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S&T deals for Ayton

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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#281 » by NYPiston » Mon May 16, 2022 6:51 pm

Snakebites wrote:Yeah, I just don’t see the value in marginal incremental upgrades when we’re the third worst team.

And it’s not like those guys would be super-cheap either.


No, but I don't see Sexton as a marginal upgrade on Joseph or what Hayes is now especially offensively.
But yeah, none of these guys will be super cheap but you're not getting anybody meaningful for cheap unless it's an under the radar player that you see major growth potential in. Somebody like Diallo but better, somebody like Simons before he broke out last season is a good example.

Other than that, you're going to pay somebody if you want more significant improvement in the short term or just continue the slower growth internally with cheaper adds which is fine too as there's no need to force a fast track at this time.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#282 » by MotownMadness » Mon May 16, 2022 6:53 pm

buzzkilloton wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:Yeah everyone always thinks theres better options for us but your not getting a 24 year old big man as talented as Ayton in any other way aside from this.

If players dont have some sort of question mark with their current team then they're not gettable for us anyways so you take these chances like we have always done with trades and hope they put it together here.


I feel like we see stars moved fairly often in the past 10 years. Even guys moved to places they dont want to be like Butler moved to the Wolves,Leonard to the raptors, and Blake to the Pistons. If we keep stacking assets we will be in line to grab someone better then Ayton when we want to.

Also Weaver isnt are past GMs he has alot of connections in the league. Look at how he stole Grant from the Nuggs on a equal value deal. Leave him some flexibility there is no telling who may want to come here in the next couple seasons esp if Cade becomes what we think he will.

Sure we can take chances by giving up top 10 level picks in trades for disgruntled stars when one eventually becomes available.

But a Sign and Trade for a pretty damn good big man former #1 pick not even in his prime is rare. I dont even know how possible it is to get him but if he does come here its through sign and trade.

That's a much cheaper route then selling the farm for a star with a few years left on his deal.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#283 » by buzzkilloton » Mon May 16, 2022 7:07 pm

The Mavs just wrecked the Suns with Dwight Powell at center. Having a random rim protector and Stewart and using the cash else where makes alot of since.

Also are we to eager to spend a bunch of money to replace Stewart? I get drafting a guy if the right prospect there but Stewart really improved last season. Stewart is 20 years old he actually could turn out to be better then Ayton. Not saying its likely and I still see him more as a strong backup but surely there is a world where Stewart turns into a better player. He keeps hitting 3s at a high clip with his ability to switch and suddenly he fits the modern game better then a dinosaur paint big like Ayton.

James Edwards did a article a month ago on Stewart and hes ultra bullish.

https://theathletic.com/3250995/2022/04/18/detroit-pistons-isaiah-stewart/

"Going into the offseason, Stewart takes with him a blueprint to becoming a successful starting big man in the NBA. He’s got the potential to blend a rare combination of touch and aggression. Not many bigs who play hard like Stewart have the shooting chops that he has. And not many bigs who can shoot have the never-ending motor that’s inside of Stewart.

When you really examine how the 20-year-old ended the season, it’s tough not to see a path to him being a long-term starter in this league. We talked about the blossoming shooting stroke and the improved screening. But it’s on the defensive end where Stewart really entered a new conversation this season.

Essentially, the Pistons’ switching scheme is centered around Stewart’s ability to be a nuisance to opposing ballhandlers. He’s got long arms, quick feet and good instincts. Stewart doesn’t get jittery. He stays pretty grounded as guards and wings try to get him to dance. His hips turn like a sink handle. Teams tended to start games hunting the switch against Stewart, and then quickly learned that their time would be better spent elsewhere.

From Feb. 14, the last game before All-Star break, to the end of the regular season, the Pistons were the 13th-ranked defense in the NBA. Stewart’s ability to switch was a big reason why the team started to turn a corner down the stretch.

“I’m not surprised (that teams are hunting the Stewart switch) just because I’m sure that other guards probably call out that switch thinking that it’s sweet,” Cade Cunningham said. “We like it. I think he’s our best iso defender. The numbers say so. We like it, and we like that teams feel like they can go at him because he’s comfortable out there. It helps us.”

Stewart ended the season providing as many reasons for optimism as anyone. The defense was as good as it’s ever been. The 6-foot-8 center recorded double-digit rebounds in nine of the final 14 games. He shot over 60 percent from 3. Stewart’s limitations rest in his lack of verticality, but he has shown to do so many more things that equate to winning.

Around this time next year, it wouldn’t be surprising to hear Stewart’s name tossed around when postseason ballots come out and the NBA’s All-Defense teams are discussed. Honestly, had the Pistons campaigned even a little bit for the second-year big man to be on an All-Defense team, it’s possible that some chatter would have surfaced this season.

There are bits and pieces of Draymond Green’s game residing within Stewart. He doesn’t carry the basketball IQ of Green, who is one of the smartest players of his generation, but the intangibles and want are there. As Stewart gathers more experience and accumulates more of the tricks of the trade, and the Pistons turn a corner in the win column, it feels almost inevitable that he’ll be widely considered one of the more intriguing defenders in the game. If you’ve been paying attention, you might think so already.

Stewart is collecting all of the tools to become a legitimate big in the modern NBA. The more you watch him, the more you want to raise his ceiling. The shooting would put him in a different tier. It feels like it’s coming.

One day — and I think it arrives next year — Stewart is going to put it all together. And when it happens, the guy who has gotten by simply being relentless will really be a handful."
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#284 » by Invictus88 » Mon May 16, 2022 7:09 pm

MotownMadness wrote:Yeah everyone always thinks theres better options for us but your not getting a 24 year old big man as talented as Ayton in any other way aside from this.

If players dont have some sort of question mark with their current team then they're not gettable for us anyways so you take these chances like we have always done with trades and hope they put it together here.


I can see if you feel that Ayton is (was?) being misused in Phoenix that you'd say that the Pistons are taking a chance. But it's just not the case with him. He's plays 30 mpg and has a great pg feeding him the ball and a great supporting cast around him.

He delivers a reliable 20 and 12; with most of his buckets being at the basket extending to midrange. Negligible beyond the arc. Defensively and effort-wise in general he's been varied; looking great in small spurts but also disappearing as well.
Outside of the typical rookie growing pains he's been fairly consistent across his 4 seasons.

But when I say consistent I really do mean consistent. He hasn't really shown much that signals growth either. He is what he is. I think it's unrealistic to expect much different (especially from an improvement standpoint) if he comes here.

So what is that level of production worth to you? Is it worth 30 million per year for several years? Can you spend significantly less while getting a bit less at what he provides and use the spending difference elsewhere more effectively?

My take is that I don't see him as a foundational piece because what he offers is relatively commoditized across the NBA for the center/post positions. He's a bit more of a polished form, sure, but I don't see anything elite here. I don't think that extra polish warrants the excess money it would take to obtain him.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#285 » by DetroitSho » Mon May 16, 2022 7:09 pm

buzzkilloton wrote:
DetroitSho wrote:
buzzkilloton wrote:



He didnt average 22 8 he averaged almost 16 and 8.

I'm not maxing a player who when times are tough in game 7 hes arguing with my head coach but through the series is putting up worse numbers then he did in the reg season. When my all star backcourt isnt playing well hes not going to show up. This is why the Suns didnt max him when those other guys got maxed hes not worth it.
I stand corrected, I added up his point total and divided over 5 games instead of 7. But even with that, you're still using arbitrary objections for your reasoning. Like him averaging less than he did in the regular season.

He averaged 17.2 ppg for the season. Up until yesterday he was averaging 17.5 ppg in the series, so initially you would've maxed him and then 1 game would've changed it all for you. And again, if we paid him $28 million instead of $30 million would you be back on board since he's not a "max player"?

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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#286 » by buzzkilloton » Mon May 16, 2022 7:24 pm

DetroitSho wrote:
buzzkilloton wrote:
DetroitSho wrote:



He didnt average 22 8 he averaged almost 16 and 8.

I'm not maxing a player who when times are tough in game 7 hes arguing with my head coach but through the series is putting up worse numbers then he did in the reg season. When my all star backcourt isnt playing well hes not going to show up. This is why the Suns didnt max him when those other guys got maxed hes not worth it.
I stand corrected, I added up his point total and divided over 5 games instead of 7. But even with that, you're still using arbitrary objections for your reasoning. Like him averaging less than he did in the regular season.

He averaged 17.2 ppg for the season. Up until yesterday he was averaging 17.5 ppg in the series, so initially you would've maxed him and then 1 game would've changed it all for you. And again, if we paid him $28 million instead of $30 million would you be back on board since he's not a "max player"?

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I wasnt signing Ayton before game 7. I was still watching the playoffs and was open to my mind being changed as were many people. I've said I would take him before Brunson in free agency but thats because i value Brunson even less. I think him and Brunson are both going to end up being huge overpays and want nothing to do with either.

That said to come in and be like "omg people changed there mind on Ayton after game 7" when THEY SHOULD change there minds makes no sense. He literally is out there arguing with the coach getting benched showing hes a child and not producing in game 7.Mind you this is him playing contract year basketball and doing this its not a good look. Hell even his own team was on the fence about maxing him this season so of course fans should be debating it.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#287 » by bstein14 » Tue May 17, 2022 12:27 am

As much as I think Ayton would be solid for us and being a 20 and 10 guy the next 4 years, I think Weaver sees enough in Stewart that his preference is to get a big to split time with Stewart, rather than out right push Stewart into a 15 MPG backup role.

I think we certainly could see Hayes pushed into a 15 MPG backup role this season, but its not likely to happen to Stewart.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#288 » by pistonsbball » Tue May 17, 2022 12:41 am

I'd rather draft a rookie rim runner and sign another one cheap. Eventually we'll find a guy that has chemistry on the roll with Cade and can do some of the things Ayton offers at a fraction of the price.

I just don't want to invest time and money in Ayton who likely gets played off the floor in crucial playoff games. I still say that knowing he would make us a better regular season team straight away.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#289 » by Pharaoh » Tue May 17, 2022 12:50 am

pistonsbball wrote:I'd rather draft a rookie rim runner and sign another one cheap. Eventually we'll find a guy that has chemistry on the roll with Cade and can do some of the things Ayton offers at a fraction of the price.

I just don't want to invest time and money in Ayton who likely gets played off the floor in crucial playoff games. I still say that knowing he would make us a better regular season team straight away.
Is Jalen Smith that guy?

Or Mitch Robinson?

Someone else we've all overlooked?

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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#290 » by bstein14 » Tue May 17, 2022 1:27 am

Pharaoh wrote:
pistonsbball wrote:I'd rather draft a rookie rim runner and sign another one cheap. Eventually we'll find a guy that has chemistry on the roll with Cade and can do some of the things Ayton offers at a fraction of the price.

I just don't want to invest time and money in Ayton who likely gets played off the floor in crucial playoff games. I still say that knowing he would make us a better regular season team straight away.
Is Jalen Smith that guy?

Or Mitch Robinson?

Someone else we've all overlooked?

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I wouldn't be upset about getting this guy to split minutes with Stew. http://www.espn.com/high-school/boys-basketball/video/clip?id=32650458
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#291 » by DetroitDon15 » Tue May 17, 2022 1:38 am

Pharaoh wrote:
pistonsbball wrote:I'd rather draft a rookie rim runner and sign another one cheap. Eventually we'll find a guy that has chemistry on the roll with Cade and can do some of the things Ayton offers at a fraction of the price.

I just don't want to invest time and money in Ayton who likely gets played off the floor in crucial playoff games. I still say that knowing he would make us a better regular season team straight away.
Is Jalen Smith that guy?

Or Mitch Robinson?

Someone else we've all overlooked?

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Jabari Smith is my guy to be honest. In relation to the center position, league average is very exceptible. I like Ayton but not at the max. I’d rather roll the dice on Chet (if we get him) plus Stew. If we can get Jabari, I’d be super happy. I like Stewart, Jabari, Cade, Saddiq, and a backcourt mate for Cade (maybe trade Grant for that guy). I think the Pistons need on more lucky ball drop. Hopefully the fix is in two years in a row for us.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#292 » by tmorgan » Tue May 17, 2022 1:50 am

I’d definitely rather pay Jalen Smith half what Ayton gets if we don’t draft a big, Stew is my second favorite current Piston. He IS the kind of player Detroit loves. Just needs to develop that three, soften up his hands a little, and make people pay for underestimating him.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#293 » by GreekAlex » Tue May 17, 2022 5:27 am

Can someone explain the Ayton allure?

If he wasn’t the former #1 overall pick, would he get this kind of attention?

His impact in the game isn’t MAX worthy to me.

An old school center isn’t where I’d allocate $30+M
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#294 » by ElectricMayhem » Tue May 17, 2022 12:47 pm

My biggest fear regarding Ayton is he typically sleeps 2 hours/night. 2 HOURS! As someone who has read a lot on the topic of sleep science, this is a huge red flag.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#295 » by Manocad » Tue May 17, 2022 3:06 pm

GreekAlex wrote:Can someone explain the Ayton allure?

If he wasn’t the former #1 overall pick, would he get this kind of attention?

His impact in the game isn’t MAX worthy to me.

An old school center isn’t where I’d allocate $30+M

Old school center? Huh? Garza is an old school center. Ayton is hardly that.

I'll explain the allure--he can post up with his back to the basket. He can put the ball on the floor and bang through defenders. He can shoot a mid-range jumper. He can catch a lob and dunk putbacks. He shoots SIXTY PERCENT FROM THE FLOOR. I personally don't give a flying eff how the points are scored; give me a 7 footer who shoots 60% from the floor and I'll find a spot for him.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#296 » by MotownMadness » Tue May 17, 2022 5:24 pm

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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#297 » by GreekAlex » Tue May 17, 2022 7:11 pm

Manocad wrote:
GreekAlex wrote:Can someone explain the Ayton allure?

If he wasn’t the former #1 overall pick, would he get this kind of attention?

His impact in the game isn’t MAX worthy to me.

An old school center isn’t where I’d allocate $30+M

Old school center? Huh? Garza is an old school center. Ayton is hardly that.

I'll explain the allure--he can post up with his back to the basket. He can put the ball on the floor and bang through defenders. He can shoot a mid-range jumper. He can catch a lob and dunk putbacks. He shoots SIXTY PERCENT FROM THE FLOOR. I personally don't give a flying eff how the points are scored; give me a 7 footer who shoots 60% from the floor and I'll find a spot for him.


I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear. I see his value. I meant the allure to sign him at a max price tag.

I understand his strengths but I don’t find him to be dynamic or dominant. I don’t think he would move the needle and validate that contract.

And as far as FG %, Andre Drummond is a career 54% and last season was 57% including all his 3p antics.

I’d love Ayton but not at $30M+
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#298 » by Southern Piston » Tue May 17, 2022 7:26 pm

I think Stewart is going to better than Ayton by 24, snd probably just two seasons away from bringing it all together. Weaver chose Stewart and Bey based on there character and work ethic as well as talent. I think he wants to make this thing grow, Ayton seems like some baggage compared to our own guy.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#299 » by MotownMadness » Tue May 17, 2022 7:30 pm

I think Stewart would be great as that energy big off the bench. Imagine having a nice frontcourt plus a ball of energy like Stewart off the bench.
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Re: S&T deals for Ayton 

Post#300 » by tmorgan » Tue May 17, 2022 7:43 pm

I’m out on Ayton at 4/130. Would be a little disappointed, don’t think that’s good cap management.

If the market sours on him and it’s more like 4/110, I’m neutral. Have to think Phoenix matches that, though.

25 mil a year or cheaper and it’s a good move. But that really can’t happen, Phoenix has to match that.

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