RealGM

Article from today reflects a lot of what is said on here in both directions.

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2022/1/20/22891869/detroit-pistons-killian-hayes-is-bad

I cant remember pulling for a player as much as I have for Killian to just have it click (mostly with his shot and offensive aggressiveness) and yet it hasnt yet.

I think it was Tim McCormick in the postgame last night that said that Hayes would have a hard time fitting back into the rotation and may be better off on the second unit. It was a relief to hear someone on the broadcast team acknowledge what many of us see. Hayes may find his shot and more success playing against backups, maybe the right developmental step at this point.

That article was pretty fair in showing where Hayes' offensive game is at. My expectation is that Hayes ends up as a defensive minded backup PG. I've lowered it over this season.

Let's see if Weaver still sees a potential starter or a bench player by the season's end.

The toughest part about this is how low of a percentage he has finishing at and around the rim. His 3 point percentage in the corners is fine (38% combined) but he's just really struggled to score once he gets the ball inside within 2 to 8 feet.

See, folks? THAT'S how you make an argument. Present actual data, throw in some subjective analysis and consider the repercussions and outcomes of actions taken. Let me give you the Cliff's Notes:

Hayes is objectively bad; the stats prove it. Rarely has a player gone on to become a valuable player from the point Hayes is at after 50 games, but it has happened. He has some very good passing and defensive potential so throw him on the floor for the rest of the season (i.e. give him real minutes), let him sink or swim, make the 2022 draft pick and then make a decision on Hayes at that point because having him on the floor right now doesn't negatively impact the development of other players.

All 100% fair and logical IMO. And nowhere in there did it say "Hayes IS a bust, he'll never amount to anything, move on now." Simply put, be patient for the rest of the season.

bstein14 wrote:

The toughest part about this is how low of a percentage he has finishing at and around the rim. His 3 point percentage in the corners is fine (38% combined) but he's just really struggled to score once he gets the ball inside within 2 to 8 feet.

Like the article says, I agree that he needs to use his size more to his advantage when he goes at the rim. He clearly looks like a strong player, he's got a big body for a guard, and he's showed that he can dunk pretty easily. Start trying to dunk more instead of going for a layup.

Statistically Hayes has been a bad shooter and finisher. However, he’s still shooting 80+% from the line which makes me think he can one day be a serviceable shooter. He’s already a great defender and has excellent vision. He needs to either become an average 3pm shooter or develop a strong in between game (way less likely). I’ll take my chances on the shooting and say continue to give him opportunities through next year. Hell, he’s already shooting 40+% on the left half of the 3 point line.

He's a bust. Bench him.

2+2=4

440BB wrote:I think it was Tim McCormick in the postgame last night that said that Hayes would have a hard time fitting back into the rotation and may be better off on the second unit. It was a relief to hear someone on the broadcast team acknowledge what many of us see. Hayes may find his shot and more success playing against backups, maybe the right developmental step at this point.

That article was pretty fair in showing where Hayes' offensive game is at. My expectation is that Hayes ends up as a defensive minded backup PG. I've lowered it over this season.

Let's see if Weaver still sees a potential starter or a bench player by the season's end.

I don’t even think that it is a matter of seeing him as a starter or a bench player.

I think it’s not gifting him an undeserved starter role because of his draft status.

If he plays well off the bench or develops some confidence in the G-league he can regain a starting spot.

I don't know if Hayes is ever going to develop as a PG, but I'm pretty darn sure he's never going to develop as a SG. He's going to need the ball in his hands fairly regularly and he's going to need some decent pick and roll/pop action out of that. And then he's going to have to go quick enough that our primary scorers have time to get the ball back and make a move against a rotating defense. Obviously we still need cade being the 1a threat, but a Hayes/KO pick and roll with Cade, Bey, and Grant as targets should be something they look at for the remainder of the season.

I saw that article and remembered all the debates on here about what to do with him or just have patience. Like some of you rightfully point out, the takeaway is you can't just keep giving him a starting role when so many of his teammates would play that same role so much better. It also baffles me because Killian I think would play better off the bench.

And really, I just don't him being an NBA player. Those exceptions to the rule...well...does anyone really think Killian is about to take the trajectory of Lonzo Ball?

GreekAlex wrote:
I think it’s not gifting him an undeserved starter role because of his draft status.

Honestly, this is the biggest issue for me. I'm OK with the kid getting some burn. I recognize that we have invested a fair amount of time/resources and wanting to get some type of return provides an impetus for keeping him in the rotation. It would feel bad to say that was a waste of a valuable pick.

At the end of the day it's not really about Hayes so much as it is about recognizing and rewarding other players for their efforts & contributions. If we want to seriously talk about building a winning culture, well to me that is part of it. They have to earn it, but when they do you damn well better reward it. That's how you develop trust & loyalty.

Billl wrote:I don't know if Hayes is ever going to develop as a PG, but I'm pretty darn sure he's never going to develop as a SG. He's going to need the ball in his hands fairly regularly and he's going to need some decent pick and roll/pop action out of that. And then he's going to have to go quick enough that our primary scorers have time to get the ball back and make a move against a rotating defense. Obviously we still need cade being the 1a threat, but a Hayes/KO pick and roll with Cade, Bey, and Grant as targets should be something they look at for the remainder of the season.

Yeah Hayes as the SG next to Cade is insulting to other guys on the team.

Cade has a lot of potential and the ball needs to be in his hands all the time - not in one of the worst players on the team. Let's say Cade is supposed to be like a Luka type player. Do you really want a ball dominant, non shooting player as the PG? No one would say that.

Put a super efficient shooter next to Cade, Cade is going to look much better. Essentially Bey-type at the 1. Then Bey at the 3. A taller player at PF and KO at C.

Manocad wrote:See, folks? THAT'S how you make an argument. Present actual data, throw in some subjective analysis and consider the repercussions and outcomes of actions taken.

you mean more than "27 games!"?

Sort wrote:I saw that article and remembered all the debates on here about what to do with him or just have patience. Like some of you rightfully point out, the takeaway is you can't just keep giving him a starting role when so many of his teammates would play that same role so much better. It also baffles me because Killian I think would play better off the bench.

And really, I just don't him being an NBA player. Those exceptions to the rule...well...does anyone really think Killian is about to take the trajectory of Lonzo Ball?

And that's the entire debate. Who are these "so many of his teammates"?

"So many of his teammates"?

What?

Who? Cade needs a shooter next to him if he is going to be the primary ball handler going forward. Your choices are Frank Jackson, Josh Jackson, or Diallo. Frank being the best choice as he can actually shoot the ball, but his defense is spotty.

If you could combine Diallo and Frank, you'd have an amazing player next to Cade.

Cade
Frank
Bey
Lyles
Olynyk

Would be optimal for shooting purposes, but with Frank out, Diallo it is.

Stewart either needs to start shooting the ball at a much higher clip, and become a threat, or come off the bench.

Cowology wrote:He's a bust. Bench him.

I think if you strip away the emotional investment this is probably what most would say.

Put it another way: if he was on another team, would we see value in him based off his play?

I don’t care about this year, let him start this year. But if he only gets a little better by the end of the year, it’s time to bring in someone. Either draft Jaden Ivey or bring in a free agent like Jalen Brunson.

Hayes wouldnt last a month on any other team in the NBA - he would be sent to the G league or released

Weaver is too proud or too embarrassed (or both) to admit he is a complete and utter bust

If anything he is stunting Cade's growth as a player