Ayton and ...

[pollack419]

We have some time to kill before Draft and FA to start so l'm wondering who is our best front court line up is if we get Ayton

1) Ayton, Grant, Bey

2) Ayton, Stew, Bey

3) Ayton, Murry, Bey

4) Ayton, Bagely, Bey

[Manocad]

Putting all the "well, the only way we'd have that combination is if..." and "you'd have to have blah blah blah if you're going with this front court" stuff aside and just looking at it from which three players would be most productive considering both offense and defense, I'd go with #1. They're all established players; keep Ayton in the paint and both Bey and Grant can shoot from outside or put the ball on the floor.

#2 clogs the paint
#3 includes a rookie; no telling how good he'll be
#4 Bagley isn't better than Grant

[Jsindto]

We have some time to kill before Draft and FA to start so l'm wondering who is our best front court line up is if we get Ayton

1) Ayton, Grant, Bey

2) Ayton, Stew, Bey

3) Ayton, Murry, Bey

4) Ayton, Bagely, Bey

I know #1 is an option, but I'm personally going to remove that from my own list since I think you have to give him up to acquire Ayton. Would love to be wrong, but that's what I'm operating under. So I would have Ayton/Stew/Bey IF Stew's three ball is real and not a mirage. If it isn't real though, then #3 by a mile. I have #4 as dead last. Like Bagley on the team, but coming off the bench.

If Stewart's 3 pt shot is real though, I'd have him play ~10-15 min at the PF, and then every minute as the backup C. So 25-30 minutes per game. If his 3 pt shot isn't real, he'll unfortunately just be a very good backup C playing 15 minutes a game. Would be a bummer for sure.

To highlight his end of season production, he finally started to try taking threes again in March/April. Now, we're talking really small sample size, even after increased attempts. But through 18 games in that stretch, he was 11/21. If he's able to be at ~35% on 3-4 attempts per game, I think he can play with Ayton. Defensively they would be a nightmare, and a great tandem on that end IMO. But obviously if Stewart is a ~25% 3 pt shooter on volume, they can't play at the same time.

[Jsindto]

Putting all the "well, the only way we'd have that combination is if..." and "you'd have to have blah blah blah if you're going with this front court" stuff aside and just looking at it from which three players would be most productive considering both offense and defense, I'd go with #1. They're all established players; keep Ayton in the paint and both Bey and Grant can shoot from outside or put the ball on the floor.

#2 clogs the paint
#3 includes a rookie; no telling how good he'll be
#4 Bagley isn't better than Grant

Definitely agree with you on #2. Stewart's 3 pt shot will have to be real for that to work. Which for everyone's case, let's hope it is

[ducler]

What about #5: Stew, Wembanyama and Bey?

[King Bugs]

We have some time to kill before Draft and FA to start so l'm wondering who is our best front court line up is if we get Ayton

1) Ayton, Grant, Bey

2) Ayton, Stew, Bey

3) Ayton, Murry, Bey

4) Ayton, Bagely, Bey

1) Unfortunately, this is the best in terms of players, fit and talent. I say unfortunately because it's the least realistic. I don't see a scenario where we sign and trade for Ayton and Jerami isn't wearing purple and orange next season.

2) I hate it, the paint is too clogged. If we're looking for scrappiness and toughness, probably the best we can do. But honestly, we would ditch this starting lineup after 15 games for better spacing.

3) If Murray is Tobias Harris-lite (or anything near it) like he's billed as, then this could potentially be the best lineup out of what's left. If he struggles or looks overwhelmed by the pace of the NBA, it could be the worst.

4) If Bagley could give us even a smidgen of average defense awareness and a semi-consistent 3 pointer, or if Bey was a lockdown or even above average defender, you could get away with that lineup. But since they're none of those things, I don't think you can play them together. I mean we could, but we would abandon this front court 20-25 games into the season.

[Cowology]

Ayton/Grant/Murray or Ayton/Bagley/Grant. Either way I'm benching Bey. IF we included Grant in the S&T then I'd probably roll with Ayton/Bagley/Murray and still bench Bey. He can still get his minutes, but he needs to improve his defense and become more consistent offensively. He's the weakest link at the moment.

[Manocad]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[zeebneeb]

Putting all the "well, the only way we'd have that combination is if..." and "you'd have to have blah blah blah if you're going with this front court" stuff aside and just looking at it from which three players would be most productive considering both offense and defense, I'd go with #1. They're all established players; keep Ayton in the paint and both Bey and Grant can shoot from outside or put the ball on the floor.

#2 clogs the paint
#3 includes a rookie; no telling how good he'll be
#4 Bagley isn't better than Grant

Bagley doesn't have to be better then Grant, as he fits much, much better with Cade then Grant does, so in that context, yeah, he is better then Grant.

[Manocad]

Putting all the "well, the only way we'd have that combination is if..." and "you'd have to have blah blah blah if you're going with this front court" stuff aside and just looking at it from which three players would be most productive considering both offense and defense, I'd go with #1. They're all established players; keep Ayton in the paint and both Bey and Grant can shoot from outside or put the ball on the floor.

#2 clogs the paint
#3 includes a rookie; no telling how good he'll be
#4 Bagley isn't better than Grant

Bagley doesn't have to be better then Grant, as he fits much, much better with Cade then Grant does, so in that context, yeah, he is better then Grant.

Having Bagley and Ayton on the floor at the same time is somewhat redundant. And I'm not buying that "Grant doesn't fit with Cade" argument anymore. There were games where it was clearly demonstrated that Grant and Cade fit together fine. The only issue was with Grant playing to fit and he showed that if he did things worked fine.

[Pharaoh]

Putting all the "well, the only way we'd have that combination is if..." and "you'd have to have blah blah blah if you're going with this front court" stuff aside and just looking at it from which three players would be most productive considering both offense and defense, I'd go with #1. They're all established players; keep Ayton in the paint and both Bey and Grant can shoot from outside or put the ball on the floor.

#2 clogs the paint
#3 includes a rookie; no telling how good he'll be
#4 Bagley isn't better than Grant

Bagley doesn't have to be better then Grant, as he fits much, much better with Cade then Grant does, so in that context, yeah, he is better then Grant.

Having Bagley and Ayton on the floor at the same time is somewhat redundant. And I'm not buying that "Grant doesn't fit with Cade" argument anymore. There were games where it was clearly demonstrated that Grant and Cade fit together fine. The only issue was with Grant playing to fit and he showed that if he did things worked fine.

Think the issue with "fit" with Cade and Grant is our offense.

Cade - even as a rookie - found ways to create open shots and get guys the ball where they needed it.

For whatever reason Grant chose - often - to isolate and hold the ball, hesitate, then go one on one.

Just shoot it ffs!

Is that Grant being a bad fit or our system being iso heavy?

I honestly believe that a motion based system with Cade, Grant & Bey as the top 3 options is a far better way to go than us relying on isolations

I do get that it's easier to coach and institute a iso heavy system

BUT!

A motion based system fits our personel far better IMO

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[DetroitSho]

Bagley doesn't have to be better then Grant, as he fits much, much better with Cade then Grant does, so in that context, yeah, he is better then Grant.

Having Bagley and Ayton on the floor at the same time is somewhat redundant. And I'm not buying that "Grant doesn't fit with Cade" argument anymore. There were games where it was clearly demonstrated that Grant and Cade fit together fine. The only issue was with Grant playing to fit and he showed that if he did things worked fine.

Think the issue with "fit" with Cade and Grant is our offense.

Cade - even as a rookie - found ways to create open shots and get guys the ball where they needed it.

For whatever reason Grant chose - often - to isolate and hold the ball, hesitate, then go one on one.

Just shoot it ffs!

Is that Grant being a bad fit or our system being iso heavy?

I honestly believe that a motion based system with Cade, Grant & Bey as the top 3 options is a far better way to go than us relying on isolations

I do get that it's easier to coach and institute a iso heavy system

BUT!

A motion based system fits our personel far better IMO

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

Here's where I disagree. With Bey, he's like Antoine Walker, if he has at least 2 inches of space on the kickout, he's firing the shot up. Grant doesn't do that.

I think there's a narrative that Grant turned down a bunch of good wide open shots in favor of the iso. I remember Iverson doing that when he was here and it drove me crazy. I think we see Bey knock down alot of quick release hurried shots and then see Grant's more methodical approach and think what he's doing is wrong.

Again, unless people are looking to take the Dallas Luka approach circa 2018-2020 where it's just a bunch of catch and shoot guys around him that hold the ball for no more than 1 second and 2 dribbles, then ok. But 2021-22 what happened when Brunson emerged? When Dinwiddie arrived? 2 guys that take up large chunks of possessions probing defenses and going iso themselves? They got further than ever and they're better than they've been since Luka arrived.

It may not be Grant, but SOMEBODY needs to and WILL be on the court with Cade with iso ability before this team is able to be at it's best. So just prepare your eyes for it.

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[Laimbeer]

Ayton can't play with Stew or Bagley. Getting Ayton and signing Bagley for anything but peanuts would be really dumb.

[Manocad]

Ayton can't play with Stew or Bagley. Getting Ayton and signing Bagley for anything but peanuts would be really dumb.

I believe the assumption by most would be that Bagley stays on the bench, not start, as would Stew.

[mattao313]

Having Bagley and Ayton on the floor at the same time is somewhat redundant. And I'm not buying that "Grant doesn't fit with Cade" argument anymore. There were games where it was clearly demonstrated that Grant and Cade fit together fine. The only issue was with Grant playing to fit and he showed that if he did things worked fine.

Think the issue with "fit" with Cade and Grant is our offense.

Cade - even as a rookie - found ways to create open shots and get guys the ball where they needed it.

For whatever reason Grant chose - often - to isolate and hold the ball, hesitate, then go one on one.

Just shoot it ffs!

Is that Grant being a bad fit or our system being iso heavy?

I honestly believe that a motion based system with Cade, Grant & Bey as the top 3 options is a far better way to go than us relying on isolations

I do get that it's easier to coach and institute a iso heavy system

BUT!

A motion based system fits our personel far better IMO

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

Here's where I disagree. With Bey, he's like Antoine Walker, if he has at least 2 inches of space on the kickout, he's firing the shot up. Grant doesn't do that.

I think there's a narrative that Grant turned down a bunch of good wide open shots in favor of the iso. I remember Iverson doing that when he was here and it drove me crazy. I think we see Bey knock down alot of quick release hurried shots and then see Grant's more methodical approach and think what he's doing is wrong.

Again, unless people are looking to take the Dallas Luka approach circa 2018-2020 where it's just a bunch of catch and shoot guys around him that hold the ball for no more than 1 second and 2 dribbles, then ok. But 2021-22 what happened when Brunson emerged? When Dinwiddie arrived? 2 guys that take up large chunks of possessions probing defenses and going iso themselves? They got further than ever and they're better than they've been since Luka arrived.

It may not be Grant, but SOMEBODY needs to and WILL be on the court with Cade with iso ability before this team is able to be at it's best. So just prepare your eyes for it.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

But that's the problem with grant pure iso players aren't that valuable, playmakers guys that can create for themselves and others is valuable. Grant is a dribble hold the ball create for himself player. He'd be more valuable playing as a role player 3 and d guy with an occasional dribble pull up or drive. Grant getting his as a large part of your offense is a negative.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

[Manocad]

Think the issue with "fit" with Cade and Grant is our offense.

Cade - even as a rookie - found ways to create open shots and get guys the ball where they needed it.

For whatever reason Grant chose - often - to isolate and hold the ball, hesitate, then go one on one.

Just shoot it ffs!

Is that Grant being a bad fit or our system being iso heavy?

I honestly believe that a motion based system with Cade, Grant & Bey as the top 3 options is a far better way to go than us relying on isolations

I do get that it's easier to coach and institute a iso heavy system

BUT!

A motion based system fits our personel far better IMO

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

Here's where I disagree. With Bey, he's like Antoine Walker, if he has at least 2 inches of space on the kickout, he's firing the shot up. Grant doesn't do that.

I think there's a narrative that Grant turned down a bunch of good wide open shots in favor of the iso. I remember Iverson doing that when he was here and it drove me crazy. I think we see Bey knock down alot of quick release hurried shots and then see Grant's more methodical approach and think what he's doing is wrong.

Again, unless people are looking to take the Dallas Luka approach circa 2018-2020 where it's just a bunch of catch and shoot guys around him that hold the ball for no more than 1 second and 2 dribbles, then ok. But 2021-22 what happened when Brunson emerged? When Dinwiddie arrived? 2 guys that take up large chunks of possessions probing defenses and going iso themselves? They got further than ever and they're better than they've been since Luka arrived.

It may not be Grant, but SOMEBODY needs to and WILL be on the court with Cade with iso ability before this team is able to be at it's best. So just prepare your eyes for it.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

But that's the problem with grant pure iso players aren't that valuable, playmakers guys that can create for themselves and others is valuable. Grant is a dribble hold the ball create for himself player. He'd be more valuable playing as a role player 3 and d guy with an occasional dribble pull up or drive. Grant getting his as a large part of your offense is a negative.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

Grant is not a pure iso player; he played that way before Cade came along because the team needed him to. He clearly showed in a number of games last season that he absolutely has the ability to take what's given him, be that an open shot or a drive, and pass/kick back out if there's nothing there. He's had part of one season playing with Cade, and in some of those games it worked really well. He just needs to play that way all the time often.

Some of you guys act like NBA players have no ability to adapt their game or style of play.

[BadMofoPimp]

If Pistons draft Murray and keep Grant and Bey, then you have 3 Forwards that can interchange depending on lineups. That could be quite potent. Won't matter too much who starts as that will be determined through trial and error.

[mattao313]

Here's where I disagree. With Bey, he's like Antoine Walker, if he has at least 2 inches of space on the kickout, he's firing the shot up. Grant doesn't do that.

I think there's a narrative that Grant turned down a bunch of good wide open shots in favor of the iso. I remember Iverson doing that when he was here and it drove me crazy. I think we see Bey knock down alot of quick release hurried shots and then see Grant's more methodical approach and think what he's doing is wrong.

Again, unless people are looking to take the Dallas Luka approach circa 2018-2020 where it's just a bunch of catch and shoot guys around him that hold the ball for no more than 1 second and 2 dribbles, then ok. But 2021-22 what happened when Brunson emerged? When Dinwiddie arrived? 2 guys that take up large chunks of possessions probing defenses and going iso themselves? They got further than ever and they're better than they've been since Luka arrived.

It may not be Grant, but SOMEBODY needs to and WILL be on the court with Cade with iso ability before this team is able to be at it's best. So just prepare your eyes for it.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

But that's the problem with grant pure iso players aren't that valuable, playmakers guys that can create for themselves and others is valuable. Grant is a dribble hold the ball create for himself player. He'd be more valuable playing as a role player 3 and d guy with an occasional dribble pull up or drive. Grant getting his as a large part of your offense is a negative.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

Grant is not a pure iso player; he played that way before Cade came along because the team needed him to. He clearly showed in a number of games last season that he absolutely has the ability to take what's given him, be that an open shot or a drive, and pass/kick back out if there's nothing there. He's had part of one season playing with Cade, and in some of those games it worked really well. He just needs to play that way all the time often.

Some of you guys act like NBA players have no ability to adapt their game or style of play.

Grant is a low assist guy with a high usage he is definitely not a playmaker or passer by any means

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

[Manocad]

But that's the problem with grant pure iso players aren't that valuable, playmakers guys that can create for themselves and others is valuable. Grant is a dribble hold the ball create for himself player. He'd be more valuable playing as a role player 3 and d guy with an occasional dribble pull up or drive. Grant getting his as a large part of your offense is a negative.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

Grant is not a pure iso player; he played that way before Cade came along because the team needed him to. He clearly showed in a number of games last season that he absolutely has the ability to take what's given him, be that an open shot or a drive, and pass/kick back out if there's nothing there. He's had part of one season playing with Cade, and in some of those games it worked really well. He just needs to play that way all the time often.

Some of you guys act like NBA players have no ability to adapt their game or style of play.

Grant is a low assist guy with a high usage he is definitely not a playmaker or passer by any means

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

Low assist compared to whom? His 2.4 APG vs Cade's 5.6 APG, highest on the team? Bey is at 2.8, Hayes is at 4.2, and Cojo is at 3.6. Ain't nobody on this team racking up assists so Grant's assists are right in line with what you'd expect relatively speaking (because the team can't hit open shots at a good rate) given he's a forward. And he has a lower usage rate and higher efficiency than Cade soooo...yeah.

[Cowology]

There were times when Grants ability to go get a bucket was needed, but overall the ball moves much better when he isn't on the floor. He's a solid 2-way player, but I'll be happy to see him go.