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I’m assuming Stewart is starting so who get the backup minutes Duren or Noel

I also don’t see Stewart playing more then 30 minutes a night and most nights he’s gonna have foul trouble

this all depends on how duren does in training camp but given how raw he is i wouldn't be surprised at all if noel was the backup to start the season, then duren took over part way through the year as he gets more experience.

we have noel, duren, bagley and olynyk that can all give minutes at backup center so i have a feeling we'll see a ton of different lineups this season. i expect noel will be the most likely of the 4 to be out of the rotation once duren is settled in.

You figure Cade, Saddiq, Isaiah, and hopefully Jaden are starting from the start. So it’ll depend completely on matchup unless someone out of Duren, Noel etc really prove they are the 5th starter.

I honestly think duren gets the backup role Noel is only there for foul trouble.

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chrbal wrote:You figure Cade, Saddiq, Isaiah, and hopefully Jaden are starting from the start. So it’ll depend completely on matchup unless someone out of Duren, Noel etc really prove they are the 5th starter.

High draft picks almost always start on terrible teams. If they don't, they have bad coaching/management, and they run the risk of the player holding a grudge.

Starting lineup I am certain of

Cade
Ivey
Bey
Stewart


One spot is up for grabs, but if I'm a betting man, its Bagley.

My gut reaction is to wanna laugh at the stupid question because obviously Duren is going to be a stud and Noel is a bust that isn't part of our future plans.

But honestly...I kinda think we're going to bring Duren along slowly. At least to start the season. We might see more of an open competition which is probably better for the 18 yr old big man. And I think we're going to try and be competitive early on. Maybe that changes and we go into tank mode later in the season, but we're not starting day 1 with Duren/Ivey as featured players. They wanna start seeing some W's.

For whatever it's worth I think Cade/Bey/Bagley/Stewart start day 1. I could honestly see any number of people starting next to cade; Hayes, Ivey or Burks just depending on how training camp goes. Did Hayes learn to shoot? Is Ivey ready? Or is Burks the new CoJo? *shrug* No clue yet.

Regardless, having bigman depth is usually not a bad thing. Between injuries & foul trouble there are typically plenty of minutes (and opportunities) to go around.

All that said, if Duren comes outa the gates all gangbusters then maybe you'd be stupid not to play him. I just think that might be expecting a bit too much this early on.

zeebneeb wrote:

chrbal wrote:You figure Cade, Saddiq, Isaiah, and hopefully Jaden are starting from the start. So it’ll depend completely on matchup unless someone out of Duren, Noel etc really prove they are the 5th starter.

High draft picks almost always start on terrible teams. If they don't, they have bad coaching/management, and they run the risk of the player holding a grudge.

Starting lineup I am certain of

Cade
Ivey
Bey
Stewart


One spot is up for grabs, but if I'm a betting man, its Bagley.

I would guess Bagley as well, but we’ve used Wright and Joseph as starters. Partly out of necessity, but also seems like Casey isn’t opposed to having a veteran starter. Not saying it should happen, I just wouldn’t be surprised to see it.

We could start KO and Stewart and backup could be Bagley/Duren or Noel.

We could start Burks at the 3 Bey at the 4 and Stewart at the 5, then KO and Bagley would be our 4/5 backups.

We could start Bey at the 3 and Livers at the 4 and Stewart at the 5 with KO and Bagley as 4/5 backups

We could start Bagley/Stewart at the 4/5 (very unlikely imo) with Diallo as a backup 3, Livers as a backup 4 and KO as a backup 5.

My point is, we have a lot of possibilities, and we'll likely try all of them (even start Duren at the 5 later in the season), we are clearly not trying to win, we're trying to figure out what we have for next year.

I like
Cade
Ivey
Bey
Bagley
Stewart
Until Duren is ready to assume his role as Stewart's upgrade.

Killian
Burkes
Livers/Diallo
KO/Knox
Stewart/Noels

Something like that, should be very fluid with several able to slide between 2-3 slots really.

Seems like Noels and Killian about the only 2 in rotation that are bound to only one position.

I've gone through all the possible iterations and none of the obvious ones have the three important elements we need: a lob threat, a pick and pop threat, and defense. if duren was 2 years older, I'd have him and KO as my starting front court, but he's not ready.

Livers is often left of out consideration, but the more I think about it, he should be our starting 4. we don't need a stud we just need someone who is solid at ameverything and plays great team ball.

Cade
Ivey
Bey
Livers
Stewart

Hayes
Burkes
Diallo
Bagely
KO

this also opens up important minutes for Diallo in the second unit. I really like the balance of attack in this second unit too. Could be a lethal bench with Diallo and Bagely attacking, and Burkes and KO spreading the floor.

breezypeezy wrote:I like
Cade
Ivey
Bey
Bagley
Stewart
Until Duren is ready to assume his role as Stewart's upgrade.

Killian
Burkes
Livers/Diallo
KO/Knox
Stewart/Noels

Something like that, should be very fluid with several able to slide between 2-3 slots really.

Seems like Noels and Killian about the only 2 in rotation that are bound to only one position.

If Stewart shows the ability to hit 3's like he did in summer league I don't think he'd be replaced by Duren so Duren and Bagley would play at the same time for significant minutes. They both operate in the paint.

If Stew can hit the 3 at a decent clip and continues to play solid D, I don't think there's any way he doesn't start and continue to start. The center position IMO depends on Bagley developing serviceable defense at center because he has the offensive skill already, and Duren developing both serviceable offense and defense at the center position. Whichever of the two gets there with both skills first should start and the other guy comes off the bench. Call one a PF and one a C; it doesn't matter. Just depends on the matchups on a nightly basis and how the players develop.

AnnArborpiston wrote:I've gone through all the possible iterations and none of the obvious ones have the three important elements we need: a lob threat, a pick and pop threat, and defense. if duren was 2 years older, I'd have him and KO as my starting front court, but he's not ready.

Livers is often left of out consideration, but the more I think about it, he should be our starting 4. we don't need a stud we just need someone who is solid at ameverything and plays great team ball.

Cade
Ivey
Bey
Livers
Stewart

Hayes
Burkes
Diallo
Bagely
KO

this also opens up important minutes for Diallo in the second unit. I really like the balance of attack in this second unit too. Could be a lethal bench with Diallo and Bagely attacking, and Burkes and KO spreading the floor.

I don't see Duren being a #11-14 player even though he's a rookie.

Best case scenario is that Duren comes in and is good enough right away that he earns minutes on day one. I don't think that will be the case because he is so young and his bball IQ and skillset are likely not there yet, but I'd love to be wrong about that.

My guess would be that he plays minimal minutes for the first month or two of the season before hoping into the regular backup center role by January or February. We will hopefully see a ton of growth throughout the season from Duren who has a huge amount of room to improve.

Even though I was really happy with the Duren pick and think he's one of the highest upside guys in the league I could very well see a path for him that looks like this.

early 22/23: Not good enough to be a rotation player or bottom 5 backup center (Age 18)
late 22/23: Below average backup C
early 23/24: average backup C (Age 19)
late 23/24: above average backup C
early 24/25: top 5 backup center (Age 20)
late 24/25: bottom 5 starting center
early 25/26: Below average starting center (Age 21)
late 25/26: Average starting NBA center (14th - 16th best in the league)

Even if he progresses well over the next 4 seasons, I'd expect him to take a while before he becomes an average starter in the league. If by the end of season 4 he's close to being an average starting NBA center in the league, at age 21/22, he's on great track to have a heck of an NBA career.

Stewart-Noel-Bagley-Olynyk-Duren

Redshirt Duren to make him more than a rim runner/rebounder. I'd rather him work on skill and try it all out in G-League. Kid is so young and raw - need to polish him into a diamond.

bstein14 wrote:Best case scenario is that Duren comes in and is good enough right away that he earns minutes on day one. I don't think that will be the case because he is so young and his bball IQ and skillset are likely not there yet, but I'd love to be wrong about that.

My guess would be that he plays minimal minutes for the first month or two of the season before hoping into the regular backup center role by January or February. We will hopefully see a ton of growth throughout the season from Duren who has a huge amount of room to improve.

Even though I was really happy with the Duren pick and think he's one of the highest upside guys in the league I could very well see a path for him that looks like this.

early 22/23: Not good enough to be a rotation player or bottom 5 backup center (Age 18)
late 22/23: Below average backup C
early 23/24: average backup C (Age 19)
late 23/24: above average backup C
early 24/25: top 5 backup center (Age 20)
late 24/25: bottom 5 starting center
early 25/26: Below average starting center (Age 21)
late 25/26: Average starting NBA center (14th - 16th best in the league)

Even if he progresses well over the next 4 seasons, I'd expect him to take a while before he becomes an average starter in the league. If by the end of season 4 he's close to being an average starting NBA center in the league, at age 21/22, he's on great track to have a heck of an NBA career.

This seems like worst case scenario. (In terms of speed of development)

In any event, expectations for Duren should be pretty high. Some seem to be forgetting that Duren was Weavers guy. He really, really, wanted him in the draft. Even at 18 years old, he is physically ready day one, period. Obviously he has a ton of work to do on his overall game, but if he can learn the system quickly, he is going to be pushing to play serious minutes, fast.

He is an excellent shot-blocker, an ultimate lob-threat, a surprisingly good passer, and can move his feet all over the court. Him and Stewart defensively are going to create a beast tandem in the paint.

I would love to see him start alongside Stewart, but be the first subbed out, with him averaging around 20-22mpg, similar to what Stewart eventually did his rookie season.

It's all about Stewart becoming a honest to God stretch 4. If he does, he is going to be a perfect starting 4 in this league, especially considering his ability to defend.

I think this is still a developmental year for the team and Duren will get 12-16 minutes per game from jump. Weaver obviously coveted him because he's a runner, offensive rebounder, and a lob/putback/defensive paint threat. The staff will be amped to get him into games. Sure, there will be growing pains, but if he can keep the fouls down and show growth, he'll get all the run he can handle.

The Pistons started last season with Stewart, Garza and Olynyk as centers, with Olynyk missing much of the season. This season, with a vet and a rookie as the true centers and Stewart, Olynyk and Bagley as options, the rotation might be fluid based on matchups. It really won't matter who's the backup on a depth chart as the group sorts itself out on the floor and Duren shows where he belongs.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them start Bagley/Stewart as the 4/5 with Olynyk/Noel as the backups. Noel hopefully plays well enough while Duren gets acclimated that he gets moved by the deadline and Duren ends up in the backup role.

I like pairing a strong and weak defensive big within this roster, as well as a lob threat in each unit. There's so much more to work with this season.

A big thing to consider (if we’re trying to win games):

Stewart still has some foul trouble. He’s still working on exactly what he can get away with.

Duren is likely going to have really bad foul trouble this year. When you’re that strong and fast and have never played against anyone remotely as talented as NBA centers, it’s gonna be ugly some nights. You live with it and he learns from it, but he isn’t ready for anything more than 15 minutes (and 4 fouls) unless what I saw in Summer League is already in the past developmentally.

AnnArborpiston wrote:I've gone through all the possible iterations and none of the obvious ones have the three important elements we need: a lob threat, a pick and pop threat, and defense. if duren was 2 years older, I'd have him and KO as my starting front court, but he's not ready.

Livers is often left of out consideration, but the more I think about it, he should be our starting 4. we don't need a stud we just need someone who is solid at ameverything and plays great team ball.

Cade
Ivey
Bey
Livers
Stewart

Hayes
Burkes
Diallo
Bagely
KO

this also opens up important minutes for Diallo in the second unit. I really like the balance of attack in this second unit too. Could be a lethal bench with Diallo and Bagely attacking, and Burkes and KO spreading the floor.

I like the thought of starting Livers - great team player. Bagley can come off the bench and he can do his scorer's role with the 2nd group with Burks.

Also, just in general, matchups and development will make a difference. Cade Ivey Bey will always start. Certainly there are reasons to start KO, Bagley, Stewart, Duren. And I hope Duren gets minutes. He is too athletic to keep off the floor. He doesn't have to start (especially early), but I think by the end of the season he would be worthy to.

AnnArborpiston wrote:I've gone through all the possible iterations and none of the obvious ones have the three important elements we need: a lob threat, a pick and pop threat, and defense. if duren was 2 years older, I'd have him and KO as my starting front court, but he's not ready.

Livers is often left of out consideration, but the more I think about it, he should be our starting 4. we don't need a stud we just need someone who is solid at ameverything and plays great team ball.

Cade
Ivey
Bey
Livers
Stewart

Hayes
Burkes
Diallo
Bagely
KO

this also opens up important minutes for Diallo in the second unit. I really like the balance of attack in this second unit too. Could be a lethal bench with Diallo and Bagely attacking, and Burkes and KO spreading the floor.

I really like this. I don’t think Noel is guaranteed to get minutes. After all, he was out of the rotation last year in New York. If duren needs a little time to get acclimated then I think the lineup could be exactly what you posted.