Keegan Murray

[El Chivo]

I have Terrence Ross vibes about Mathurin. I like him, though.

[Homelander87]

I have Terrence Ross vibes about Mathurin. I like him, though.

I don't, Ross is a decent bit bigger. Mathurin only measured 6'4.5 without shoes. I want somebody bigger and longer. Pistons need to continue to add length everywhere. Jaysom Tatum has been the biggest mismatch in these playoffs because he's 6'8 and can do it all, Pistons need a guy like that or at least guys around that size.

[Spider156]

I just watched him play again. I think he’s gonna be a great player to be honest. That’s an NBA jumpshot! He’s exactly what the modern NBA is now. I’m starting to believe that if we pickup Murray at 5 then Grant is gone by the end of the lottery picks.

[coolness]

I just watched him play again. I think he’s gonna be a great player to be honest. That’s an NBA jumpshot! He’s exactly what the modern NBA is now. I’m starting to believe that if we pickup Murray at 5 then Grant is gone by the end of the lottery picks.

For all the bs I say, I want Grant gone no matter what. I don't care that he's 28. A mix of vets and youth is cool to me, but his skillset is not the goods for us because we don't have prime Shaq or whatever. I want to get as much as possible for the guy, but in a certain way, just losing him is a plus.

[A_dub06]

The one thing that Sharpe has going for him outside of raw measurables and physical profile is his supposed ability to shoot. If his interviews and background checks are all positive, I could see his + shooting as a reason to take a chance on him in the lottery. It'll be on Weaver to figure out which player has the best mix of abilities and projected impact. I want to avoid another shooter "project" like Stanley Johnson, Killian Hayes, Hamidou Diallo, and so on.

Yep, that's what I heard a lot on scouts and from podcasts especially from Russillo who actually watches college and pro as his job. That's why I won't simply disregard him as a potential pick for us

I came away with the conclusion that he's locked in the gym and his shooting is for real, in fact it may be too real since he trusts in the jumper a little too aggressively

There's likely going to be private workouts scheduled with all of the guys like Murray, Ivey, Mathurin, and Sharpe so that'll give no real insight on who the true pick is until draft night

If the pick is Sharpe, I'm totally good with it since I am in the "believe in Troy Weaver" camp. If you're not, that's fine. But so far he's been correct/made the right moves at a much higher degree than the wrong moves. Obviously still very early though. But if he takes Sharpe, it's because he has the intel/foresight that he's going to be a stud. That's the way I look at it. Maybe some are "demanding" that he go Sharpe at 5 because #potential, but for me it would require very, very strong workout/interview whenever that is (I think the next few days from JEIII reporting). Some here are hellbent on him not being the pick, which I don't personally get. Unless they think Weaver is just awful at identifying/projecting talent.

Is Weaver really that good? Being honest here, what has he done to give the impression he deserves blind faith? Taking Cade was almost a given since he was projected number one for a while and even if he didn’t Mobley was probably 2nd which would’ve been a great pick too. Trading our future 1st albeit with protection for Stewart? I don’t think that was a good move as while I was high on him once drafted I’ve come round to the thinking all he can ever be is a decent big off the bench. Signing Grant would’ve been a great move if he traded him after the 1st 6 months seeing as high value sky rocketed but instead he’s held on. He drafted Killian (which I would’ve done too) but I’m just a fan and he’s supposed to have better knowledge than what we do. I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve being called a good gm and signings haven’t been the best such as Plumlee, Olynyk and giving players like Cojo guarantees when they don’t deserve them. I know a lot of this is nitpicking but please change my mind, it shocks me how so many have faith in him.

[A_dub06]

I agree. If this was last year, Sharpe might seem more likely. But now that you have a cornerstone in place on a rookie deal, the clock starts ticking.

If this was baseball and you didn't think Sharpe would be able to contribute for another 3 years, and won't be good until year 5, I would agree with that line of thinking. But if Sharpe is good, he'll be contributing year 2 and be good by year 3. Good defined by a 15 PPG starting player.

Now, that's just a timeline disagreement against Sharpe not fitting Cade's timeline. If you don't want Sharpe because of the uncertainty, and don't think he's going to be good ever, totally fair. But in no scenario does Sharpe's timeline not work with Cade's. Cade isn't even 21 years old LOL. If Weaver thinks Sharpe is going to be a total stud, you don't not take him because Cade will be 25 when that happens.

The chances of the Pistons being a legitimate championship contender in the next 3 years are well under 5%. So to pass on someone because he won't be a 20 PPG starter in year 2 is pretty myopic.

It has nothing to do with Cade's age. It has to do with how long he's guaranteed to us. Four seasons. He'll be halfway through his deal after this season. Don't want to make a mistake with this pick.

To play devils advocate can’t that argument be also used against Murray and for Sharpe?

Drafting a guy most likely caps out to be the 4th-5th best player on a championship team over someone that could be as high as 1 or 2 will also do damage. If we can find Cade another star I think it’s worth taking the risk, not drafting Murray who has a much lower ceiling and imo will be limited against NBA calibre players (men not boys) won’t hurt in the grand scheme of things. You don’t draft top 5 to simply find a starter…

[buzzkilloton]

Yep, that's what I heard a lot on scouts and from podcasts especially from Russillo who actually watches college and pro as his job. That's why I won't simply disregard him as a potential pick for us

I came away with the conclusion that he's locked in the gym and his shooting is for real, in fact it may be too real since he trusts in the jumper a little too aggressively

There's likely going to be private workouts scheduled with all of the guys like Murray, Ivey, Mathurin, and Sharpe so that'll give no real insight on who the true pick is until draft night

If the pick is Sharpe, I'm totally good with it since I am in the "believe in Troy Weaver" camp. If you're not, that's fine. But so far he's been correct/made the right moves at a much higher degree than the wrong moves. Obviously still very early though. But if he takes Sharpe, it's because he has the intel/foresight that he's going to be a stud. That's the way I look at it. Maybe some are "demanding" that he go Sharpe at 5 because #potential, but for me it would require very, very strong workout/interview whenever that is (I think the next few days from JEIII reporting). Some here are hellbent on him not being the pick, which I don't personally get. Unless they think Weaver is just awful at identifying/projecting talent.

Is Weaver really that good? Being honest here, what has he done to give the impression he deserves blind faith? Taking Cade was almost a given since he was projected number one for a while and even if he didn’t Mobley was probably 2nd which would’ve been a great pick too. Trading our future 1st albeit with protection for Stewart? I don’t think that was a good move as while I was high on him once drafted I’ve come round to the thinking all he can ever be is a decent big off the bench. Signing Grant would’ve been a great move if he traded him after the 1st 6 months seeing as high value sky rocketed but instead he’s held on. He drafted Killian (which I would’ve done too) but I’m just a fan and he’s supposed to have better knowledge than what we do. I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve being called a good gm and signings haven’t been the best such as Plumlee, Olynyk and giving players like Cojo guarantees when they don’t deserve them. I know a lot of this is nitpicking but please change my mind, it shocks me how so many have faith in him.

This is the offseason where we will know if Weaver knows what hes doing. This is the first time where he can massively screw up things. Even in OKC he was under Presti so he never had the keys. As long as he doesnt do what the masses on twitter want we will be ok.

Edit-I should mention hes done a good job so far. I dont blame Weaver on Killian as thats who the best prospect on the board was. I like the trades I'm always for getting more picks I actually would of went Bey and Maxey(many in draft thread wanted him) but hey I like Stewart and if that late season 3ball is legit look out.

I agree Grant was a great pickup but I also remember me and you both saying at the time hes a sell high. I know its Weavers buddy but sometimes you gotta make a move like the Clippers did with Blake on his new deal for the good of the franchise.

[Sort]

It's fine to allow conjecture in all sorts of directions. There's simply no way to know how this draft will work out. I don't buy the argument that Murray's ceiling is that low. His basketball timeline in his life is significantly behind most people. He was about my size when I was a freshmen in high school. The difference is that I'm still six feet 150 (ish now that I'm older).

I think the point that struck me about Sharpe was just how different his motor was when he was a sophomore in high school version on whatever super prep team he was on as a senior. Just playing ball in Canada got him flying all over the court. The ego-driven prep school and he's just thinking about his next highlight reel, not playing defense. With a questionable drive, it's an easy pass in terms of the fifth pick in the draft, and he's clearly listening to agents that want to maximize his contract now only. He could work out and turn into a version of Gary Trent, a solid fifth pick in the draft. Or an embarrassing one.

Conjecture either way.

[Jsindto]

Yep, that's what I heard a lot on scouts and from podcasts especially from Russillo who actually watches college and pro as his job. That's why I won't simply disregard him as a potential pick for us

I came away with the conclusion that he's locked in the gym and his shooting is for real, in fact it may be too real since he trusts in the jumper a little too aggressively

There's likely going to be private workouts scheduled with all of the guys like Murray, Ivey, Mathurin, and Sharpe so that'll give no real insight on who the true pick is until draft night

If the pick is Sharpe, I'm totally good with it since I am in the "believe in Troy Weaver" camp. If you're not, that's fine. But so far he's been correct/made the right moves at a much higher degree than the wrong moves. Obviously still very early though. But if he takes Sharpe, it's because he has the intel/foresight that he's going to be a stud. That's the way I look at it. Maybe some are "demanding" that he go Sharpe at 5 because #potential, but for me it would require very, very strong workout/interview whenever that is (I think the next few days from JEIII reporting). Some here are hellbent on him not being the pick, which I don't personally get. Unless they think Weaver is just awful at identifying/projecting talent.

Is Weaver really that good? Being honest here, what has he done to give the impression he deserves blind faith? Taking Cade was almost a given since he was projected number one for a while and even if he didn’t Mobley was probably 2nd which would’ve been a great pick too. Trading our future 1st albeit with protection for Stewart? I don’t think that was a good move as while I was high on him once drafted I’ve come round to the thinking all he can ever be is a decent big off the bench. Signing Grant would’ve been a great move if he traded him after the 1st 6 months seeing as high value sky rocketed but instead he’s held on. He drafted Killian (which I would’ve done too) but I’m just a fan and he’s supposed to have better knowledge than what we do. I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve being called a good gm and signings haven’t been the best such as Plumlee, Olynyk and giving players like Cojo guarantees when they don’t deserve them. I know a lot of this is nitpicking but please change my mind, it shocks me how so many have faith in him.

It's less about what awesome thing he's done, and more about his very high percentage of okay to very good things he's done. Compared to the very few bad things. Bruce Brown and Killian so far are the only two things I'd objectively call "bad" as of now. Brown in ink, Killian in pencil and to be either erased or written over in ink this season. But everything else has been degrees of okay, pretty good, good, very good, and great. Considering how bad many GMs are, he's done a stellar job.

Now, this is probably the first off-season where things get real tough. Breaking down a team is much easier than building it up (although he did a masterful job in breaking it down). I'm not someone who critiques every move of every GM in the moment unless they've given me reason to be very unsure on their past moves.

There isn't a single GM in all of sports who bats 1.000. So I don't get too worked up over Hayes and Brown, since in the larger picture he's been so good. Make some more bad moves that are no longer heavily outweighed by okay to very good/great moves? I'd be in the camp of questioning moves as well.

For example, if he goes Murray, Sharpe goes right after, and Murray is a borderline top 100 NBA player but Sharpe is a top 20 NBA player, that's a big F up. But if he hits on everything else and they're championship contenders, it's fine. If he doesn't hit on everything else and they're a first round and out type of team, he will no longer get the same rope and probably would eventually be on the hot seat.

[DetroitDon15]

It’s not an exciting pick but could be a logical one.

I’d be okay with it as long as we don’t also re-up Grant.

I’d prefer Ivey over Murray. I also agree that Murray isn’t the pick if Grant is still here.

[Snakebites]

It’s not an exciting pick but could be a logical one.

I’d be okay with it as long as we don’t also re-up Grant.

I’d prefer Ivey over Murray. I also agree that Murray isn’t the pick if Grant is still here.

I'd like Ivey, but I don't really view this as a choice between the two of them. Ivey will be picked before 5 IMO. Either one of the top 3 will reach on him or the Kings will take him.

[A_dub06]

If the pick is Sharpe, I'm totally good with it since I am in the "believe in Troy Weaver" camp. If you're not, that's fine. But so far he's been correct/made the right moves at a much higher degree than the wrong moves. Obviously still very early though. But if he takes Sharpe, it's because he has the intel/foresight that he's going to be a stud. That's the way I look at it. Maybe some are "demanding" that he go Sharpe at 5 because #potential, but for me it would require very, very strong workout/interview whenever that is (I think the next few days from JEIII reporting). Some here are hellbent on him not being the pick, which I don't personally get. Unless they think Weaver is just awful at identifying/projecting talent.

Is Weaver really that good? Being honest here, what has he done to give the impression he deserves blind faith? Taking Cade was almost a given since he was projected number one for a while and even if he didn’t Mobley was probably 2nd which would’ve been a great pick too. Trading our future 1st albeit with protection for Stewart? I don’t think that was a good move as while I was high on him once drafted I’ve come round to the thinking all he can ever be is a decent big off the bench. Signing Grant would’ve been a great move if he traded him after the 1st 6 months seeing as high value sky rocketed but instead he’s held on. He drafted Killian (which I would’ve done too) but I’m just a fan and he’s supposed to have better knowledge than what we do. I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve being called a good gm and signings haven’t been the best such as Plumlee, Olynyk and giving players like Cojo guarantees when they don’t deserve them. I know a lot of this is nitpicking but please change my mind, it shocks me how so many have faith in him.

It's less about what awesome thing he's done, and more about his very high percentage of okay to very good things he's done. Compared to the very few bad things. Bruce Brown and Killian so far are the only two things I'd objectively call "bad" as of now. Brown in ink, Killian in pencil and to be either erased or written over in ink this season. But everything else has been degrees of okay, pretty good, good, very good, and great. Considering how bad many GMs are, he's done a stellar job.

Now, this is probably the first off-season where things get real tough. Breaking down a team is much easier than building it up (although he did a masterful job in breaking it down). I'm not someone who critiques every move of every GM in the moment unless they've given me reason to be very unsure on their past moves.

There isn't a single GM in all of sports who bats 1.000. So I don't get too worked up over Hayes and Brown, since in the larger picture he's been so good. Make some more bad moves that are no longer heavily outweighed by okay to very good/great moves? I'd be in the camp of questioning moves as well.

For example, if he goes Murray, Sharpe goes right after, and Murray is a borderline top 100 NBA player but Sharpe is a top 20 NBA player, that's a big F up. But if he hits on everything else and they're championship contenders, it's fine. If he doesn't hit on everything else and they're a first round and out type of team, he will no longer get the same rope and probably would eventually be on the hot seat.

Maybe I’m being overly critical but I disagree that it’s not about the awesome things he’s done, I think it is. If you take picking Cade out of the equation since every team would’ve done so anyway I think what’s left ranges from below average to slightly above average, but falling in below average area. When he’s used cap space it’s been used poorly. What happened when he had a truck load of it? More stop gap overpaid role players that require compensation to dump when they don’t work out?

The more I go over this in my head I’m definitely nitpicking since we are hasn’t had a long tenure, but I’ve definitely disliked almost all of his moves and don’t trust him with cap space.

Time will tell I guess…

[Kalamazoo317]

I would agree that Weaver is an average GM so far, but just being competent as a GM goes a long way in this league.

[Southern Piston]

I think he’s probably in the top end on evaluating talent. I think his use of cap space is not the best. KO was not that bad of a signing, we just didn’t really see him too much, he’ll be better this year if healthy, whrerever he is. Plumlee helped that first season but it was not the best deal.
I always wanted this type of rebuild, a bunch first round picks growing together, by ripping apart the Bruce Brown/Lenard era he allowed that to happen and let these guys grow.
His best asset I think is gonna be finding long roatation to top 4 rotation players late in drafts. Loading on those types of players on cheap contracts with the occasional boom, is a commodity for a small market, also allows for opportunities to draft, build value, and trade away for picks type scenario. But I think we got to be at least a .500 team for those players to actually gain any value. But this is definitely the best we’ve had since Tom Hammond was giving Dumars advice.

[FloridaMan78]

I would agree that Weaver is an average GM so far, but just being competent as a GM goes a long way in this league.

Agreed. Although Weaver’s made some mistakes they haven’t been that major. Passing on Halliburton probably the biggest one, but he got Bey, who I’m pretty high on giving draft position. At the time, most had Killian higher than Haliburton.

I guess that makes him an average GM, maybe?
I see Murray as the safer pick. What an average GM would pick.

It’ll be interesting if he goes Sharpe though. It’ll be fun if he does.

I think if he goes Murray it’ll be more due to trades he’s going to make and more due to long run fit.

[Drwho17]

I think Weaver is a better GM thus far than people are giving him credit for, he took a team that was capped out, mediocre and missing the playoffs, with little youth and basically no future, and in 2 years turned it into an up and coming team with assets and the most cap space in the league, he turned the whole team over in a year. He may just be good at this part, we need to see what happens when they start winning and see if it can be sustained, but for what he was given he has been great.

[MotownMadness]

I think Weaver is a better GM thus far than people are giving him credit for, he took a team that was capped out, mediocre and missing the playoffs, with little youth and basically no future, and in 2 years turned it into an up and coming team with assets and the most cap space in the league, he turned the whole team over in a year. He may just be good at this part, we need to see what happens when they start winning and see if it can be sustained, but for what he was given he has been great.

Yeah i like where he has us. I'll leave it to everyone else to argue over what he did to get us here but im happy.

He did completely gut the team and bring in a potential franchise Star out of the draft within a matter of a couple seasons.

[Jsindto]

Is Weaver really that good? Being honest here, what has he done to give the impression he deserves blind faith? Taking Cade was almost a given since he was projected number one for a while and even if he didn’t Mobley was probably 2nd which would’ve been a great pick too. Trading our future 1st albeit with protection for Stewart? I don’t think that was a good move as while I was high on him once drafted I’ve come round to the thinking all he can ever be is a decent big off the bench. Signing Grant would’ve been a great move if he traded him after the 1st 6 months seeing as high value sky rocketed but instead he’s held on. He drafted Killian (which I would’ve done too) but I’m just a fan and he’s supposed to have better knowledge than what we do. I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve being called a good gm and signings haven’t been the best such as Plumlee, Olynyk and giving players like Cojo guarantees when they don’t deserve them. I know a lot of this is nitpicking but please change my mind, it shocks me how so many have faith in him.

It's less about what awesome thing he's done, and more about his very high percentage of okay to very good things he's done. Compared to the very few bad things. Bruce Brown and Killian so far are the only two things I'd objectively call "bad" as of now. Brown in ink, Killian in pencil and to be either erased or written over in ink this season. But everything else has been degrees of okay, pretty good, good, very good, and great. Considering how bad many GMs are, he's done a stellar job.

Now, this is probably the first off-season where things get real tough. Breaking down a team is much easier than building it up (although he did a masterful job in breaking it down). I'm not someone who critiques every move of every GM in the moment unless they've given me reason to be very unsure on their past moves.

There isn't a single GM in all of sports who bats 1.000. So I don't get too worked up over Hayes and Brown, since in the larger picture he's been so good. Make some more bad moves that are no longer heavily outweighed by okay to very good/great moves? I'd be in the camp of questioning moves as well.

For example, if he goes Murray, Sharpe goes right after, and Murray is a borderline top 100 NBA player but Sharpe is a top 20 NBA player, that's a big F up. But if he hits on everything else and they're championship contenders, it's fine. If he doesn't hit on everything else and they're a first round and out type of team, he will no longer get the same rope and probably would eventually be on the hot seat.

Maybe I’m being overly critical but I disagree that it’s not about the awesome things he’s done, I think it is. If you take picking Cade out of the equation since every team would’ve done so anyway I think what’s left ranges from below average to slightly above average, but falling in below average area. When he’s used cap space it’s been used poorly. What happened when he had a truck load of it? More stop gap overpaid role players that require compensation to dump when they don’t work out?

The more I go over this in my head I’m definitely nitpicking since we are hasn’t had a long tenure, but I’ve definitely disliked almost all of his moves and don’t trust him with cap space.

Time will tell I guess…

I'm not entirely sure how he has used cap space poorly, unless you actually wanted to expedite the rebuild more quickly than it should have been. He took over a team completely capped out, gutted it, and lined up deals that are either rookie deals or deals that are team options this offseason/off the books next offseason. I guess what you see as him overpaying on role players because you wanted to win 5 more games to be the 7th worst team in basketball, I view it as smart team building while in a rebuild. Why the hell would I want to sign a guy to a big long term deal when this team is so young and being rebuilt from the ground up? That would make absolutely no sense. There's a real argument that it shouldn't even start until NEXT offseason, let alone LAST offseason. Ayton is a unique case where it's hard to pass up that level of player at that age, so even if maybe slightly early, I'd do it if fairly easy to get a deal done.

The argument is definitely way more so "he hasn't had a chance to prove himself yet" than "he has proven himself to be average." Because he's been pretty damn masterful in what he's attempted to do so far. Which is be young, suck, and clean your books so well that you went from capped out to having 100M in cap space 3 years later.

[Crymson]

unless we somehow make a trade to move up and grab chet, i'm pretty much dead-set on murray at this point. day one i think his shooting and energy plays will translate and he'll develop his on-ball scoring skills later (kind of like saddiq).

Saddiq still doesn't really have on-ball scoring skills, and he may never develop them such that he's a reliable creator of any stripe. The same may be true of Murray, and it would be far from ideal for the Pistons to be fielding two relatively unathletic forwards who occupy much the same niche and both can't reliably create on volume.

i don't think his ceiling is as low as advertised, either. he has great finishing touch, handles contact well (often initiating it) and his jump shot is very versatile. his form is great, he doesn't jump high so it's easy for him to get his shot off quick and stay balanced, but he also has a high release which helps him get it off. he shot well off the move in college so he's not just a stand-in-the-corner spot up shooter. when he works on his ball handling i think it could unlock a lot of new ways for him to get his shot off (especially mid range).

All of which equip him well to be a role player, but should the Pistons really be looking for role players right now? Murray's major knock right now--aside from that, where the Pistons are concerned, he'd add another meh NBA athlete to a starting lineup which projects to already have two below-average NBA athletes--is that he lacks the tools to create offense in the NBA. The lion's share of his halfcourt creation in the NCAA came on one-on-one postups and faceups from the block. That's deeply unlikely to translate to the NBA, where hardly anyone can make that form of offense worthwhile on any sort of significant volume.

Murray isn't a shot creator, and very, very few players in the NBA can make pullup jumpshots an efficient form of offense in any case. And he struggled terribly last season at penetrating to the rim on the drive. His combination of bad first step on the ball, poor agility with the ball, and a markedly shaky handle made him almost invariably unable to get past even the average NCAA defender. If those shortcomings persist into his time in the NBA (and I think it would be unusual if they did not), then attacking off the dribble is unlikely to be much of an option for him. Barring the very unlikely event that he becomes a viable off-the-dribble shooter, that scenario would pretty much wipe out his capacity as a halfcourt creator, and that leaves aside the opportunity cost of fielding a guy who struggles to penetrate.

Add in the fact that his relatively poor defensive footspeed may lead him to trouble in defending fast NBA guards, and I just don't see it. As things currently stand, I don't see that he's got the capacity to be a particularly notable contributor on either end.

[buzzkilloton]

u.

All of which equip him well to be a role player, but should the Pistons really be looking for role players right now? Murray's major knock right now--aside that, where the Pistons are concerned, he'd add another meh NBA athlete to a starting lineup which projects .

Agree with you completely.

The problem I feel is after Ivey and Sharpe the star potential drops off alot. If Weaver doesnt take Sharpe its one of three likely role players were choosing from in Mathurin,Daniels,and Murray. For me Murray is the bottom of the 3 and I'm going Daniels as the most interesting if he can get that shot down.

What is your big board looking like for the draft?