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factos？ im startin to believe his starter is not solid next season

Forget explosiveness and speed; that's just not who he is. He's a shooter and you pretty much just have to keep your fingers crossed with Bey. For every 9-17 night there's going to be a 4-17 night. If he can cut down on the stinkers and play something that's remotely close to average defense he'll be fine.

Bey as a 3rd/4th option will be a much better player. I truly believe in Saddiq but he needs to be surrounded with better talent to slide into the role that best suits him.

I didn't know that someone had found a time machine and took us all back to the preseason 2 years ago... nifty.

If Bey had that level of athleticism to go with his other gifts, he wouldn't be a Piston right now because he would have been a sure thing top 5 pick in his draft class.

Bey just dropped 50+ like a week or two ago, probably not the time to question his viability as a starter for us.

Was he ever believed to have a higher level of quickness and athleticism when he was coming up?

Seems like something with proper prior knowledge that one can’t be disappointed by.

Manocad wrote:Forget explosiveness and speed; that's just not who he is. He's a shooter and you pretty much just have to keep your fingers crossed with Bey. For every 9-17 night there's going to be a 4-17 night. If he can cut down on the stinkers and play something that's remotely close to average defense he'll be fine.

I've posted this before but...

Losses (55)
14.3 PPG
37.0 FG%
30.1 3pt%

Wins (20)
21.6 PPG
45.8 FG%
44.9 3pt%

He is the single most polarizing player on our roster. No other player sees such a huge disparity between W/L numbers. How he goes is typically how our team goes. Cade's numbers are virtually static across the board. Grant has some slippage, but is still serviceable.

This is perhaps the single biggest reason I have advocated so strongly for trying to get him going early in games. He's already shown us that when he's not involved or struggles early that it tends to effect him for the entire game. It's a confidence/comfort thing. And it's not just getting up shots; him jacking a couple of quick 3's is just as likely to put him off his game if they don't go in. We need to run some plays getting him moving towards the basket.

My arguments against Grant have largely stemmed from here. Grant is a guy who's demonstrated an ability to heat up at any time. He doesn't need to be babied the same way that Bey does right now. He needs to take a step back in the 1st Q, let Bey get his feet wet, and then insert himself into the offense once we've got a bit of a groove going.

Eventually Bey will have to get over that **** and figure out how to be mentally tougher, but he is still just 22 and playing his 2nd season in the league. His career is going to be dictated by whether he can eventually find that consistency. The 22-7-3 version who shoots 45%/45% is a damn good piece to put around Cade and has a long career. The bad version we've seen the other 70% of the time is a bench player with a short career because he doesn't bring anything else meaningful to the table if he's not knocking down shots.

It's early enough in his career that I'm still on board with pushing that development, but next year is going to be HUGE for him. I'm not so stubborn that I can't recognize it's a big question mark and he's definitely disappointed me the last 10-15 games. But those good games are tantalizing enough I want to give him every opportunity to figure it out before we decide to pull the plug. He has a chance to be a really good player.

This was a development year for Bey, and his early season play showed that to everyone. He started out doing things everyone was questioning "Just shoot the ball" was read a billion times here.

I'm not worried at all on offense. He's trying to expand his game, and I applaud him for that. He has shown when its all clicking he will be an amazing piece moving forward.

Now, the one thing that concerns me, is his defense, and only on certain player types. Everyone on the team can basically switch and cover, save for Joseph(height)and Bey. Bey has a sloppiness about him on defense that does concern me, but when the Pistons have a shot blocker next year(and they will in one form or another)that will mitigate that issue to a degree. Another solve for that, is putting Bey on PF duty on defense. Anyone who has some quickness, really burns Bey(which is why I mentioned the shot blocker)but he does fairly well against slower stronger players. Bagley can switch all over the damn place, so if has to gaurd a SF, that's fine.

If the Pistons stop switching every single time, the problem would help solve itself to a degree, but for some reason the modern NBA loves creating mismatches all over the damn court. It baffles me to no end, when simply staying with your man, creates a funnel effect to the rim for interior defenders. Maybe the Pistons do it so much because they lack a SB, but I've seen teams switch incessantly even when they have a SB.

Getting the right personel on the team first, will help expose where the problems are at. Right now, its tough to nail down with so many players who will not even be on the team next year, getting minutes.

I also agree that Bey will shine when he's the 3rd option on offense, sometimes 2nd on most nights. With that said, it seemed that when Grant was out(just going by memory)he played better, and was more at ease on the court, and was the second option.

zeebneeb wrote:I also agree that Bey will shine when he's the 3rd option on offense, sometimes 2nd on most nights. With that said, it seemed that when Grant was out(just going by memory)he played better, and was more at ease on the court, and was the second option.

He definitely played better when Grant was out. His 51 pts came with Grant out. In fact the team as a whole has a better W/L record when Grant is out.

With Grant: 11 W, 36 L (23%)
Without Grant: 9 W. 19 L (32%)

Granted there are other factors at play, but I don't think this should just be dismissed either. For as much as people talk about Grants ability to generate points, this really kinda illustrates the value in having a more team-centric offense that *doesn't* rely on him. It's very easy to get swept up by Grant's heroics and lose sight of the fact that his heroics might not be needed if we had a better flow to our offense.

That said, you also can't replace Grant with Bagley and then run out Stewart/Hayes with him due to the complete lack of shooting. We've got some good players, but they don't always fit well together.

Cade/CoJo/Grant/Bagley/Stewart is sorta functional. Cade/Hayes/Bey/Grant/Stewart sorta works. Cade/Livers/Bey/Bagley/Stewart is OKish. We just really need at least 3 shooters on the floor at all times.

Running out Cade/Hayes/Grant/Bagley/Stewart isn't going to work any better than any of our other non-shooting lineups. We can play Grant as his "natural" position and bump Bey, but we still need to find a way to get better spacing. Stewart is essential, which is WHY Hayes so frequently comes under fire (much to your chagrin). It wouldn't be as big of an issue if it weren't compounding an existing problem, but it becomes evident very quickly when we can't knock down outside shots.

zeebneeb wrote:This was a development year for Bey, and his early season play showed that to everyone. He started out doing things everyone was questioning "Just shoot the ball" was read a billion times here.

I'm not worried at all on offense. He's trying to expand his game, and I applaud him for that. He has shown when its all clicking he will be an amazing piece moving forward.

Now, the one thing that concerns me, is his defense, and only on certain player types. Everyone on the team can basically switch and cover, save for Joseph(height)and Bey. Bey has a sloppiness about him on defense that does concern me, but when the Pistons have a shot blocker next year(and they will in one form or another)that will mitigate that issue to a degree. Another solve for that, is putting Bey on PF duty on defense. Anyone who has some quickness, really burns Bey(which is why I mentioned the shot blocker)but he does fairly well against slower stronger players. Bagley can switch all over the damn place, so if has to gaurd a SF, that's fine.

If the Pistons stop switching every single time, the problem would help solve itself to a degree, but for some reason the modern NBA loves creating mismatches all over the damn court. It baffles me to no end, when simply staying with your man, creates a funnel effect to the rim for interior defenders. Maybe the Pistons do it so much because they lack a SB, but I've seen teams switch incessantly even when they have a SB.

Getting the right personel on the team first, will help expose where the problems are at. Right now, its tough to nail down with so many players who will not even be on the team next year, getting minutes.

I also agree that Bey will shine when he's the 3rd option on offense, sometimes 2nd on most nights. With that said, it seemed that when Grant was out(just going by memory)he played better, and was more at ease on the court, and was the second option.

defensively，exactly what I wanted to say ...after the 51，I just shut up about all of his shots

joeposh wrote:If Bey had that level of athleticism to go with his other gifts, he wouldn't be a Piston right now because he would have been a sure thing top 5 pick in his draft class.

Bey just dropped 50+ like a week or two ago, probably not the time to question his viability as a starter for us.

Charlie Villanueva scored 50 once. Just sayin'...

Bey should be a 4th option type guy a spot up shooter mostly. He shouldn't be a go get a bucket guy like what he's doing this season imo.

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zeebneeb wrote:This was a development year for Bey, and his early season play showed that to everyone. He started out doing things everyone was questioning "Just shoot the ball" was read a billion times here.

I'm not worried at all on offense. He's trying to expand his game, and I applaud him for that. He has shown when its all clicking he will be an amazing piece moving forward.

Now, the one thing that concerns me, is his defense, and only on certain player types. Everyone on the team can basically switch and cover, save for Joseph(height)and Bey. Bey has a sloppiness about him on defense that does concern me, but when the Pistons have a shot blocker next year(and they will in one form or another)that will mitigate that issue to a degree. Another solve for that, is putting Bey on PF duty on defense. Anyone who has some quickness, really burns Bey(which is why I mentioned the shot blocker)but he does fairly well against slower stronger players. Bagley can switch all over the damn place, so if has to gaurd a SF, that's fine.

If the Pistons stop switching every single time, the problem would help solve itself to a degree, but for some reason the modern NBA loves creating mismatches all over the damn court. It baffles me to no end, when simply staying with your man, creates a funnel effect to the rim for interior defenders. Maybe the Pistons do it so much because they lack a SB, but I've seen teams switch incessantly even when they have a SB.

Getting the right personel on the team first, will help expose where the problems are at. Right now, its tough to nail down with so many players who will not even be on the team next year, getting minutes.

I also agree that Bey will shine when he's the 3rd option on offense, sometimes 2nd on most nights. With that said, it seemed that when Grant was out(just going by memory)he played better, and was more at ease on the court, and was the second option.

Yeah, I hate to harp about +/- because it's a pretty simplistic view and obviously you have to score points to win an NBA game, so there's value in having a guy who can put up 20-25 on any given night but may be -5 for the game. You can overcome that with a couple of plus guys around him. It's the putting up 20 and being -15 that's going to be a problem once the Pistons have more talent as they're going to start being in a lot more close games.

mattao313 wrote:Bey should be a 4th option type guy a spot up shooter mostly. He shouldn't be a go get a bucket guy like what he's doing this season imo.

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This is the difference between trying to maximize talent and trying to develop talent.

I don't mean this just about you, but this board demonstrates a serious lack of patience for players working on expanding their games. Then complains that we are terrible at developing players!

Bagley SHOULD be shooting those open 3's. Bey SHOULD be working on driving the ball. Hayes SHOULD work on taking more open jumpers.

These might be flaws, but you don't take young players with potential and tell them "stick to your strengths"; you help identify the opportunities and then encourage them work on improving them. CoJo is the guy you tell to stay in his lane. Olynyk needs to stay in his lane. Not the 20-23 year old kids. You accept that they will struggle and that it's going to be painful going through some growing pains.

Bey might be best suited to shed 10 to 15 lbs up top to become a bit quicker if he is mostly going to be playing SF.

Cowology wrote:

mattao313 wrote:Bey should be a 4th option type guy a spot up shooter mostly. He shouldn't be a go get a bucket guy like what he's doing this season imo.

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This is the difference between trying to maximize talent and trying to develop talent.

I don't mean this just about you, but this board demonstrates a serious lack of patience for players working on expanding their games. Then complains that we are terrible at developing players!

Bagley SHOULD be shooting those open 3's. Bey SHOULD be working on driving the ball. Hayes SHOULD work on taking more open jumpers.

These might be flaws, but you don't take young players with potential and tell them "stick to your strengths"; you help identify the opportunities and then encourage them work on improving them. CoJo is the guy you tell to stay in his lane. Olynyk needs to stay in his lane. Not the 20-23 year old kids. You accept that they will struggle and that it's going to be painful going through some growing pains.

Meh I understand where you're coming from but its different ways to develop guys. We let Drummond chuck up trash jump hooks hoping he got better. He did but he was still trash at them, anyway point is it could also create bad habits like Drummond wanting to be the guy instead of playing to his strengths.

I think bey can be a elite role player or a mediocre 'scorer'. Which one do you want? I'd take the elite role player easily. I could be totally wrong tho and he turns into a star.

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Manocad wrote:

zeebneeb wrote:This was a development year for Bey, and his early season play showed that to everyone. He started out doing things everyone was questioning "Just shoot the ball" was read a billion times here.

I'm not worried at all on offense. He's trying to expand his game, and I applaud him for that. He has shown when its all clicking he will be an amazing piece moving forward.

Now, the one thing that concerns me, is his defense, and only on certain player types. Everyone on the team can basically switch and cover, save for Joseph(height)and Bey. Bey has a sloppiness about him on defense that does concern me, but when the Pistons have a shot blocker next year(and they will in one form or another)that will mitigate that issue to a degree. Another solve for that, is putting Bey on PF duty on defense. Anyone who has some quickness, really burns Bey(which is why I mentioned the shot blocker)but he does fairly well against slower stronger players. Bagley can switch all over the damn place, so if has to gaurd a SF, that's fine.

If the Pistons stop switching every single time, the problem would help solve itself to a degree, but for some reason the modern NBA loves creating mismatches all over the damn court. It baffles me to no end, when simply staying with your man, creates a funnel effect to the rim for interior defenders. Maybe the Pistons do it so much because they lack a SB, but I've seen teams switch incessantly even when they have a SB.

Getting the right personel on the team first, will help expose where the problems are at. Right now, its tough to nail down with so many players who will not even be on the team next year, getting minutes.

I also agree that Bey will shine when he's the 3rd option on offense, sometimes 2nd on most nights. With that said, it seemed that when Grant was out(just going by memory)he played better, and was more at ease on the court, and was the second option.

Yeah, I hate to harp about +/- because it's a pretty simplistic view and obviously you have to score points to win an NBA game, so there's value in having a guy who can put up 20-25 on any given night but may be -5 for the game. You can overcome that with a couple of plus guys around him. It's the putting up 20 and being -15 that's going to be a problem once the Pistons have more talent as they're going to start being in a lot more close games.

Well they can't be in more then they have, as they lead the league in close games since the all-star break. (graphic displayed during last game against the Knicks)

The Pistons have gotten lucky losing so many close games, it's unreal.(in terms of the tank)

zeebneeb wrote:

Manocad wrote:

zeebneeb wrote:This was a development year for Bey, and his early season play showed that to everyone. He started out doing things everyone was questioning "Just shoot the ball" was read a billion times here.

I'm not worried at all on offense. He's trying to expand his game, and I applaud him for that. He has shown when its all clicking he will be an amazing piece moving forward.

Now, the one thing that concerns me, is his defense, and only on certain player types. Everyone on the team can basically switch and cover, save for Joseph(height)and Bey. Bey has a sloppiness about him on defense that does concern me, but when the Pistons have a shot blocker next year(and they will in one form or another)that will mitigate that issue to a degree. Another solve for that, is putting Bey on PF duty on defense. Anyone who has some quickness, really burns Bey(which is why I mentioned the shot blocker)but he does fairly well against slower stronger players. Bagley can switch all over the damn place, so if has to gaurd a SF, that's fine.

If the Pistons stop switching every single time, the problem would help solve itself to a degree, but for some reason the modern NBA loves creating mismatches all over the damn court. It baffles me to no end, when simply staying with your man, creates a funnel effect to the rim for interior defenders. Maybe the Pistons do it so much because they lack a SB, but I've seen teams switch incessantly even when they have a SB.

Getting the right personel on the team first, will help expose where the problems are at. Right now, its tough to nail down with so many players who will not even be on the team next year, getting minutes.

I also agree that Bey will shine when he's the 3rd option on offense, sometimes 2nd on most nights. With that said, it seemed that when Grant was out(just going by memory)he played better, and was more at ease on the court, and was the second option.

Yeah, I hate to harp about +/- because it's a pretty simplistic view and obviously you have to score points to win an NBA game, so there's value in having a guy who can put up 20-25 on any given night but may be -5 for the game. You can overcome that with a couple of plus guys around him. It's the putting up 20 and being -15 that's going to be a problem once the Pistons have more talent as they're going to start being in a lot more close games.

Well they can't be in more then they have, as they lead the league in close games since the all-star break. (graphic displayed during last game against the Knicks)

The Pistons have gotten lucky losing so many close games, it's unreal.(in terms of the tank)

I didn't see the Knicks game (went to a movie instead) so I wasn't aware of the close games stats. How I guess I should have stated it is that once the Pistons reach the point where the goal and need IS to win every game if possible, those -15 efforts from Bey are going to be a real problem.

If Bey continues to have that many -15 games then I suspect most people would be on board with benching him and/or moving on.

I've been as big an advocate for Bey as anybody on this board and even I am saying that he needs to get more consistent. But I think he still has all of next season to correct that.

I think Bey has all the tools he needs to be All-Star level, he just needs to be more consistent. I think he'll get there. His improvement this year alone has been remarkable.