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Going crazy looking at mock drafts. even crazier is before the lottery. But 2nd rounders and non lottery picks are not changing. Looking at guys in the 20-30 range and thinking if we throw in a 2nd plus something (Bogdonovich, Burks, Bagley?), we could move into the late first round. Not sure what the trade is, but then I starting asking myself if that's even what we want to do.

So here's my internal (now external) debate - do we have enough quality prospects and keep our vets, or do we try for another in this draft?

Followup question - how far, without trading away our young core, could we move up using our 2nd + whatever?

Anything is possible with Weaver. That being said, he's made clear, both in words and action, that he intends to keep his quality vets and try to win next season. By quality, I mean Bojan and probably Burks.

We should do a trade using #31. I posted a few times in other threads, #31 + Killian Hayes (add future 2nds if needed) for Royce O'Neale for example.

We have enough bad prospects alread, we don't need any more of those. We don't need to add another Saben Lee for example.

If Weaver is shrewd enough he could probably turn Cade, Ivey, Duren, Stew, Bojan, Bagley and Wiseman into enough first round picks that the Pistons could start five 18-19 year old rookies next year plus have a couple more on the bench. The team can't keep placing its faith in old players.

theBigLip wrote:Going crazy looking at mock drafts. even crazier is before the lottery. But 2nd rounders and non lottery picks are not changing. Looking at guys in the 20-30 range and thinking if we throw in a 2nd plus something (Bogdonovich, Burks, Bagley?), we could move into the late first round. Not sure what the trade is, but then I starting asking myself if that's even what we want to do.

So here's my internal (now external) debate - do we have enough quality prospects and keep our vets, or do we try for another in this draft?

Followup question - how far, without trading away our young core, could we move up using our 2nd + whatever?

I still think that Bogie is worth a late 1st on his own; especially so if we have to take back salary filler in return. Man I wish he could learn to play a lick of defense...

vege wrote:We should do a trade using #31. I posted a few times in other threads, #31 + Killian Hayes (add future 2nds if needed) for Royce O'Neale for example.

We have enough bad prospects alread, we don't need any more of those. We don't need to add another Saben Lee for example.

Not sure if Bagley is a positive asset or not But if he is, and since he seems to be the odd man out now that we have Wiseman, maybe Bagley + 2nd and get into the high 20s? I'm guessing Hayes is perceived as negative, so not sure what we get without adding the extra picks as you mentioned.

I'm hoping we could do better than Saben Lee. But if we could get a serviceable player as you mentioned, that's probably the smarter move, which I guess answers my question. Of course, we don't know what trades are really available.

theBigLip wrote:

vege wrote:We should do a trade using #31. I posted a few times in other threads, #31 + Killian Hayes (add future 2nds if needed) for Royce O'Neale for example.

We have enough bad prospects alread, we don't need any more of those. We don't need to add another Saben Lee for example.

Not sure if Bagley is a positive asset or not But if he is, and since he seems to be the odd man out now that we have Wiseman, maybe Bagley + 2nd and get into the high 20s? I'm guessing Hayes is perceived as negative, so not sure what we get without adding the extra picks as you mentioned.

I'm hoping we could do better than Saben Lee. But if we could get a serviceable player as you mentioned, that's probably the smarter move, which I guess answers my question. Of course, we don't know what trades are really available.

Bagley on his contract and injury history is a negative 100% for sure. We would need #31 to turn him into an useless expiring.

Hayes is an expiring salary filler, nothing more than that.

theBigLip wrote: Of course, we don't know what trades are really available.

If this board has taught us anything over the years it's that ANY trade is available; it's Weaver's failure if it doesn't happen.

Let's be honest, vets that know how to win don't like to go to losing teams like the Pistons.

Winning vets that play defense like PJ Tucker go places where they can help stars win.

The only vets that go to losing teams are scorers and shooters like Bojan and Burks.

We'd better off finding the next PJ Tucker or Draymond Green or Grant William's in the 2nd round than trying to find another vet that can't the young guys how to actually win, because if they knew how to win they would go to a team with stars already established.

I do feel like we need another respected "culture change" defensive minded "vet"... it doesn't really have to be an older player just someone off their rookie deal with at least 4-5 years in the league that will lead by example with defensive effort and will also not accept guys going half ass on defense. I don't think we need Draymond, but we need someone who will help a new coach shift our defense from horrible to at least close to average.

i don't think there's a set answer but ultimately acquiring talent should be the goal.

i still have to do my draft prep but the lakers, heat and warriors would be great "win-now" trade partners. unfortunately the heat and warriors are way over the cap so we'd have to take on un-ideal salary like herro or draymond green but we could move burks and 31 for their picks. the lakers have way more cap flexibility so we could offer bojan + 31 for their 17th pick but if they want to bring back their new core members like russell, hachimura, reaves, etc. then that makes any trade more difficult.

and i don't think the team should hesitate to acquire quality players in the 25-29 yo range whether by trade or freaa agency.

bstein14 wrote:I do feel like we need another respected "culture change" defensive minded "vet"... it doesn't really have to be an older player just someone off their rookie deal with at least 4-5 years in the league that will lead by example with defensive effort and will also not accept guys going half ass on defense. I don't think we need Draymond, but we need someone who will help a new coach shift our defense from horrible to at least close to average.

You described Grant Williams

theBigLip wrote:Going crazy looking at mock drafts. even crazier is before the lottery. But 2nd rounders and non lottery picks are not changing. Looking at guys in the 20-30 range and thinking if we throw in a 2nd plus something (Bogdonovich, Burks, Bagley?), we could move into the late first round. Not sure what the trade is, but then I starting asking myself if that's even what we want to do.

So here's my internal (now external) debate - do we have enough quality prospects and keep our vets, or do we try for another in this draft?

Followup question - how far, without trading away our young core, could we move up using our 2nd + whatever?

The answer to your first question is in two weeks. The reason is because in MY opinion if we land Top 3, we are drafting Wemby scoot and miller in that order. BIG blessing is Scoot dropping to us, that's like Chris Paul dropping or Steph Curry. Truth be told I think Scoot is the most talented in the draft and Wemby has something you can't teach. I think he's a real point guard and Cade isn't and maybe Ivey is. I think Cade is a point forward like Tatum.

If we don't get Top 3, I think Weaver is going to draft Amen Thompson and trade the pick. The truth is if we don't land top 3 this year we are STILL where we were a year ago which is asset obtaining/building. So that's why the lottery is a big deal. If we get pick 4-5 trade DOWN for 2 picks. Then you got 3 more shots at a great player for cheap contract including the 31st pick so trading down at that point is genius specially with Cam Whitmore Ausar Thompson Jarrace Walker Hendricks those are all good prospects to have. I trust Weaver drafting one more year because he was magical getting Ivey and Duren. That's gotta be the best drafting I've ever witnessed to be honest. With another shot at top 3 or multiple picks from say 8-31, that's amazing with all the young guys we have.

It is not ever worth it moving up 2-3 spots in the draft. These young guys are crapshoots. Be careful what you wish for.

Next thing I'd try to do is take on a contract from a team for 2024 frp. That would set us up for a trade deadline trade where we can trade the pick along with one of the veterans we have and a young prospect for another starting wing.

That's why this offseason is big because we have a lot of moves to make because of our salary cap situation.

The biggest mistake Weaver can have is throwing too much money at someone before paying Cade. That's a mistake because he's the one who deserves the bag the most so you gotta start there first.

bstein14 wrote:I do feel like we need another respected "culture change" defensive minded "vet"... it doesn't really have to be an older player just someone off their rookie deal with at least 4-5 years in the league that will lead by example with defensive effort and will also not accept guys going half ass on defense. I don't think we need Draymond, but we need someone who will help a new coach shift our defense from horrible to at least close to average.

Don't undersell the tanking effect. If the players know the goal is to tank they're likely not going to be out there busting ass 110% on defense; that will be the first thing they'll lighten up on. Get your points and keep your stats looking respectable but since the goal is to tank, take it easy on the defensive effort.

You can see that Bojan just doesn't have the ability to play high level defense. But guys like Ivey and Bagley who certainly have the athletic ability to play good defense but get called out for bad defense? Maybe they weren't trying to play high level defense given the goal is to tank. Plus Ivey is a rookie to boot, so there's that.

It's contradiction. You can't expect a tank but also expect every player to perform at their own personal high level both offensively AND defensively all the time. That WINS games.

Miami Out: Duncan Robinson / Nikola Jovic / #18
Miami In: John Collins / #31 / future 2nds from Detroit

They get an upgrade in a position of need

Atlanta Out: John Collins
Atlanta In: Marvin Bagley / Nikola Jovic

they get out of the LT

Detroit Out: Marvin Bagley / #31 / future 2nds
Detroit In: Duncan Robinson / #18

We get #18 for #31 and for taking on Robinson's extra year and extra money. I am not sure if future 2nds are needed but I added them just in case.

vege wrote:Miami Out: Duncan Robinson / Nikola Jovic / #18
Miami In: John Collins / #31 / future 2nds from Detroit

They get an upgrade in a position of need

Atlanta Out: John Collins
Atlanta In: Marvin Bagley / Nikola Jovic

they get out of the LT

Detroit Out: Marvin Bagley / #31 / future 2nds
Detroit In: Duncan Robinson / #18

We get #18 for #31 and for taking on Robinson's extra year and extra money. I am not sure if future 2nds are needed but I added them just in case.

Can probably do this w/o Atlanta as well. Miami is a little hamstrung until they move Robinson’s contract. If we got Jovic and #18, it starts to get interesting. Question is, can Robinson get back that shooting touch he had a couple of years ago? Maybe we could give him steroids and make him a PF?

theBigLip wrote:Going crazy looking at mock drafts. even crazier is before the lottery. But 2nd rounders and non lottery picks are not changing. Looking at guys in the 20-30 range and thinking if we throw in a 2nd plus something (Bogdonovich, Burks, Bagley?), we could move into the late first round. Not sure what the trade is, but then I starting asking myself if that's even what we want to do.

Bojan plus Burks and #31 *might* fetch a first in the late teens, but I think they're more valuable to the Pistons than that. They're veteran scorers and elite floor spacers who'll play a valuable offensive role alongside the team's youth and contribute some leadership to boot.

Bagley is a negative trade asset, full stop. He's a limited scorer, weak rebounder, horrible defender, and reclamation project who just finished another injury-filled, uninspiring season and has two fully guaranteed years remaining at eight figures apiece.

Manocad wrote:Don't undersell the tanking effect. If the players know the goal is to tank they're likely not going to be out there busting ass 110% on defense; that will be the first thing they'll lighten up on. Get your points and keep your stats looking respectable but since the goal is to tank, take it easy on the defensive effort.

But guys like Ivey and Bagley who certainly have the athletic ability to play good defense but get called out for bad defense? Maybe they weren't trying to play high level defense given the goal is to tank. Plus Ivey is a rookie to boot, so there's that.

It's contradiction. You can't expect a tank but also expect every player to perform at their own personal high level both offensively AND defensively all the time. That WINS games.

Players don't go out and tank. Ivey definitely tried his hardest, and I don't think Bagley did any less. The Pistons lost because they had a bad roster and bad coaching. Down the stretch, the roster got even worse and the games got correspondingly uglier.

As for the defense, Ivey struggled as a rookie and Bagley is just straight bad and always has been. He was awful at Duke, and he's been awful in the NBA. He just doesn't seem to have the acumen to make the lightning-fast reads and decisions required to play defense in a very fast game against the best players in the world. That's particularly impactful when he plays center, at which he is a complete and utter disaster on defense, but it's also very evident when he's defending on the perimeter; if he's forced to make a series of switches or rotations, it's very likely that he'll eventually screw up and surrender an easy basket to the opposition.

vege wrote:Miami Out: Duncan Robinson / Nikola Jovic / #18
Miami In: John Collins / #31 / future 2nds from Detroit

They get an upgrade in a position of need

Atlanta Out: John Collins
Atlanta In: Marvin Bagley / Nikola Jovic

they get out of the LT

Detroit Out: Marvin Bagley / #31 / future 2nds
Detroit In: Duncan Robinson / #18

We get #18 for #31 and for taking on Robinson's extra year and extra money. I am not sure if future 2nds are needed but I added them just in case.

The Heat aren't really getting a big upgrade there. Collins is consistently unreliable on one end or the other, he's a poor fit next to Bam, and he can be penciled in with a fair degree of accuracy to miss a solid 20 games per season. Caleb Martin has been surprisingly good, and he's a much better fit. I doubt the Heat would care to lose both Jovic and #18 for that.

So using Tankathon’s mock, there are some SFs late.
23 - Lewis
25 - Whitehead
26 - Miller

Portland, Sacramento, and Memphis pick at #23-25. That seems like some good targets for us to trade up.

Miami’s #18 looks great but we would have to take Robinson.

The pick I would really like to get is Dallas’s #10. They need players not rookies. Not sure how we could pull that off.

As for tradeable assets:
Bogdonovich/Burks/Wiseman/#31 in some combo
Dreaming that Bagley/Hayes had some value
Cap space (we have to eat a contract)

Manocad wrote:If Weaver is shrewd enough he could probably turn Cade, Ivey, Duren, Stew, Bojan, Bagley and Wiseman into enough first round picks that the Pistons could start five 18-19 year old rookies next year plus have a couple more on the bench. The team can't keep placing its faith in old players.

You'd need a big-bucks non-rookie contract or two to meet the $111 million minimum cap. If Weaver is really shrewd, he'd pay me that. I'd promise not to wreck team chemistry by showing up.

theBigLip wrote:Going crazy looking at mock drafts. even crazier is before the lottery. But 2nd rounders and non lottery picks are not changing. Looking at guys in the 20-30 range and thinking if we throw in a 2nd plus something (Bogdonovich, Burks, Bagley?), we could move into the late first round. Not sure what the trade is, but then I starting asking myself if that's even what we want to do.

So here's my internal (now external) debate - do we have enough quality prospects and keep our vets, or do we try for another in this draft?

Followup question - how far, without trading away our young core, could we move up using our 2nd + whatever?

I was actually discussing this with my brother last night.

Remove the draft pick out of the equation, and go from there as a thought experiment.

If this team added Jimmy Butler at the SF position;

Cade
Ivey
Butler
Stewart
Duren

How many wins next year? Butler provides a real toughness to this team. It's not so much he's a damn good player, but his attitude is pure alpha. I believe if you add a player with his demeanor and drive that starting 5 would blossom, and really win some damn games.

"Well if you add any superstar your going to add wins lololol" sure, but the most important part of any player is their drive, and attitude. Just adding Butler to the bench(let's say he's injured for the whole season)would help immensely.

I think this is what the Pistons should do now. Add a real leader to the team. Pat Beverly would also have a huge impact.