Game 69: Pistons (18-50) @ Heat (45-24) Mar. 15 7:30 PM EST

[Cowology]

Bey. Start Livers over Bey despite Bey's incredible shooting, and also over Bey's horrendous defense.

Or start them both the rest of the way:

Cade
Livers
Bey
Grant
Stewart

Livers doesn’t have the footspeed to play the 2.

The way we switch every pick I'm not sure that matters. I'd rather be slow than small. Teams constantly isolate big/small matchups on us and it's frequently CoJo getting punished.

[Piston Pete]

Love to see us tinker with different lineups and combinations the rest of the way. And play the kids.

Really done watching CoJo/McGruder at all anymore.

I’d rather watch Watson and Pickett get those minutes, honestly.

[zeebneeb]

Or start them both the rest of the way:

Cade
Livers
Bey
Grant
Stewart

Livers doesn’t have the footspeed to play the 2.

The way we switch every pick I'm not sure that matters. I'd rather be slow than small. Teams constantly isolate big/small matchups on us and it's frequently CoJo getting punished.

This ×1000. Cleveland has run a jumbo lineup this season and has met with great success. It creates mismatch problems all over the floor, and when the opposing teams jumper isn't falling, they can't drive the lane either.

I also take umbrage with "Livers doesn't have the foot speed" as how the hell would anyone have enough data to make that declaration?

Footspeed is not the end all in defense, how you move your body is just as large a factor, as well as size. Livers is thick, and not an easy blow by.

I see no problem with starting a massive lineup, to at least see how it would look;

Cade
Livers
Grant
Bey
Bagley


Why the hell not? See how it works out. If it fails, it only draws the team closer to another assured top 5 pick.

[Homelander87]

Livers doesn’t have the footspeed to play the 2.

The way we switch every pick I'm not sure that matters. I'd rather be slow than small. Teams constantly isolate big/small matchups on us and it's frequently CoJo getting punished.

This ×1000. Cleveland has run a jumbo lineup this season and has met with great success. It creates mismatch problems all over the floor, and when the opposing teams jumper isn't falling, they can't drive the lane either.

I also take umbrage with "Livers doesn't have the foot speed" as how the hell would anyone have enough data to make that declaration?

Footspeed is not the end all in defense, how you move your body is just as large a factor, as well as size. Livers is thick, and not an easy blow by.

I see no problem with starting a massive lineup, to at least see how it would look;

Cade
Livers
Grant
Bey
Bagley


Why the hell not? See how it works out. If it fails, it only draws the team closer to another assured top 5 pick.

and people were wondering why I wanted to stick Saddiq at the 2.......In today's NBA length, floor spacing, and shooting wins. Also a big reason I want Keagan Murray who can man our 3 spot. We would have Livers, Bey, Cade, Keegan all as long wings who can all stretch the floor. I mean look at GSW when they had Durant. Klay is 6'6, Durant is 6'10, Iguodala was 6'6, Livingston was 6'7. A lot of length and versatility there. Pistons should be trying to mimic that model

[Kalamazoo317]

The value of length and versatility are reasons I am still hopeful for Killian and like keeping Grant around.

[Cowology]

I'd like Grant a lot better at SF. I can't even describe how much is 4 rpg rubs me the wrong way. Probably more than what is logical or reasonable, but it reeeaaaaallly annoys me. I just can't fathom having a PF who doesn't rebound. It's unconscionable.

It's not a skill thing; it's an effort thing.

[tmorgan]

I'd like Grant a lot better at SF. I can't even describe how much is 4 rpg rubs me the wrong way. Probably more than what is logical or reasonable, but it reeeaaaaallly annoys me. I just can't fathom having a PF who doesn't rebound. It's unconscionable.

It's not a skill thing; it's an effort thing.

It’s also a beef thing. Grant can dunk on you, but he’s not a banger. Length is great, but not at the 4 when much wider guys can lay their weight on you and you can’t even go up for a board.

He’s a small ball 4 if your center can handle the glass. If we could get one of those, fine, Grant can be a 4. Clearly Stewart isn’t enough for that, and while Bagley probably is, he’ll firebomb your P&R defense while doing so.

[Kalamazoo317]

Rebounding is a team concern. I don't care what position it comes from. Grant is a wing. If that's a 3 or a stretch 4, I don't think it really makes a difference.

[bstein14]

Rebounding is a team concern. I don't care what position it comes from. Grant is a wing. If that's a 3 or a stretch 4, I don't think it really makes a difference.

Cade and Bey are good rebounders... Diallo is a great rebounder for a SG.... if he develops a shot and earns the starting spot rebounding won't be an issue. If its someone else hopefully they are also a good rebounding SG.

[Cowology]

Rebounding is a team concern. I don't care what position it comes from. Grant is a wing. If that's a 3 or a stretch 4, I don't think it really makes a difference.

Saying it's a team problem or trying to play semantics over position is just excuse making. He should be grabbing more than 4 as a SF too. Pointing to guys like Cade & Diallo as being good for their position doesn't alleviate his personal responsibility. If anything it just further puts him to shame.

Just watch him. He doesn't even try. He literally stands there and ball watches. Doesn't even box out half the time. And yes, it does hurt us when we're one of the 3 worst rebounding teams in the league and he's tied for 30th at the PF position with Blake Griffin who plays 17 mpg on bad knees. In fact there are 12 players ahead of him who play 25mpg or less. He'd also be tied for 27th amongst SF.

Again, I'd argue it hurts us less at the SF position by virtue of the fact it potentially allows us to get a stronger rebounder in there at the 4 spot, but there is NO reason he cannot do better. None. It's a question of effort, focus & discipline; all things he's capable of controlling.

Watch on YouTube

[Kalamazoo317]

Yeah, Grant should rebound better, Hayes should shoot better, Diallo should play more under control, Bagley should play better defense ... they all have their flaws. No one is arguing that. But like you said, completely undercutting your own point that I'm arguing against, Grant should rebound better at the 3 as well. So rebounding has nothing to do with his position.

[breezypeezy]

I'm always good with going big. After this closing in on 60 loss season we've endured, I hope to retire the small ball lineups to extreme rare stretches.
I'd be good with no-one shorter than Cade on the first unit.
Ima head to the Livers thread cuz I know a lot of us are loving what were seeing from him

[Manocad]

The rebounding issues with this team are coachable IMO because the general scheme will dictate the effort made as well. You can send the whole team in to crash the boards on offense and potentially give up an easy score the other way. Or you can send the whole team in to crash the boards on defense and have far fewer fast break/open floor opportunities because the opponent is always beating you back down the floor. And while I admit I haven't spent a lot of time watching the games with a specific intent of studying the rebounding, I do know one thing--this team does NOT crash the boards on either end and likes to get out/push the offense. So it's kind of a pick your poison thing. Personally I'm old school--control the glass and you'll likely control the game, so I'd sacrifice fast break opportunities/live with opponent fast break opportunities in order to maximize chances at securing a rebound.

[Cowology]

Yeah, Grant should rebound better, Hayes should shoot better, Diallo should play more under control, Bagley should play better defense ... they all have their flaws. No one is arguing that. But like you said, completely undercutting your own point that I'm arguing against, Grant should rebound better at the 3 as well. So rebounding has nothing to do with his position.

This makes no sense at all. Rebounding has nothing to do with position? What?

[Kalamazoo317]

Yeah, Grant should rebound better, Hayes should shoot better, Diallo should play more under control, Bagley should play better defense ... they all have their flaws. No one is arguing that. But like you said, completely undercutting your own point that I'm arguing against, Grant should rebound better at the 3 as well. So rebounding has nothing to do with his position.

This makes no sense at all. Rebounding has nothing to do with position? What?

Every player, regardless of position, should be able to rebound, play man defense, and hit open shots. Grant being a bad rebounder isn't a good thing if he's a 5 and it isn't a good thing if he's a 1. But it doesn't somehow make him a better fit at 3 than 4. He's a stretch player on offense who is going to be guarding stretch players on defense, so he's going to be playing largely on the perimeter no matter what you want to label his position as.

Now if your argument is that his being in the line up means we need to get a larger bodied player and better rebounder next to him, that's fine. But I think the differences between playing or fitting at "3" or "4" are largely trivial in the modern NBA and that rebounding ability has very little to do with which place you fit in better.

I think you're trapped in an old school "Power Forward" type of thinking here that just doesn't reflect how the game is played anymore.