Under the radar: Killian Hayes.

[zeebneeb]

https://www.nba.com/news/under-the-radar-killian-hayes-growth-this-season


"It’s a good thing Hayes was prepared to take criticism because he faced a boatload of it in his first two seasons with Detroit.

The Frenchman was a highly touted prospect coming out of Europe, landing him with the Pistons at the No. 7 pick in the 2020 NBA Draft. Hayes failed to meet the high expectations that come with being a lottery pick, averaging just 6.8 points and 4.5 assists on 37.4% shooting and 26.8% from deep in his first two seasons.

Many considered him a bust."


Good article, and worth the read. Killians growth this season is one of very few bright spots worth paying attention to.

[Kalamazoo317]

The big question is whether he can still play this well when Cade is back in the lineup.

[bstein14]

The big question is whether he can still play this well when Cade is back in the lineup.

Also, assuming we don't draft a PG/SG or add on in FA... are we using a 3 guard rotation or a 4 guard rotation that includes Burks.

32 MPG of Cade, 16 MPG of Killian
30 MPG of Ivey, 18 MPG of Burks

It's going to really limit his role a bit next year. Livers also capable of playing SG and I know most people here have Diallo out the door but once Cade does come back its looking like we're going to have a hard time getting Killian more than about 20 MPG unless Cade plays SF.

[Invictus88]

The big question is whether he can still play this well when Cade is back in the lineup.

Also, assuming we don't draft a PG/SG or add on in FA... are we using a 3 guard rotation or a 4 guard rotation that includes Burks.

32 MPG of Cade, 16 MPG of Killian
30 MPG of Ivey, 18 MPG of Burks

It's going to really limit his role a bit next year. Livers also capable of playing SG and I know most people here have Diallo out the door but once Cade does come back its looking like we're going to have a hard time getting Killian more than about 20 MPG unless Cade plays SF.

Why on earth would we ever consider Burks for anything long-term?

[hoophabit]

I wish the eye test supported Hayes "hits floaters over bigger defenders with ease."

Still, it's only fair to acknowledge his improvement. He is playing more assertively while reducing the possessions where he dribbles into trouble. Solid growth.

[bstein14]

The big question is whether he can still play this well when Cade is back in the lineup.

Also, assuming we don't draft a PG/SG or add on in FA... are we using a 3 guard rotation or a 4 guard rotation that includes Burks.

32 MPG of Cade, 16 MPG of Killian
30 MPG of Ivey, 18 MPG of Burks

It's going to really limit his role a bit next year. Livers also capable of playing SG and I know most people here have Diallo out the door but once Cade does come back its looking like we're going to have a hard time getting Killian more than about 20 MPG unless Cade plays SF.

Why on earth would we ever consider Burks for anything long-term?

According to reports, Detroit wants to keep Burks for next year. He and Bojan both. Of course that could be Detroit just wanting to up their trade value a bit or maybe its true. Burks has easily been our 2nd best offensive player behind Bojan and is probably clear to a league average defender (maybe slightly before average) so he's a decent value for his $10 million player option next year.

[Kalamazoo317]

The big question is whether he can still play this well when Cade is back in the lineup.

Also, assuming we don't draft a PG/SG or add on in FA... are we using a 3 guard rotation or a 4 guard rotation that includes Burks.

32 MPG of Cade, 16 MPG of Killian
30 MPG of Ivey, 18 MPG of Burks

It's going to really limit his role a bit next year. Livers also capable of playing SG and I know most people here have Diallo out the door but once Cade does come back its looking like we're going to have a hard time getting Killian more than about 20 MPG unless Cade plays SF.

Why does Burks deserve more minutes than Hayes and (this is criminal, IMO) Ivey deserve almost *twice* as many minutes as Hayes? He's a better passer and defender than either of them.

[bstein14]

The big question is whether he can still play this well when Cade is back in the lineup.

Also, assuming we don't draft a PG/SG or add on in FA... are we using a 3 guard rotation or a 4 guard rotation that includes Burks.

32 MPG of Cade, 16 MPG of Killian
30 MPG of Ivey, 18 MPG of Burks

It's going to really limit his role a bit next year. Livers also capable of playing SG and I know most people here have Diallo out the door but once Cade does come back its looking like we're going to have a hard time getting Killian more than about 20 MPG unless Cade plays SF.

Why does Burks deserve more minutes than Hayes and (this is criminal, IMO) Ivey deserve almost *twice* as many minutes as Hayes? He's a better passer and defender than either of them.

I think Cade for sure is a 32+ MPG player next year when healthy. Ivey will be close to 30 MPG as well but its possible he could play slightly less than that. No chance they drop Ivey down to 20 MPG in year two IMO.

Burks has been really great for us, and even with Killian playing better Burks is still scoring super efficiently at a level Killian, Ivey, and Cade likely won't be at next year.

[Absolutia]

I think we should aspire to giving Cade, Killian and Jaden 32 minutes each next year, with the reality that they won't all be earning that, and Burks (if he's here), or maybe even Diallo will be getting some significant minutes too.

I like the idea of Jade coming from the bench - he has the agressive style that is more suitable to the one-man cavalry charge that is so desirable from a back-up.

[bstein14]

I think we should aspire to giving Cade, Killian and Jaden 32 minutes each next year, with the reality that they won't all be earning that, and Burks (if he's here), or maybe even Diallo will be getting some significant minutes too.

I like the idea of Jade coming from the bench - he has the agressive style that is more suitable to the one-man cavalry charge that is so desirable from a back-up.

I don't think we can be a playoff team with 96 minutes a game of guard play scoring the ball as inefficiently as those 3 have been.. Its not like we have a boatload of scoring in our front court either as Stew and Duren are likely both better defensively than offensively next year still.

I think you need efficient scorers like Burks and Bojan (or other players) in that lineup to help make up for the young guards (Killian, Ivey, Cade) who still aren't above league average TS% players.... I would bet we'll have Burks in the guard rotation and play 4 guards each night unless he is traded away at this deadline.

Now if Ivey, Cade, and Killian all make significant strides in scoring efficiency you probably could move to a 3 guard lineup at some point next year.... but I think they will need to prove it and earn it to push a Burks trade.

[Kalamazoo317]

Ivey needs to start playing better defense before I trust him as a longterm starter. Not saying he can't get there, but I wouldn't start him over Killian right now if the goal is to win.

[Pistonrings]

I said a while back after Casey said he was excited to get all 3 on the court at once, I think the Sadiq trade talk is because they want Cade at the 3 much of his time. But right now, no doubt Killian is better than Ivey. He is the QB of the team, I think he will be the starting PC next season with Ivey at the 2 and Cade at the 3.

[Invictus88]

Also, assuming we don't draft a PG/SG or add on in FA... are we using a 3 guard rotation or a 4 guard rotation that includes Burks.

32 MPG of Cade, 16 MPG of Killian
30 MPG of Ivey, 18 MPG of Burks

It's going to really limit his role a bit next year. Livers also capable of playing SG and I know most people here have Diallo out the door but once Cade does come back its looking like we're going to have a hard time getting Killian more than about 20 MPG unless Cade plays SF.

Why on earth would we ever consider Burks for anything long-term?

According to reports, Detroit wants to keep Burks for next year. He and Bojan both. Of course that could be Detroit just wanting to up their trade value a bit or maybe its true. Burks has easily been our 2nd best offensive player behind Bojan and is probably clear to a league average defender (maybe slightly before average) so he's a decent value for his $10 million player option next year.

There's no point in having a discussion if you actually believe whatever reports you are alluding to at face value. And if you don't really believe them then you are just wasting our time by making them the premise of your reply.

I honestly think you're still motivated by wanting to not see Killian Hayes have a successful career as a Detroit Piston.

Since you've run out of runway harping on poor performance you're now trying to invent fit concerns with players that very likely will not be part of our mid or log-term future.

P.S. Burks at times has been abject terrible defensively. And no. Hacking his man underneath the basket to force foul shots does not count as defense.

[bstein14]

Why on earth would we ever consider Burks for anything long-term?

According to reports, Detroit wants to keep Burks for next year. He and Bojan both. Of course that could be Detroit just wanting to up their trade value a bit or maybe its true. Burks has easily been our 2nd best offensive player behind Bojan and is probably clear to a league average defender (maybe slightly before average) so he's a decent value for his $10 million player option next year.

There's no point in having a discussion if you actually believe whatever reports you are alluding to at face value. And if you don't really believe them then you are just wasting our time by making them the premise of your reply.

I honestly think you're still motivated by wanting to not see Killian Hayes have a successful career as a Detroit Piston.

Since you've run out of runway harping on poor performance you're now trying to invent fit concerns with players that very likely will not be part of our mid or log-term future.

P.S. Burks at times has been abject terrible defensively. And no. Hacking his man underneath the basket to force foul shots does not count as defense.

Defensive Win Shares Burks in the best on the team on a per 48 basis.

Defensive Box Plus/Minus Burks is tied with Killian and they are both also tied with Livers (all three slightly behind Diallo).

Value Over Replacement Player Bojan is #1 on the team and Burks is #2 on the team.

Are you expecting us to just decline his option (if he isn't traded at the deadline) or are you thinking we just pick up the option but keep him out of the rotation?

Yes Killian's numbers in many areas are currently above Ivey, but I still would seriously doubt that Ivey ends up averaging less minutes per game than Killian next year. Ivey is still a super high upside player and I think Killian is molding himself into a good backup PG in this league but I don't see him having the star potential Ivey has. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Cowology]

Killian is an oddity. He might actually be our best all around player at the moment. Gasp.

[Crymson]

I said a while back after Casey said he was excited to get all 3 on the court at once

Casey likes to run three-guard lineups late in games. That's ironic, because he is also terrible at using more than one handler and a time and defaults to iso-ball late in games.

He's a bad coach and he hopefully won't be with the Pistons next season.

I think the Sadiq trade talk is because they want Cade at the 3 much of his time. But right now, no doubt Killian is better than Ivey. He is the QB of the team, I think he will be the starting PC next season with Ivey at the 2 and Cade at the 3.

There's been literally no tangible information that says the Pistons are trying to trade Bey. And apart from instances in which Stewart or Duren are injured, he's been playing from the bench for six weeks now.

Ivey needs to start playing better defense before I trust him as a longterm starter. Not saying he can't get there, but I wouldn't start him over Killian right now if the goal is to win.

A claim which leaves aside the fact that Killian and Cade cannot both have the ball at the same time. They are both heavily on-ball players. Cade is better on the ball when he's playing at his peak. Playing them together means getting less out of one or both---and they'd also be the least-athletic backcourt in the league.

And I'd be absolutely shocked if the Pistons were to prioritize winning a few more games over developing the likes of Ivey next season.

[Kalamazoo317]

Pistons want to develop Ivey and Hayes both. One doesn't take priority over the other. Ivey is a heavily on the ball player too. The difference is Hayes passes better, turns it over less, and plays defense.

[zeebneeb]

Killian is an oddity. He might actually be our best all around player at the moment. Gasp.

Thanks alot Cow. I'll be looking straight at you when he lays an egger tomorrow.