Pistons Roster - Solving the overload

[NYPiston]

There was a "What's your team's lineup" thread on the main board and it got me to thinking when I actually typed out the lineup that a trade or two has to be in the works.
I'll spell it out so you guys see what I mean and make any corrections to the lineup if you feel differently.

Starters

Cade
Ivey
Bogdanovic
Stewart
Duren

Bench

Morris
Burks
Thompson
Bagley
Wiseman

Hayes
Sasser
Harris

I just don't see any way that they carry Hayes and Harris as the 13th and 14th player and Sasser is going to need minutes at some point, he's an old rookie and they traded up into the 1st for him so I'd assume that he's NBA ready in their mind.
Whose minutes do Hayes and Harris take? I'm not seeing it.
What do you all think? Am I overthinking this?

[Billl]

I don't think you are overthinking it. There is no room in the rotation for as many guys as we are supposedly trying to develop. Assuming we are actually trying to win games now that is. And 1 of Bagley or Wisemen likely gets squeezed out as well since thompson can only get significant minutes if boogey is playing some of his minutes at the 4. And Livers is sitting out there still no on your list.

Also, if you attach salaries to those guys, the bench brigade is making more than the starters. 3 of the teams 4 highest paid players aren't even in the starting lineup. I get it - rookie scale contacts and all - but these vets are all used to playing substantial rotation minutes. It's not like sticking langston galloway in there and he's happy just to be on a roster and getting a vet min. These guys are free agents at the end of the year and their production this year is going to be worth millions to them in the summer.

[whitehops]

imo there's no easy rotation to put together at this point. in your rotation you're leaving harris on the bench who is one of the best shooters in the nba, someone who has been a legit rotation player for the last 7 years and is getting paid $20M. that's not a knock, i'm just trying to to say that the roster is... messy?

i'd love to see either bagley or wiseman out of the rotation instead of harris, preferably wiseman.

[Spider156]

I’d let the coach of the year handle the rotations, he’s pretty strict so we’re gonna find out who he likes on the roster pretty quickly.

My guess is the lineup will be this to start the season.

Cade/Morris/Killian
Ivey/Burks/Sasser
Bojan/Ausar/Harris
Stewart/Bagley/Livers
Duren/Wiseman

For NOW that’s the lineup I see. I can see us making a trade before training camp or by the trade deadline to ease off the big man rotation. Give the kids a chance first, we’re not losing anything having too much talent. It’s called having depth.

By December or trade deadline I can see this as the rotation.

Cade/Morris/Killian (T)
Ivey/Burks (T)/Sasser
Ausar/Harris/Livers
Bojan (T)/Stewart/Livers
Duren/Wiseman (T) or Bagley (T)

T = Traded player potential.

Fans are quite impatient it’s pretty annoying if you ask me.
1. Let the kids play and see who makes the jump first or who gets hurt
2. Let the veterans play to gain trade value to sign a contract next summer
3. Let the REST OF THE LEAGUE play and find out who gets hurt and what teams will need from there
4. Let Cade/Monte/Monty orchestrate the offense and see who actually fits the system Monty is trying to implement

[NYPiston]

I don't think you are overthinking it. There is no room in the rotation for as many guys as we are supposedly trying to develop. Assuming we are actually trying to win games now that is. And 1 of Bagley or Wisemen likely gets squeezed out as well since thompson can only get significant minutes if boogey is playing some of his minutes at the 4. And Livers is sitting out there still no on your list.

Also, if you attach salaries to those guys, the bench brigade is making more than the starters. 3 of the teams 4 highest paid players aren't even in the starting lineup. I get it - rookie scale contacts and all - but these vets are all used to playing substantial rotation minutes. It's not like sticking langston galloway in there and he's happy just to be on a roster and getting a vet min. These guys are free agents at the end of the year and their production this year is going to be worth millions to them in the summer.

Oh right, I forgot about Livers. That's 4 guys who should be getting minutes (I assume that they really like Harris based on what Weaver said). It seems like a pretty clear top 10 man rotation to me so I don't know how they fit these guys in. Yes, the 11th and 12th guy will get some minutes but they'll be limited.

In any event, it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. For starters, Sasser appears destined for the G League. I also think a Hayes trade is likely, otherwise why would they trade for Morris, draft Sasser (trading up to do so) and retain Burks?

[tmorgan]

It’s clear we need to deal Killian, he’s PG3, and that’s not even accounting for Ivey and Sasser. He likely won’t play much if at all.

Thing is, does anyone else in the NBA want to give Killian minutes? We aren’t going to pay to unload him, I assume, but who takes him for free? That requires 7 million, a roster spot, and (presumably) some guard minutes available.

I’d gladly trade him into cap space to avoid any drama. If it needs to be player for player, he isn’t going to return anyone likely to upgrade our rotation, except maybe a young out-of-favor power forward. Even that would require another trade to dump Bagley or move on from Wiseman to be useful.

We’re probably stuck with him, so unless someone gets hurt, Killian’s going to be an unhappy camper.

[bstein14]

It doesn't hurt to go into training camp and see how some of the young guys look. Did Livers, Hayes, Bagley, or Wiseman take a noticeable step forward? If not, I'm not sure we have any type of "overload" at all. Just guys who are outside of a 10 man rotation looking in.

Duren(29)/Bagley(19)(or Wiseman)
Stew(29)/Harris(19)
Bojan(29)/Ausar(19)
Ivey(33)/Burks(15)
Cade(33)/Morris(15)

I don't want to trade away "better" players just so there are rotation spots for guys. Screw handing anything to anyone at this point make them beat people out if they want to play. If you coddle them too much you'll end up with more Killians.

This lineup is flexible too. If Sasser earns a spot but Ausar isn't as ready move Burks to SG... or if Harris is the weakest rotation player and someone else is pushing, move Harris out of the rotation. Let people battle it out for the right to play don't trade people away just to make things easy on people.

[zeebneeb]

It’s clear we need to deal Killian, he’s PG3, and that’s not even accounting for Ivey and Sasser. He likely won’t play much if at all.

Thing is, does anyone else in the NBA want to give Killian minutes? We aren’t going to pay to unload him, I assume, but who takes him for free? That requires 7 million, a roster spot, and (presumably) some guard minutes available.

I’d gladly trade him into cap space to avoid any drama. If it needs to be player for player, he isn’t going to return anyone likely to upgrade our rotation, except maybe a young out-of-favor power forward. Even that would require another trade to dump Bagley or move on from Wiseman to be useful.

We’re probably stuck with him, so unless someone gets hurt, Killian’s going to be an unhappy camper.

My gut feeling is that Hayes, one of Burks/Bojan, and Bagley/Wiseman are gone before, or soon after the season starts.

Despite what many here feel about him, Hayes doesn't have zero value(Defense, and passing ability)but he's never going to be the centerpiece in a trade out of town. My guess, is that he gets lumped in with Bojan and a big.

New Orleans is reported to be looking for another Center, and they also need shooting, and another PG. The Pistons are a natural trading partner. Weaver wants a first for Bojan, and he may get it in a package deal.

Now they all don't have to be dealt together, but clearing out those three guys(3 of Hayes/Bojan/Burks/Bagley/Wiseman)will go a long way in settling on a proper rotation.

Now the one wrinkle in my thinking, is that Monty has said it takes 30 games to see what he's got(paraphrasing), so perhaps my timeline is off.

[Canadafan]

It doesn't hurt to go into training camp and see how some of the young guys look. Did Livers, Hayes, Bagley, or Wiseman take a noticeable step forward? If not, I'm not sure we have any type of "overload" at all. Just guys who are outside of a 10 man rotation looking in.

Duren(29)/Bagley(19)(or Wiseman)
Stew(29)/Harris(19)
Bojan(29)/Ausar(19)
Ivey(33)/Burks(15)
Cade(33)/Morris(15)

I don't want to trade away "better" players just so there are rotation spots for guys. Screw handing anything to anyone at this point make them beat people out if they want to play. If you coddle them too much you'll end up with more Killians.

This lineup is flexible too. If Sasser earns a spot but Ausar isn't as ready move Burks to SG... or if Harris is the weakest rotation player and someone else is pushing, move Harris out of the rotation. Let people battle it out for the right to play don't trade people away just to make things easy on people.

Love all the shooting we're gonna have. This lineup looks about right
Trading some of our vet expirings or Wiseman and Hayes who are essentially expirings makes most sense. Hope for the right deal to come along to add to our main 5 young core

[chrbal]

It’s clear we need to deal Killian, he’s PG3, and that’s not even accounting for Ivey and Sasser. He likely won’t play much if at all.

Thing is, does anyone else in the NBA want to give Killian minutes? We aren’t going to pay to unload him, I assume, but who takes him for free? That requires 7 million, a roster spot, and (presumably) some guard minutes available.

I’d gladly trade him into cap space to avoid any

Charlotte collects project shooting guards like we collect bigs. It wouldn’t be a great return, but moving Hayes is addition by subtraction at this point.

Washington should take a flier on him just to see if there’s anything there, but we’re not a great improvement for Wright and would probably have to add value to make it happen.

Other than that, I have no idea

[Spider156]

Just like that Harrell is out with an injury. 76ers now need a new big man to make it into the top 4 in the East, need depth. This is how we are going to be able to trade Bagley or Wiseman.

[NYPiston]

It doesn't hurt to go into training camp and see how some of the young guys look. Did Livers, Hayes, Bagley, or Wiseman take a noticeable step forward? If not, I'm not sure we have any type of "overload" at all. Just guys who are outside of a 10 man rotation looking in.

Duren(29)/Bagley(19)(or Wiseman)
Stew(29)/Harris(19)
Bojan(29)/Ausar(19)
Ivey(33)/Burks(15)
Cade(33)/Morris(15)

I don't want to trade away "better" players just so there are rotation spots for guys. Screw handing anything to anyone at this point make them beat people out if they want to play. If you coddle them too much you'll end up with more Killians.

This lineup is flexible too. If Sasser earns a spot but Ausar isn't as ready move Burks to SG... or if Harris is the weakest rotation player and someone else is pushing, move Harris out of the rotation. Let people battle it out for the right to play don't trade people away just to make things easy on people.

Bagley and Wiseman are guaranteed significant minutes, they are firmly entrenched in that 10 man rotation unless something changes drastically.
Cade, Ivey, Bojan, Stewart, Duren, Morris, Burks, Thompson, Bagley, Wiseman. That is the clear top 10 rotation as of now. I don't see any of those guys falling out of the rotation, do you agree?

It's always good to have depth because injuries/load management happen all the time but as the roster stands now, guys like Hayes, Harris and Livers are the 11th-13th men and Sasser likely G League bound. It's kind of a waste to have Hayes at the end of the bench and I can't see Harris doing glorified mop up duty/being a 3rd string guy. Livers, to me, is barely passable as an NBA player but they do seem to like him so he'll need to find some minutes somewhere as well.

It's interesting, the Pistons don't have any high end NBA players as of now or arguably any proven above average starters depending on what one thinks of Bojan but there's a lot of NBA quality players on the roster.

[kptn]

Fans are quite impatient it’s pretty annoying if you ask me.
1. Let the kids play and see who makes the jump first or who gets hurt
2. Let the veterans play to gain trade value to sign a contract next summer
3. Let the REST OF THE LEAGUE play and find out who gets hurt and what teams will need from there
4. Let Cade/Monte/Monty orchestrate the offense and see who actually fits the system Monty is trying to implement

Exactly this.

There is absolutely no reason to rush anything now, before we see how everything meshes and which opportunities will arise.

Heck, training camp has not started yet and we already have the first injury news (Harrell out in PHI). There will be plenty more between now and the trade deadline. Im am perfectly happy to wait until the right opportunity presents itself instead of making a trade just for the sake of making a trade. We do not need to call anyone. Wait for other teams to come calling while desperate.

Here is a little time warp: Some GSW-Fans were demanding an upgrade at PF at the start of the 14/15 Season (quite like what i hear now from Pistons fans). The thinking was, that that 2nd round pick in his 3rd year would not cut it as a starter. I remember beeing ridiculed in my fantasy league that year using a late round flier on him. 3 months later those voices vansished and everyone was glad they did not bring in an aging Pau Gasol or someone like PJ Tucker in and spoil the development of Draymond. Green was already 24 by then, which is way older than most of the players that are currently deemed as busts on our team. Sometimes all ti takes ist time and replacing an mediocre/OK Coach with a better one (Jackson --> Kerr, Casey --> Monty).

If just one player out of the foursome of Stewart, Livers, Bagley and Wiseman can kickstart his career for Monty just like Draymond did under Steve Kerr and be a decent starter, 2 years from now it doesn't matter if the other 3 are busts. Nor if we spent 40 Mil on them this season. Same goes for Hayes, if he can improve into a prime Marcus Smart or Pat Beverly type of guy this year. The list of players that take a little longer or a different environment to develop and are prematurely traded is a long one. Wether it's Jermaine O'Neal, Khris Middleton, Domatos Sabonis or Ben Wallace. Ti buzild a winner, you have to be on the receivin end of this not giving them away.

Another example: Of course MIL hit the jackpot with their Giannis-pick. No one knew that this greek kid would ever be that good. But they would have not won a chip with Giannis without being gifted both Middleton and Brook Lopez for next to nothing. Not overpaying for a decent big like Capela or Randle that year in FA and instead taking a flyer on Lopez was a key move for them.

[Canadafan]

^^^^that's why I'd prefer holding onto Wiseman and Hayes. I'm still blindly hopeful Hayes can be something for us. Maybe him and Morris off the bench together can get some chemistry.
I believe by deadline we use our expiring vets to add to our young main c of Cade Ivey Ausar Stew Duren. Monte is still young enough at 28 to keep around for awhile. Hayes Livers and Wiseman Bagley need to show improvement.
Burks Harris Bojan and 1sts need to be dangled for another piece.
Or to clear the glut we need to trade for my guy Tobias. Bojan Burks with Bagley or Wiseman for him. Clears our logjam. If they want to keep their capspace for 2024 then they take Wiseman instead of Bagley. Get 2 rotation guys as shooters in Burks and Bojan.

Cade Ivey Ausar Tobias Duren starters.
Monte Harris Stew Bagley bench.
Hayes Livers leftover.
Tobias is 31. Him and Harris would become $60million in expirings

[MortSahlfan]

I think I started a thread because of the issues you're talking about... Too many mediocre players, not enough top heavy guys. There's no reason for guys who can play to just sit down or be used as trade bait; which hurts everyone, especially those being develop. I'd love to trade multiple guys for one guy, but I don't see that happening.

[theBigLip]

Good posts from Spider and KPTN. A little patience and things will sort themselves out.

Also, I think Livers is going to surprise a lot of people on this board. IMHO, I think he’s closer to being a starter than he is being out of the rotation. Of course he must stay healthy this year.

[vege]

Good posts from Spider and KPTN. A little patience and things will sort themselves out.

Also, I think Livers is going to surprise a lot of people on this board. IMHO, I think he’s closer to being a starter than he is being out of the rotation. Of course he must stay healthy this year.

Yes, according to JEIII Livers is 2nd in PF rotation and I could see him starting for us, I have 0 faith in Stew being good as our starting PF.

Livers need to stay healthy tho, he has missed way too many games during his young career (he missed more than 50% of the games so far).

FWIW Livers started 33% of his games for us and since he's been drafted we've been downgrading the PF position, so that % could improve imo.

[catari11]

Neither Tobias nor Livers are serviceable PFs in this league. In addition, Tobias is defensively challenged. No need to bring him back to the Pistons. Livers unfortunately is unreliable given his injury history. Pistons must acquire a big time PF and they'll can seriously be competitive.

[whitehops]

Neither Tobias nor Livers are serviceable PFs in this league. In addition, Tobias is defensively challenged. No need to bring him back to the Pistons. Livers unfortunately is unreliable given his injury history. Pistons must acquire a big time PF and they'll can seriously be competitive.

i think it's okay to question that he's not worth his contract but not serviceable? he's started every game he's played in the last six seasons (443 games) and averaged 33.8 minutes a game. he's not a perfect player and isn't a #1 or 2 option offensively but you could do MUCH worse than having harris as your starting 4.

[theBigLip]

Neither Tobias nor Livers are serviceable PFs in this league. In addition, Tobias is defensively challenged. No need to bring him back to the Pistons. Livers unfortunately is unreliable given his injury history. Pistons must acquire a big time PF and they'll can seriously be competitive.

i think it's okay to question that he's not worth his contract but not serviceable? he's started every game he's played in the last six seasons (443 games) and averaged 33.8 minutes a game. he's not a perfect player and isn't a #1 or 2 option offensively but you could do MUCH worse than having harris as your starting 4.

Sorry Catarina, but not “serviceable” is not accurate. Maybe bad fit? Maybe health risk? But Tobias is a bonafide starter in the league. And Livers (if healthy), is easily rotation quality if not a starter.