Mistake avoided last summer

[theBigLip]

During free agency last year, remember everyone getting excited about the thought of getting Ayton? Obviously Phoenix was going to match any offers, but it could have happened. And we would be dead as a franchise - capped out and stuck w him. Watching him this year and now in the playoffs, he is good but not a difference maker. You can’t overpay these types of players.

Which leads to this off season. It doesn’t seem like there are going to be anyone that can move the needle for us. I hope we’re careful w our cap space, use it in trades, and get a few good value free agents at a good price.

[bstein14]

As I've mentioned before, I'd still trade Wiseman + Bagley + Hayes for Ayton straight up. Ayton is overpaid (for 3 more years) but he's an above average starting center in this league and we are a team lacking solid starters. Of course Jokic is going to have his way against him because Jokic is an all-time great player... he's probably also struggle against someone like Embiid... but most centers in the East he's going to win those matchups.

That said, I'm much happier to have young Duren and Duren is likely going to be turning himself into a player like Ayton (on offense) but hopefully with better defense and rim protection. 3rd year Ayton putting up 17.2 PPG and 10.2 RPG with a 65.6 TS% is exactly the type of stat line I hope a 3rd year Duren can put up for us.... of course I'd settle for slightly less I'd be happy with 15 an 10 from him by year 3 as he'll still be pretty young at just 20 to start his third season in the league.

He was not as good this season as he was the previous season, and its hard to say if that's just because he got paid the bag and is set for life, or if he was unhappy that the Suns didn't take care of him in the first place and made him go out and get that offer from another team... but either way he's still just 24 and in theory should be getting better the next few years.

[NYPiston]

They avoided the Ayton mistake but then made the even bigger mistake of signing Bagley and the Wiseman trade which will equal out to almost Ayton money anyway over the next year at least depending on if they extend Wiseman or not although they likely wouldn't have made the Duren trade if they had traded for Ayton so I guess it's more like Duren+Wiseman+Bagley vs. Ayton. Duren+more cap space would be nice instead of the former but... here we are.

[Billl]

Obviously, having duren show out makes the Ayton signing look bad in comparison. If duren was the same caliber prospect at the 4 though, Ayton is a really solid frontcourt partner.

[SuperBad]

Unless we land VW, we got our bigs for the next couple seasons, though I bet money weaver finds a way to trade for one more somehow.

[zeebneeb]

People are making way, way to much out of the Bagley, and Wiseman deals. They mean absolutely nothing in the long-term. Context is king.

The suns handing out 30+million until 25/26 to an adequate Center, with no passion, or fire. Andre Drummond type, is catastrophic, as they are now stuck, at being almost good enough.

Bagley is 12,500,00 for the next two years, and next year is a 12,100,000 option for Wiseman. Both are easily movable.

Having capspace in today's NBA where everybody is extended before they hit free agency is pointless usually, and can mostly be used to absorb contracts in trades.

Not paying Ayton was dodging a huge bullet, for sure.

Pistons suck, and if they take off this year, that means everyone that matters is 19-22 years old, and those two contracts don't mean squat.

As for the offseason, signing someone like Grant Williams, who i really like at the SF position would be ideal, or a trade for a different SF. This of course depends on the draft. If the Pistons take a SF, that changes things.

May 16th folks. Future decided basically.

[flow]

I was one of the guys really pushing for Ayton, and I was wrong. He's always been a finesse player, but he's really playing soft. Too soft for his position. He's a talented player, but in hindsight I'm glad we didn't sign him to that contract.

[theBigLip]

People are making way, way to much out of the Bagley, and Wiseman deals. They mean absolutely nothing in the long-term. Context is king.

Bagley is 12,500,00 for the next two years, and next year is a 12,100,000 option for Wiseman. Both are easily movable.

Agree on this. I wish Bagley had been healthy last year. Regardless, he can (and should be) moved. Wiseman is still someone who could take a big leap. Too early to complain about him.

Even if Bagley + Wiseman + Hayes = Ayton’s deal this year, we are more flexible cap wise. Anton is getting paid for another 4 years.

[mattao313]

He was a bad contract waiting to happen rim running centers just ain't that valuable these days and he's soft af. We got 80% of ayton with duren and he isn't soft either.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[Invictus88]

People are making way, way to much out of the Bagley, and Wiseman deals. They mean absolutely nothing in the long-term. Context is king.

Bagley is 12,500,00 for the next two years, and next year is a 12,100,000 option for Wiseman. Both are easily movable.

Agree on this. I wish Bagley had been healthy last year. Regardless, he can (and should be) moved. Wiseman is still someone who could take a big leap. Too early to complain about him.

Even if Bagley + Wiseman + Hayes = Ayton’s deal this year, we are more flexible cap wise. Anton is getting paid for another 4 years.

You can state this till the cows come home and some folks on this thread simply refuse to acknowledge it. The willful ignorance displayed on this board sometimes is unreal.

[King Bugs]

I had interest in the Ayton after the disappointment of dropping out of the top 3 in the lottery last year. I knew the red flags about how soft and finesse he is, but man that drop to 5 was so crushing, I felt like we had to make something positive out of that situation. Not like it mattered, Phoenix wasn't letting him go anyway.

Sorta related... I don't know how high the FO was on Jabari Smith Jr., but that's looking like another bullet we possibly dodged by falling out of the top 3. Soft, low shooting percentages, stands around on the perimeter chucking long jumpers and looking like a role player at best. He was everyone's (not Orlando's obviously) #1 projected player before draft night, I'd be absolutely sick right now.

[zeebneeb]

I had interest in the Ayton after the disappointment of dropping out of the top 3 in the lottery last year. I knew the red flags about how soft and finesse he is, but man that drop to 5 was so crushing, I felt like we had to make something positive out of that situation. Not like it mattered, Phoenix wasn't letting him go anyway.

Sorta related... I don't know how high the FO was on Jabari Smith Jr., but that's looking like another bullet we possibly dodged by falling out of the top 3. Soft, low shooting percentages, stands around on the perimeter chucking long jumpers and looking like a role player at best. He was everyone's (not Orlando's obviously) #1 projected player before draft night, I'd be absolutely sick right now.

What is weird about it, is that, take your pick, Wiseman, or Bagley, if you combine them with Smith you have that ideal bigman. One is outside, the other two are all inside.

[Invictus88]

but either way he's still just 24 and in theory should be getting better the next few years.

No. As stated in discussions prior to him signing the extension he has not improved his game/skillset or output in any appreciable way from year to year since he came in the league.

We had 4 years of data supporting this at the point we had this discussion before he was extended. Now we have five:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01.html

All current evidence actually points to him not improving further. Folks spouting forth this nonsense are once again just deluding themselves instead of acknowledging the reality that is in front of them.

[mattao313]

I had interest in the Ayton after the disappointment of dropping out of the top 3 in the lottery last year. I knew the red flags about how soft and finesse he is, but man that drop to 5 was so crushing, I felt like we had to make something positive out of that situation. Not like it mattered, Phoenix wasn't letting him go anyway.

Sorta related... I don't know how high the FO was on Jabari Smith Jr., but that's looking like another bullet we possibly dodged by falling out of the top 3. Soft, low shooting percentages, stands around on the perimeter chucking long jumpers and looking like a role player at best. He was everyone's (not Orlando's obviously) #1 projected player before draft night, I'd be absolutely sick right now.

I didn't have him at 1 he literally couldn't dribble in college. I still think he can be a high level 3&D guy tho like Bridges in Phoenix.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[NYPiston]

You can state this till the cows come home and some folks on this thread simply refuse to acknowledge it. The willful ignorance displayed on this board sometimes is unreal.

It's not ignorance to state that having both Bagley and Wiseman is a mistake. Putting aside that they have redundant skillsets to pile on to the glut of big men they had already but they're also overpaid for what they bring and that's when they're on the court, Bagley is oft injured and Wiseman has his injury issues also.

Yes, the Ayton contract is worse because it's longer but he's also far better than either of those guys. Ideally, the Pistons would have let Bagley walk, trade Bey for a bunch of 2nds and have the extra cap space to add players that are better team fits. Hell, I could even deal with one of Bagley or Wiseman but both? Ridiculous. Enough reclamation projects, time to bring in some real players.

[bstein14]

People are making way, way to much out of the Bagley, and Wiseman deals. They mean absolutely nothing in the long-term. Context is king.

Bagley is 12,500,00 for the next two years, and next year is a 12,100,000 option for Wiseman. Both are easily movable.

Agree on this. I wish Bagley had been healthy last year. Regardless, he can (and should be) moved. Wiseman is still someone who could take a big leap. Too early to complain about him.

Even if Bagley + Wiseman + Hayes = Ayton’s deal this year, we are more flexible cap wise. Anton is getting paid for another 4 years.

After this season, there are two more years on Ayton's deal. It was a 4 year deal with last year being year one... and this year being year two. I would guess if the Suns GM called around the league he would get a better trade offer for Ayton than we would if Weaver called around the league trying to move Wiseman/Bagley/Hayes.

[Invictus88]

You can state this till the cows come home and some folks on this thread simply refuse to acknowledge it. The willful ignorance displayed on this board sometimes is unreal.

It's not ignorance to state that having both Bagley and Wiseman is a mistake. Putting aside that they have redundant skillsets to pile on to the glut of big men they had already but they're also overpaid for what they bring and that's when they're on the court, Bagley is oft injured and Wiseman has his injury issues also.

Yes, the Ayton contract is worse because it's longer but he's also far better than either of those guys. Ideally, the Pistons would have let Bagley walk, trade Bey for a bunch of 2nds and have the extra cap space to add players that are better team fits. Hell, I could even deal with one of Bagley or Wiseman but both? Ridiculous. Enough reclamation projects, time to bring in some real players.

I was talking about stating in totality that Ayton's contract is way more detrimental to us cap-wise than the other folks we currently have on our roster. That fact has been stated many times over yet time and time again the same folks lament about their wasted salary and then bring up Ayton as some sort of solution to this.

We have Duren for goodness sake.

[edmunder_prc]

How long is it going to take the Pistons to even get a player as good as Ayton in FA? No one is available this summer.

Cade is better than Ayton. Bojan is old and can hit shots, but gives up as many as he makes - he is a bench guy.

Ivey and Duren still need time. They both should be better than Ayton in a couple years, but Ayton has more talent than either. He could be Embiid lite if he got it together.

The rest of the Pistons roster is a dumpster fire and guys here are talking about dodging bullets? What - so we can get MORE Bagley, Wiseman, Plumlee? Like what moves exactly has Weaver made that are so much better than getting Ayton. The Suns are in the playoffs. We were the worst team in the league.

[Invictus88]

People are making way, way to much out of the Bagley, and Wiseman deals. They mean absolutely nothing in the long-term. Context is king.

Bagley is 12,500,00 for the next two years, and next year is a 12,100,000 option for Wiseman. Both are easily movable.

Agree on this. I wish Bagley had been healthy last year. Regardless, he can (and should be) moved. Wiseman is still someone who could take a big leap. Too early to complain about him.

Even if Bagley + Wiseman + Hayes = Ayton’s deal this year, we are more flexible cap wise. Anton is getting paid for another 4 years.

After this season, there are two more years on Ayton's deal. It was a 4 year deal with last year being year one... and this year being year two.

This is literally an ABSOLUTE falsehood.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/phoenix-suns/deandre-ayton-26967/

Ayton's contract has 3 years left after this year.
2023-24 for $32,459,438
2024-25 for $34,005,126
2025-26 for $35,550,814

All guaranteed.

You literally don't know what you are talking about. Just stop.

[zeebneeb]

How long is it going to take the Pistons to even get a player as good as Ayton in FA? No one is available this summer.

Cade is better than Ayton. Bojan is old and can hit shots, but gives up as many as he makes - he is a bench guy.

Ivey and Duren still need time. They both should be better than Ayton in a couple years, but Ayton has more talent than either. He could be Embiid lite if he got it together.

The rest of the Pistons roster is a dumpster fire and guys here are talking about dodging bullets? What - so we can get MORE Bagley, Wiseman, Plumlee? Like what moves exactly has Weaver made that are so much better than getting Ayton. The Suns are in the playoffs. We were the worst team in the league.

Talent mean absolutely nothing without the passion, and drive to compete. With that comes impact.

Duren will have more of an impact next year, then Ayton ever has. I know that's a prognostication, but I firmly believe it.

Its not that we dodged a bullet in Ayton so much, but the bullet dodged is his enormous contract.