more time, keep playing him". There has to be something to justify the investment.

If it's Livers then he's showing good defense, the ability to make smart plays and knock down some open shots. That earns him the ability to continue his development. Hayes has at least demonstrated some ballhandling/passing abilities & defense. We know his individual offense is broken, but he's at least brought something to the table which has earned him the opportunity to continue developing his offensive game. And to be clear; I am NOT a Hayes fan. I'm talking on principle here.

Lee hasn't shown anything. And the reality is most bench players are expected to come in cold and produce in limited minutes, so if that is going to be a mental hurdle to his success that he needs to figure that **** out. The onus is not on the organization to play him extensive minutes when he's done nothing at this level to justify or earn that opportunity. He's gotta be ready to come in and produce. That's how he earns more minutes to develop. Clearly he isn't ready yet. He'll likely get a few more opportunities down the stretch due to injuries and tanking, but he has to be able to help himself here. Nobody is going to gift him a thing.

[tmorgan]

Our non-Cade guard selection is truly awful. Like, I’ve never seen worse anywhere ever.

I’ve always been a Killian guy, and I still am… but he’s pretty awful. This off-season is his last one to gain confidence in his shot and get a floater. Doesn’t do it? Gotta go.

[Manocad]

Our non-Cade guard selection is truly awful. Like, I’ve never seen worse anywhere ever.

I’ve always been a Killian guy, and I still am… but he’s pretty awful. This off-season is his last one to gain confidence in his shot and get a floater. Doesn’t do it? Gotta go.

Since he's still under contract through next season my guess is he's going to be playing here next year too. Then obviously if he doesn't improve the team just declines their option or moves him in part of a trade. But I doubt the team is looking at it as he either has to improve or he's gone by the start of next season. Since he's still under contract he has to go somewhere and obviously the Pistons can't make someone want to trade for him.

[zeebneeb]

I'm still on the Hayes wagon as well, as he's a good defender, and has really good court vision.

With that said, holy crap he has to start shooting, and practice the hell out of shooting. I don't think anyone would have any complaints of he could shoot the damn ball, or just be more assertive even. He's like a shorter Ben Simmons, and that is not a good thing.

Fair or not, next year I feel will be his make it, or break it year.

[ComboGuardCity]

I don’t want to make excuses for Killian, but I guess I do. He was shooting the left side of the court 3 at a decent clip before he hurt his hand. The guy shoots free throws well which is strongly correlated to developing at least a reliable jumper. I don’t think he’s going to be a star, but he could be a serviceable player and the perfect complement to Cade as a 3&D guard who fan push on the break too. Cade is going to have a crazy workload in the half court offensively as he should. He needs someone who can match up with the better guard on the other end and Killian has shown he can do that. If he can just add a jumper we’re golden.

[DBC10]

I'm still on the Hayes wagon as well, as he's a good defender, and has really good court vision.

With that said, holy crap he has to start shooting, and practice the hell out of shooting. I don't think anyone would have any complaints of he could shoot the damn ball, or just be more assertive even. He's like a shorter Ben Simmons, and that is not a good thing.

Fair or not, next year I feel will be his make it, or break it year.

Eh he'll definitely get one more year before they act on his contract/pull offers, etc etc so nothing to note there. But I'm not particularly hopeful just based on the early returns even at the beginning of the season. He just looks off on his shots and his confidence on the offensive end just isn't there when he was playing. Him coming off the bench was much needed and it seemed to have helped somewhat but his trajectory seems to have made no significant difference since he came to the league

At least he does shoot wide open jumpers unlike Ben who will just give it up at the rim to a teammate

[Cowology]

Killian isn't just bad, he's historically bad. The distance he needs to travel just to make it to bad is significant. It's not impossible, but incremental improvement isn't going to cut it. He's gotta work on his shot and make a BIG jump this Summer.

Part of the appeal to rookie contracts is in hoping the player outperforms their contract. It's keeping talent locked up on the cheap. But at $7 mil we could go out and find a replacement that is comparable even IF Hayes makes a jump. It's OK to not like it. We have invested a pick and time. It feels bad. But in a vacuum is he worth $7.5? Is he going to be worth that $10 mil QO & $22 mil cap hold? Probably not.

[Piston Pete]

Cow says Hayes is utterly pathetic.

[Cowology]

Cow says Hayes is utterly pathetic.

Cow says his scoring ability is utterly pathetic and the metrics back that up 100%.

Cow also said "Hayes has at least demonstrated some ballhandling/passing abilities & defense. We know his individual offense is broken, but he's at least brought something to the table which has earned him the opportunity to continue developing his offensive game." about 4 posts above that one on this same page.

Knock that **** off.

[mattao313]

He lost his starting spot to friggin Corey Joseph that should tell you all you need to know about him.

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[Piston Pete]

Cow says Hayes is utterly pathetic.

Cow says his scoring ability is utterly pathetic and the metrics back that up 100%.

Cow also said "Hayes has at least demonstrated some ballhandling/passing abilities & defense. We know his individual offense is broken, but he's at least brought something to the table which has earned him the opportunity to continue developing his offensive game." about 4 posts above that one on this same page.

Knock that **** off.

You need a drink, you completely missed the hilarious joke.

I agree with you.

[440BB]

I guess he was just...

[Cowology]

Cow says Hayes is utterly pathetic.

Cow says his scoring ability is utterly pathetic and the metrics back that up 100%.

Cow also said "Hayes has at least demonstrated some ballhandling/passing abilities & defense. We know his individual offense is broken, but he's at least brought something to the table which has earned him the opportunity to continue developing his offensive game." about 4 posts above that one on this same page.

Knock that **** off.

You need a drink, you completely missed the hilarious joke.

I agree with you.

Apologies - I did indeed misunderstand your intent.

[bstein14]

Even if we think that Killian might be an ok backup PG by year 4, we should still consider declining his 4th year option. The odds of him getting a $7+ million deal on the open market is super slim.... especially if he's just Cade's 15 MPG backup next season.

He's shown less than Josh Jackson, who were were able to get coming off his rookie deal for just $4.8 million per year. The odds are that even if we want to try to keep on developing Hayes we'll be able to give him something like a 3 year $12 million deal and no one else jumps in to give him more. If they do, losing him isn't much of a risk at this point and we can better use that $7+ million of cap space next summer.

[Cowology]

Even if we think that Killian might be an ok backup PG by year 4, we should still consider declining his 4th year option. The odds of him getting a $7+ million deal on the open market is super slim.... especially if he's just Cade's 15 MPG backup next season.

He's shown less than Josh Jackson, who were were able to get coming off his rookie deal for just $4.8 million per year. The odds are that even if we want to try to keep on developing Hayes we'll be able to give him something like a 3 year $12 million deal and no one else jumps in to give him more. If they do, losing him isn't much of a risk at this point and we can better use that $7+ million of cap space next summer.

Agree 100%.