Saddiq with Atlanta

[Rodman]

Excellent article in Pistonpowered on Saddiq's performance with Atlanta vs Detroit. In short with Atlanta he is shooting 52% from the field and 50% from 3 point line. 63% of his shots are coming from the 3 point line as compared to 47% in Detroit. The article is critical of Detroit's coaching staff. calling it a failure to recognize a players skillset or failure to get him to play the role they needed him to play. Personally I do no see Casy as this great developer of talent. I do think Ivey is being mishandled, he dribbles too much. The same is true of Killian.The model for Ivey, imo, should be Curry. Constant movement w/o the ball.

[bstein14]

Ivey is one of the fastest guys in the league with the ball in his hands and he isn't good at catching an shooting coming off screens so I'm not sure why we'd play him like Curry..... Bey probably could have used some more looks coming off screens especially when he was playing PF or defended by a PF.

Of course Bey is going to look a lot better in an offense where several other players are more focal points and he really just gets to stick to a more defined role on the team. The more you try to do outside your comfort zone, the less likely it is you're going to be successful. It'll certainly be interesting if the Hawks end up giving Bey a 4 year extension this summer at $20+ million per how that will turn out for him in the long run. It's certainly something we've seen him able to do, put up a league average or better efficient 18+ PPG (did it post all-star break last year) .... but if the defense is still subpar you need to be extra efficient on offense to make up for it(which he has been in Atlanta).

Overall I was pretty surprised we couldn't get at least a single first round pick from a playoff team for him.... It certainly feels a bit like Weaver sold low on him.... he looked better when Cade and Grant were the more focal points of the offense and he was a 3rd/4th option.... We put him on the bench and then traded him for peanuts essentially.

[NYPiston]

Weaver didn't sell low on him, his value was already depreciated and was only going to lower more the longer he was in Casey's system. I'd say that getting an upside player in Wiseman was actually a pretty decent return when it boils down to it not taking need into account.

The problem, again, is that this coach has no idea how to put his players in a position to succeed. Weaver's downfall might very well be his undying loyalty to his friend. I'll know he's serious about winning when he's shopping for a new coach, whenever that is.

[bstein14]

Weaver didn't sell low on him, his value was already depreciated and was only going to lower more the longer he was in Casey's system. I'd say that getting an upside player in Wiseman was actually a pretty decent return when it boils down to it not taking need into account.

The problem, again, is that this coach has no idea how to put his players in a position to succeed. Weaver's downfall might very well be his undying loyalty to his friend. I'll know he's serious about winning when he's shopping for a new coach, whenever that is.

At some point, his value was certainly more than 5 seconds... that's selling low on the guy. If you rewind to the 2022 NBA draft you almost certainly could have gotten a mid to late first for him.

[NYPiston]

At some point, his value was certainly more than 5 seconds... that's selling low on the guy. If you rewind to the 2022 NBA draft you almost certainly could have gotten a mid to late first for him.

Based on?

You could also say that the Warriors sold low on Wiseman as well if we're basing it on his value 1-2 years ago.

[bstein14]

At some point, his value was certainly more than 5 seconds... that's selling low on the guy. If you rewind to the 2022 NBA draft you almost certainly could have gotten a mid to late first for him.

Based on?

You could also say that the Warriors sold low on Wiseman as well if we're basing it on his value 1-2 years ago.

For sure, if they could go back in time they'd almost certainly have just traded the draft pick and got win now pieces... or they would have traded him a deadline earlier. The longer you hold a bust the less he's worth. The same thing goes for us with Darko if we traded him sooner we could have gotten more than just the Rodney Sucky draft pick we could have gotten a good rotation piece to help us try to repeat in 2005.

That said, Bey was coming off of a strong finish to his 2nd year at the 2023 draft its almost certain that someone would have bought in on him but he came in struggling to start another season and it was clear he also didn't pair well with Bojan IMO. Our previous stance was reportedly that we weren't entertaining offers for him at all and then we went on to eventually sell him for 5 2nd rounders.

[Rodman]

You Play Ivey like Curry b/c Ivey excels when he has some space between he and the defender. Let Ivey create space by moving w/o the ball rather than constantly taking he defender off the dribble. It's simple basic basketball

[chrbal]

They’re 5-6 since he got there and 34-34 overall. He’s playing better but he hasn’t improved their record.

But at least he’s doing better

[Invictus88]

At some point, his value was certainly more than 5 seconds... that's selling low on the guy. If you rewind to the 2022 NBA draft you almost certainly could have gotten a mid to late first for him.

Based on?

You could also say that the Warriors sold low on Wiseman as well if we're basing it on his value 1-2 years ago.

For sure, if they could go back in time they'd almost certainly have just traded the draft pick and got win now pieces... or they would have traded him a deadline earlier. The longer you hold a bust the less he's worth. The same thing goes for us with Darko if we traded him sooner we could have gotten more than just the Rodney Sucky draft pick we could have gotten a good rotation piece to help us try to repeat in 2005.

That said, Bey was coming off of a strong finish to his 2nd year at the 2023 draft its almost certain that someone would have bought in on him but he came in struggling to start another season and it was clear he also didn't pair well with Bojan IMO. Our previous stance was reportedly that we weren't entertaining offers for him at all and then we went on to eventually sell him for 5 2nd rounders.

So I take it if we go back and look on the forums when Bey was having his strong finish that we'd find you were making posts all over the place to trade him for a 1st right?

My memory recalls exactly nobody asking for a trade of Bey at that point. Likely because while Bey was playing well for ushis flaws (defense and high usage for us) were not considered bad enough such that he was still considered part of our core.

You can't have it both ways here. Either you don't fault Weaver for not making a move that nobody was asking for at the time or you point out where you were this bastion of reason in a sea of ignorance.

Otherwise this is just another example of a bad 20/20 hindsight take.

As far as the 1st vs the 5 2nds etc. It's no secret that pretty much all of the big value firsts have long since changed hands from win-now teams to those looking to build assets. The fact that we were able to get a high lottery pick who still has some upside for Bey, who clearly was not showing himself well with the rest of our roster, is probably pretty fair to plus value to be honest.

[Billl]

meh. He's more efficient in a greatly reduced role. Not super shocking. I don't think anyone doubted he could be a role player taking open 3's. The team was trying to see if he could develop into more than that. If he can't, that's not someone you want to commit to as part of a core. That's the type of guy you add once the main pieces are in place.

[bjones521]

meh. He's more efficient in a greatly reduced role. Not super shocking. I don't think anyone doubted he could be a role player taking open 3's. The team was trying to see if he could develop into more than that. If he can't, that's not someone you want to commit to as part of a core. That's the type of guy you add once the main pieces are in place.

This! I heard reports that he wanted to add to his game. Bey didnt want to just stand in the corner and shoot. But thats pretty much his role in ATL. He pretty much didnt want to be Livers. Just play good D and shoot open 3's when the ball comes to you.

[mattao313]

They’re 5-6 since he got there and 34-34 overall. He’s playing better but he hasn’t improved their record.

But at least he’s doing better

What are we without him? 0-10? Show both sides my guy.

It was obvious we were using him wrong he should be a spot up shooter not frigging Tatum out there. Some guys don't need a big role.

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[NYPiston]

For sure, if they could go back in time they'd almost certainly have just traded the draft pick and got win now pieces... or they would have traded him a deadline earlier. The longer you hold a bust the less he's worth. The same thing goes for us with Darko if we traded him sooner we could have gotten more than just the Rodney Sucky draft pick we could have gotten a good rotation piece to help us try to repeat in 2005.

That said, Bey was coming off of a strong finish to his 2nd year at the 2023 draft its almost certain that someone would have bought in on him but he came in struggling to start another season and it was clear he also didn't pair well with Bojan IMO. Our previous stance was reportedly that we weren't entertaining offers for him at all and then we went on to eventually sell him for 5 2nd rounders.

Sure, anybody can look at things in hindsight but this was also before they signed Bojan which made him redundant and was after he had a pretty strong close to the season.

Also, where are you getting 5 2nds from? They got Wiseman out of the trade even if it was indirectly, sort of how they got Duren out of the Grant trade but not directly. Not saying that Wiseman is great value either but that was the return for the Pistons, not 5 2nds.

Regardless, what's done is done now so I don't see any real need to rehash it.

[Snakebites]

We'll see how sustainable his hot shooting is. And his defense is still very poor if metrics mean anything to you.

There was no version of events where we were going to be willing to committ a big deal to him.

Side note: it'll definitely be interesting to see how much money he gets in free agency.

I do agree that we were using him wrong- he wasn't ever going to be an on-ball post-creator and we insisted on trying to make him one.

But yeah, what's done is done. I'm sure folks will be talking about this one for years. My guess is that a few years out this will end up looking similar to letting go of Luke Kennard- another guy who puts up good shooting numbers without really doing much that impacts winning games. And no, the irony that Bey is who we got for Kennard isn't lost on me.

It's not that we traded these guys or even that they were traded at the wrong time. This team has for years failed to add value through the draft- which is in theory one of the only ways you can generate value on a team for free. It's a combination of poor drafting and poor player development. I'd argue that Kennard was the former and Bey is the latter- even his ceiling isn't anything special but he was the 19th pick. But I'm not going to stress that we didn't get enough for our disappointing prospect. It's the fact that he WAS disappointing that is the real issue.

[bstein14]

For sure, if they could go back in time they'd almost certainly have just traded the draft pick and got win now pieces... or they would have traded him a deadline earlier. The longer you hold a bust the less he's worth. The same thing goes for us with Darko if we traded him sooner we could have gotten more than just the Rodney Sucky draft pick we could have gotten a good rotation piece to help us try to repeat in 2005.

That said, Bey was coming off of a strong finish to his 2nd year at the 2023 draft its almost certain that someone would have bought in on him but he came in struggling to start another season and it was clear he also didn't pair well with Bojan IMO. Our previous stance was reportedly that we weren't entertaining offers for him at all and then we went on to eventually sell him for 5 2nd rounders.

Sure, anybody can look at things in hindsight but this was also before they signed Bojan which made him redundant and was after he had a pretty strong close to the season.

Also, where are you getting 5 2nds from? They got Wiseman out of the trade even if it was indirectly, sort of how they got Duren out of the Grant trade but not directly. Not saying that Wiseman is great value either but that was the return for the Pistons, not 5 2nds.

Regardless, what's done is done now so I don't see any real need to rehash it.

I'm sure we'll follow Bey's career trajectory here at closely, at least for as long as Weaver is still our GM. Weaver had the choice to get Wiseman for just 5 2nds to Portland.... we could have kept Bey in that deal. He moved on from Bey, perhaps in part, because he no longer saw him as a starter in this league. It'll be interesting to see if Bey turns himself into one or if he's just riding a hot streak on a new team.

[theBigLip]

A couple of notes:
- I would agree that Casey isn’t a great coach.
- Bey at $5M is a lot different than Bey at $15-20M. That is a huge component of the trade.

[chrbal]

They’re 5-6 since he got there and 34-34 overall. He’s playing better but he hasn’t improved their record.

But at least he’s doing better

What are we without him? 0-10? Show both sides my guy.

It was obvious we were using him wrong he should be a spot up shooter not frigging Tatum out there. Some guys don't need a big role.

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Context. They acquired him to improve their team. We traded him for Wiseman to see another ex lottery pick up close. While we would be starting to give players nights off because they were up late last night and other made up reasons.

He’s doing better there, which he wouldn’t have done here. But he’s not really showing that he’s worth $18-20 million per either. Had we not traded him, we probably would have signed him just to double down.

I just think this is a good addition by subtraction in terms of focusing on the cap

[mattao313]

They’re 5-6 since he got there and 34-34 overall. He’s playing better but he hasn’t improved their record.

But at least he’s doing better

What are we without him? 0-10? Show both sides my guy.

It was obvious we were using him wrong he should be a spot up shooter not frigging Tatum out there. Some guys don't need a big role.

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Context. They acquired him to improve their team. We traded him for Wiseman to see another ex lottery pick up close. While we would be starting to give players nights off because they were up late last night and other made up reasons.

He’s doing better there, which he wouldn’t have done here. But he’s not really showing that he’s worth $18-20 million per either. Had we not traded him, we probably would have signed him just to double down.

I just think this is a good addition by subtraction in terms of focusing on the cap

Still using records to show a role players isn't useful is weird. We can flip that and say he was a decent player here but also showed he can be good for a team actually attempting to go somewhere.

Also the market dictates his price. Atl may give him the bag or they get him at a good price. The idea that Weaver has to overpay a restricted FA is false. I mean we'll still have to pay wiseman in future too.

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[chrbal]

What are we without him? 0-10? Show both sides my guy.

It was obvious we were using him wrong he should be a spot up shooter not frigging Tatum out there. Some guys don't need a big role.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

Context. They acquired him to improve their team. We traded him for Wiseman to see another ex lottery pick up close. While we would be starting to give players nights off because they were up late last night and other made up reasons.

He’s doing better there, which he wouldn’t have done here. But he’s not really showing that he’s worth $18-20 million per either. Had we not traded him, we probably would have signed him just to double down.

I just think this is a good addition by subtraction in terms of focusing on the cap

Still using records to show a role players isn't useful is weird. We can flip that and say he was a decent player here but also showed he can be good for a team actually attempting to go somewhere.

Also the market dictates his price. Atl may give him the bag or they get him at a good price. The idea that Weaver has to overpay a restricted FA is false. I mean we'll still have to pay wiseman in future too.

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Fair. I’m just saying with the roster mix all being healthy, he wasn’t going to be a fit here anymore unless he suddenly plays defense better. He’s probably going to play good there, that’s fine. But there’s not much about him that makes him worth the money he’ll theoretically make. I just feel like he’s a player whose game is what it is, and that he’ll get paid for what he can potentially do.

I realize I might be rambling, but I just think he’s much more than a fan favorite type whose about to get paid like a key starter

[mattao313]

Context. They acquired him to improve their team. We traded him for Wiseman to see another ex lottery pick up close. While we would be starting to give players nights off because they were up late last night and other made up reasons.

He’s doing better there, which he wouldn’t have done here. But he’s not really showing that he’s worth $18-20 million per either. Had we not traded him, we probably would have signed him just to double down.

I just think this is a good addition by subtraction in terms of focusing on the cap

Still using records to show a role players isn't useful is weird. We can flip that and say he was a decent player here but also showed he can be good for a team actually attempting to go somewhere.

Also the market dictates his price. Atl may give him the bag or they get him at a good price. The idea that Weaver has to overpay a restricted FA is false. I mean we'll still have to pay wiseman in future too.

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Fair. I’m just saying with the roster mix all being healthy, he wasn’t going to be a fit here anymore unless he suddenly plays defense better. He’s probably going to play good there, that’s fine. But there’s not much about him that makes him worth the money he’ll theoretically make. I just feel like he’s a player whose game is what it is, and that he’ll get paid for what he can potentially do.

I realize I might be rambling, but I just think he’s much more than a fan favorite type whose about to get paid like a key starter

Yeah I'm not in favor of overpaying anyone I agree on that. I thought bey could be a good 3&d guy but his defense slipped his second season. I honestly think that's the coaching staffs fault trying to make him into something he isn't but idk.

I just don't see him having a big market to get paid unless he breaks out or something 14mil is what he's worth imo.

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