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Cade & Ivey

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:45 pm
by aad
I expect them to shoot a lot of free throws I really do think Cade is gone get them calls this season and the way Ivey play taking it to the rim he’s gonna get more ft attempts as a rookie then Cade did

I’m excited for this backcourt this been a long offseason October 4th need to get it

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:51 pm
by grpistons
It will be exciting for sure. Can't remember the last time we had two prospects of the level of Cade and Ivey at the same time.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:59 pm
by MotownMadness
I have no doubt Ivey is going to be getting to the line quite a bit. Cade its still yet to be seen seeing as it hasn't happened at college or his rookie year yet.

Gonna be a exciting duo though that hopefully ends up working out for us for years

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:45 am
by zeebneeb
Hopefully it works. I have severe doubts that it can, and I shake my head everytime I listen to podcasts, or read comments just glossing over potential problems.

If it does work out, the Pistons potentially have the next great NBA backcourt. The combination of size, speed, shooting, slashing, passing, and defense, has the potential to be the very best in the league.

Let's see if it works.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:55 am
by whitehops
zeebneeb wrote:Hopefully it works. I have severe doubts that it can, and I shake my head everytime I listen to podcasts, or read comments just glossing over potential problems.

If it does work out, the Pistons potentially have the next great NBA backcourt. The combination of size, speed, shooting, slashing, passing, and defense, has the potential to be the very best in the league.

Let's see if it works.

what doubts do you have?

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:29 am
by aad
[quote="aad"]I expect them to shoot a lot of free throws I really do think Cade is gone get them calls this season and the way Ivey play taking it to the rim he’s gonna get more ft attempts as a rookie then Cade did

I’m excited for this backcourt this been a long offseason October 4th need to get here

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:46 am
by FloridaMan78
Not sure where doubts Cade and Ivey could work. Ivey played a lot off ball in college. Ivey will be on-ball in transition and late transition while the defense is scrambling. In the half court Ivey will be constantly running off screens and attacking the rim and hit open threes. And when Cade’s on the bench, the ball will be in Ivey’s hands and he should be allowed to create.

I had concerns with Killian working with Cade before last year since Killian was not a threat to score and didn’t space the floor.

We might still have problems with spacing with Bagley and Stewart if Stewart doesn’t improve his three point shooting. It’s tough to have two guys on the floor that are unable to hit threes at one time.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:10 am
by bstein14
If Ivey is best with the ball in his hands, I think you just work to stagger minutes more so one is always in the game with the ball. This likely eliminates Hayes from the lineup unless Hayes learned to shoot.

The biggest reasons Ivey wouldn't fit is if he's more like Hayes, best with the ball in his hands but can't shoot from the perimeter. But at least Ivey is also super athletic with a great first step.

Even if he doesn't fit great on day one, I think they'll certainly learn and grow together as the year progresses.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:44 am
by MotownMadness
FloridaMan78 wrote:Not sure where doubts Cade and Ivey could work. Ivey played a lot off ball in college. Ivey will be on-ball in transition and late transition while the defense is scrambling. In the half court Ivey will be constantly running off screens and attacking the rim and hit open threes. And when Cade’s on the bench, the ball will be in Ivey’s hands and he should be allowed to create.

I had concerns with Killian working with Cade before last year since Killian was not a threat to score and didn’t space the floor.

We might still have problems with spacing with Bagley and Stewart if Stewart doesn’t improve his three point shooting. It’s tough to have two guys on the floor that are unable to hit threes at one time.

As long as they both develop and reach their ceilings there should be no problems with them playing together.

Im just on a wait and see cause im sick of always being let down with this team and our prospects. So its not so much doubt but more hesitant to just blindly think we hit gold until i actually see it happen on the court this time.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:08 am
by zeebneeb
whitehops wrote:
zeebneeb wrote:Hopefully it works. I have severe doubts that it can, and I shake my head everytime I listen to podcasts, or read comments just glossing over potential problems.

If it does work out, the Pistons potentially have the next great NBA backcourt. The combination of size, speed, shooting, slashing, passing, and defense, has the potential to be the very best in the league.

Let's see if it works.

what doubts do you have?
First and foremost, there is always the team leader. We've all seen great players, who just couldn't work together. If they clash in terms of "who's the boss", it could be a huge problem. On offense, Cade is at his absolute best, with the ball, making decisions. Of course he can play off ball, but his strength lies in running the show. Ivey also works extremely well with the ball in his hands. We all watched how effective he was in summer league, and it was eye opening for me, just how dynamic he is with the ball.

Now Ivey is what I would call a pure scoring machine. Kid can get anywhere he wants it seems, and I can absolutely see him thriving in the 2 gaurd slot, no question. With that said, he is not RIP, nor is he Dumars. He is his own cat, and what happens if he just blows the doors off, and is like Ja? We all see Cade, and what he's becoming, on the cusp of becoming really special.

Can two potential all-stars(Cade we know its almost a certainty)co-exist?

I know it could absolutely work, and they could become the best backcourt in the league, but I don't think fans should just decide, "oh its gonna work, no problem" because they could absolutely clash. Thats all I'm saying. I'm hopeful, but wary.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:52 am
by FloridaMan78
MotownMadness wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:Not sure where doubts Cade and Ivey could work. Ivey played a lot off ball in college. Ivey will be on-ball in transition and late transition while the defense is scrambling. In the half court Ivey will be constantly running off screens and attacking the rim and hit open threes. And when Cade’s on the bench, the ball will be in Ivey’s hands and he should be allowed to create.

I had concerns with Killian working with Cade before last year since Killian was not a threat to score and didn’t space the floor.

We might still have problems with spacing with Bagley and Stewart if Stewart doesn’t improve his three point shooting. It’s tough to have two guys on the floor that are unable to hit threes at one time.

As long as they both develop and reach their ceilings there should be no problems with them playing together.

Im just on a wait and see cause im sick of always being let down with this team and our prospects. So its not so much doubt but more hesitant to just blindly think we hit gold until i actually see it happen on the court this time.


I have no doubt it will “work”.

Them achieving their ceilings together is different IMO.
I could see Ivey becoming a Ja Morant type and having Cade here could stunt him getting huge stats. Egos could get in the way no doubt. That’s later down the road.

Doesn’t mean they won’t be effective on the floor this year and the following year. Just having Ivey as a scoring threat will make Cade better. Having Cade helps Ivey because he’s young and still turnover prone, he’s lazy with the ball when he runs the point.

Having a problem like OKC had with Westbrook and Harden wouldn’t be bad thing. I think Troy will make the right decisions if that happens though.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:44 am
by 440BB
I can't think of a time we had a problem with too much talent in the backcourt. I like these new problems!

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:39 pm
by tradez401
i believe cade can adapt his game with any player we have so i have zero worries on the cade/ivey backcourt. it maybe rough at first like someone said but i see good things comin from it this season.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:36 pm
by Uncle Mxy
Cade & Ivey
Jacking up the three
W-I-N-N-I-N-G

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:44 pm
by Snakebites
Honestly outside shooting is my primary concern with the duo.

I never wanted Cade to be a heliocentric ball handler ala prime James Harden- I think having another ball handler will help him tremendously.

I just think to have a viable offense we need one or both to become consistent outside shooters. Which I do have hope for.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:22 pm
by zeebneeb
Snakebites wrote:Honestly outside shooting is my primary concern with the duo.

I never wanted Cade to be a heliocentric ball handler ala prime James Harden- I think having another ball handler will help him tremendously.

I just think to have a viable offense we need one or both to become consistent outside shooters. Which I do have hope for.
I honestly believe that Cades three-point % from his rookie season is going to be an aberration. His shot looked clean, and on target, but was almost always short, due to a lack of strength, and him getting constantly doubled, or chased by several defenders.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he shoots upwards of 38% next season.

If Ivey produces this season like we all hope/expect, it will take a huge amount of pressure off of Cade, defensively.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:14 pm
by whitehops
zeebneeb wrote:
Snakebites wrote:Honestly outside shooting is my primary concern with the duo.

I never wanted Cade to be a heliocentric ball handler ala prime James Harden- I think having another ball handler will help him tremendously.

I just think to have a viable offense we need one or both to become consistent outside shooters. Which I do have hope for.
I honestly believe that Cades three-point % from his rookie season is going to be an aberration. His shot looked clean, and on target, but was almost always short, due to a lack of strength, and him getting constantly doubled, or chased by several defenders.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he shoots upwards of 38% next season.

If Ivey produces this season like we all hope/expect, it will take a huge amount of pressure off of Cade, defensively.


there are a lot of signs pointing to cade being a good shooter (if not great). attempts are more predictive than 3P% and he was top 60 in attempts at 5.7 per game. he took all kinds of 3s (catch and shoot, pull ups, coming off screens, etc.) and looked comfortable shooting all of them. his shooting motion was quick/controlled in all situations so getting his shot off won't be a big issue.

beyond that the two biggest factors for me is that he was an elite 3P shooter in college and he's a very good free throw shooter. i think more than anything he just has to get his legs into his shot so hopefully he's spent some time this off season working on the footwork for that.

i wouldn't bank on 38% unless he was shooting purely catch and shoot 3s. pretty much all the primary ball handlers shoot a ton (7+) of 3s and they are all pretty much in the 35/36% range. there's nothing wrong with that because 35% is still efficient offense considering the level of difficulty of the shot.

ivey is much more of a question mark for me but i don't see a lot of reasons he couldn't be an average 3P shooter. he has a set shot so that might limit him in some ways but that only prevents him from being an elite shooter, not an adequate/average one.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:29 pm
by Manocad
I think this subject is being overthought. Cade is a good player and Ivey, at the very least given his capabilities and draft position, is expected to be a good player. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where two good guards dedicated to successful team play wouldn’t do well playing together given that it’s not a situation where both players are strictly catch and shoot, or strictly drive slash and drive, or can only create for themselves and not others, or can only create for others and not themselves.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:57 pm
by zeebneeb
Manocad wrote:I think this subject is being overthought. Cade is a good player and Ivey, at the very least given his capabilities and draft position, is expected to be a good player. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where two good guards dedicated to successful team play wouldn’t do well playing together given that it’s not a situation where both players are strictly catch and shoot, or strictly drive slash and drive, or can only create for themselves and not others, or can only create for others and not themselves.
I personally think its going to be a disaster.

Why?

I'm so used to being wrong, I may as well embrace it.

Re: Cade & Ivey

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:16 pm
by bstein14
Manocad wrote:I think this subject is being overthought. Cade is a good player and Ivey, at the very least given his capabilities and draft position, is expected to be a good player. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where two good guards dedicated to successful team play wouldn’t do well playing together given that it’s not a situation where both players are strictly catch and shoot, or strictly drive slash and drive, or can only create for themselves and not others, or can only create for others and not themselves.


It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together. Cade benefits more from the spacing CoJo provided and Hayes was more effective with the ball in his hands than a catch and shoot guy from the corner.

Biggest question mark for me will be how Ivey looks off the ball versus on the ball. If he's good at the catch and shoot game they'll be great together... in transition as well and with his athleticism we'll also see it on those back door cuts.

Ivey and Cade both need to become good with the ball and have high catch and shoot %s to really have a chance to break into the top 3 Pistons backcourts of all time with Zeke/Joe D and Billups/RIP. If they can both learn to play both ways effectively we're in for something special from the duo.