Teachable or Talent?

[Kalamazoo317]

So we know we're bad. Not like Bad Boys, just like bad at basketball boys. That part's inarguable. But here's the important question:

Are we made more because we lack talent or more because we lack development? We're all about potential and developing what we have. Cool. Do we have players with the actual skill sets we need and they're just not executing and have bad habits? Or do we lack enough actual raw talent?

In reality it's probably both, but rather tahn just dreaming of bringing in more developed talent through trades or the drafts, we could also talk more specifically about development.

So where do we need to develop? Are there any habits players can change that we could see progress in as Monty coaches them up?

Better shooting and fewer turnovers are obvious. So what's less obvious, especially to the less trained eye like mine?

1. One thing I've noticed, though I don't do film breakdowns or anything, so smarter folks than I should chime in: we don't seem to set very good screens. Our bigs seem like they always either screen too hard and get called for a foul or slip the screen right away and cut to the basket. Sometimes that results in a nice roll that Cade hits them on and they get a look inside. It never seems to result in a quality shot for the person they're screening for. Is that just poor screening, a poor job by the ball handlers of using the screens, or a little of both? It just seems like other teams do this a lot better

2. Off ball movement giving passing angles. It seems like when Cade gets swarmed, even if he's on the floor with "spacers" there often just aren't good passing lanes for him and the passes go at awkward angles or get tipped or move slowly enough due to the angle that the defense has plenty of time to recover. We should be able to take advantage of the attention Cade gets, but it doesn't seem like we do, and I'm not sure that's just due to not having enough shooting with him. I don't think there are good passing angles either.

3. Dynamic ball handling. It doesn't seem like we have many players (if any) that can really break down a defense with their ball handling. That used to be a thing all the time when I was growing up watching basketball in the 90s and players like Kyrie still make a living with this. Sasser has a decent stepback and I've seen Cade flash this, but only like 1% of the time. Ivey is fast, but doesn't seem super shifty or dynamic.

4. Finishing. We don't seem to finish well at the hoop, especially with shot blockers around. Our players seem to go right at shot blockers and get stuffed more often than not. And we also don't seem to consistently finish through contact in a way that draws fouls. This has long been a criticism of Cade, but it seems to be true for most of the team. There's a reason we suffer the biggest foul disparity in the league. (Not sure if this one is really habits or a talent thing, but seems like we need to learn and practice more dynamic finishing angles as a team).

Do any of y'all share these observations or have any notes to add? Anything else stand out to you that would qualify as "bad habits" we could theoretically just internally improve at without necessarily getting more talented?

[ComboGuardCity]

Bad at Basketball boys is what we should really describe 2009 to present. ESPN should pick that up

Bad Boys —> Teal Era —> Going to Work —> Bad at Basketball Boys

[Kalamazoo317]

Another one that came to mind:

1. Poor dribbling decisions: I'm talking about not dribbling away from pressure, not being mindful of players coming up behind you, giving up the dribble too fast without having any immediate passing plans and then looking up and realizing there's no good lane for passing, doing that hop thing during dribbles that gets called as a travel half the time, and the capital crime of jumping up to pass.

[Absolutia]

I agree with all the points that have been made in the OP. All of those issues will of course could be - if not created by - then certainly compounded by a confidence issue. These young players look dispirited.

I don't think we have a bad roster and we shouldn't be performing like this. We do have to rememeber that the Toronto game was just one game, but there is no denying that we are in a crisis.

[Kalamazoo317]

I agree with all the points that have been made in the OP. All of those issues will of course could be - if not created by - then certainly compounded by a confidence issue. These young players look dispirited.

I don't think we have a bad roster and we shouldn't be performing like this. We do have to rememeber that the Toronto game was just one game, but there is no denying that we are in a crisis.

You reminded me of one I thought of and forgot from last night: Hesitating on open jumpers. The offense isn't going to look crisp if our shooters aren't confident in their shots. The window for "open" shots in the NBA closes fast and I can understand occasionally wanting to pump fake and put it on the floor, but we just do too much of that. We need our shooters to be confident enough to let it fly over outstretched arms of closing defenders. It seems like we often only want to even take outside shots when we're wide wide open (and brick the majority of those anyway) while on the other side opposing players are nailing shots with defenders right on them. It's frustrating, but I think not having the confidence to just let it fly is a big part of it.

[whitehops]

weaver has created a terrible environment for players to develop imo. he's done well in getting hard-working players but he's consistently acquired low bball-IQ players and putting a few of those guys on the court at the same time makes it hard to play competitive basketball.

young players need time to learn how to actually play nba basketball and develop the skills required. you can usually handle having one or two of them in your rotation but when your entire rotation is made up of guys still growing the team is going to look like a JV squad.

[whitehops]

1. One thing I've noticed, though I don't do film breakdowns or anything, so smarter folks than I should chime in: we don't seem to set very good screens. Our bigs seem like they always either screen too hard and get called for a foul or slip the screen right away and cut to the basket. Sometimes that results in a nice roll that Cade hits them on and they get a look inside. It never seems to result in a quality shot for the person they're screening for. Is that just poor screening, a poor job by the ball handlers of using the screens, or a little of both? It just seems like other teams do this a lot better

it's not necessarily the quality of the screen (a lot of screens are diversions) but the decisions the bigs make after setting screens are less than optimal. whether they don't roll hard to the rim or don't pop (in stewart's case) they're often in no man's land which does nothing but help the defense.

[NYPiston]

Did you guys see what Cade said, very bluntly I might add, about them being bad and the effort level being unacceptable?
First of all, good on him (somebody, FINALLY) calling this out. It makes me glad that Cade actually cares.
Second, Cade himself needs to be better as well but it's hard to put much blame on him when he's the only one who can make things happen out there.

I said this yesterday or was it a few days ago? This isn't just about losing, it's the way they're losing. It seems like they hang around for a little while yesterday notwithstanding then they fold every single time once the other team applies pressure to them. One can call this growing pains but at some point they need to put up some resistance and fight back. It seems like they lose their will the moment the opposition punches them in the mouth and that points to a serious culture issue.

I pray that the abomination of a game yesterday and Cade subsequently calling them out will be somewhat of a turning point going forward because what we're seeing is unacceptable and this is running the risk of the ship sinking completely and this regime drowning as a result.

[Invictus88]

1. One thing I've noticed, though I don't do film breakdowns or anything, so smarter folks than I should chime in: we don't seem to set very good screens. Our bigs seem like they always either screen too hard and get called for a foul or slip the screen right away and cut to the basket. Sometimes that results in a nice roll that Cade hits them on and they get a look inside. It never seems to result in a quality shot for the person they're screening for. Is that just poor screening, a poor job by the ball handlers of using the screens, or a little of both? It just seems like other teams do this a lot better

it's not necessarily the quality of the screen (a lot of screens are diversions) but the decisions the bigs make after setting screens are less than optimal. whether they don't roll hard to the rim or don't pop (in stewart's case) they're often in no man's land which does nothing but help the defense.

I agree with the original quote. Our bigs are largely just going through the motions. Defenders don't alter their course because they aren't afraid of contact. They aren't afraid of contact because our bigs never create it.

After is also a problem because players like Stewart can't perform all of the options off of a pick and roll. There is a reason you don't do pick and rolls with 2 guards: becsuse the roller poses almost no immediate threat close to the basket. This is Isaiah Stewart.

A roller shouldn't need to pause and make a bunch of pump fakes or use a hook shoot to get the ball to the hoop. A roller should be going to the rim hard because they have a significant advantage while the defense is switching. A roller should be able to get dunks most of the time because it should be very hard for the defender to contest the roll if it gets the basketball.

Isaiah Stewart is not good as a pick and roll option because he. can. not. play. above. the. rim.

The fact that we have been starting Kevin Knox - a player we signed off the street 10 days ago is a GIANT neon sign that our experiments at the 4 position have completely failed. Less than a quarter of a season in.

1. Dump Wiseman to the G League
2. Sign a player off the G League with size who can rebound and set picks and is an actual threat to dunk a basketball. Average defense would be a plus. No shooting required. If he does the above he is better than every big not named Duren.
3. Trade anyone who isn't Cunningham, Duren or Ausar to get a viable 4.
4. It's clear at this point Ivey has zero defensive instincts and he's bad at finishing. His speed is fooling nobody. He doesn't have ball skills to do anything else. If his outside shot isn't falling he's dead in the water.
5. Relegate Stewart to the bench. Permanently. Congrats. We signed bench fodder to 15 mill a season. Hope everyone is happy who wanted this.
6. If Bojan or Livers are close to returning get them in here. If they aren't then trade them for anyone who can shoot. Give Cade *someone* to shoot the basketball not named Alec Burks (who falls off the planet performance-wise on offense 50% of the time)

Sorry for the rant. Nevermind. We are 2-12. Not sorry.

[Canadafan]

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[Snakebites]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

[Snakebites]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

[joedumars1]

Cade calling out the team either they rally or say f you lol. God I hope it’s not f u

[whitehops]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

Cade has the hardest work load that I’ve seen in a while in the NBA.

It’s like Scottie playing with the bench but for 40 minutes instead of staggered minutes. Good grief.

this was from the raps game thread. he's been bad but his environment is severely hindering what he can do as a player.

[vege]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

Cade has the hardest work load that I’ve seen in a while in the NBA.

It’s like Scottie playing with the bench but for 40 minutes instead of staggered minutes. Good grief.

this was from the raps game thread. he's been bad but his environment is severely hindering what he can do as a player.

Even Toronto fans can see this, but a lot of Detroit fans refuse to acknowledge Cade's situation.

Cade is not innocent, he got to be better, but the situation he was put in is just impossible.

I mean, he did a hell of a play, and got Stewart a free dunk, and Stewart was blocked by the rim.

[Snakebites]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

Cade has the hardest work load that I’ve seen in a while in the NBA.

It’s like Scottie playing with the bench but for 40 minutes instead of staggered minutes. Good grief.

this was from the raps game thread. he's been bad but his environment is severely hindering what he can do as a player.

A lot of different people involved here can be described as being in a bad situation.

Collectively they ARE the bad situation.

The roster is not ideally suited to Cade's needs as an offensive player. That doesn't give him a pass for careless mistakes and bad defense.

[Kalamazoo317]

1. One thing I've noticed, though I don't do film breakdowns or anything, so smarter folks than I should chime in: we don't seem to set very good screens. Our bigs seem like they always either screen too hard and get called for a foul or slip the screen right away and cut to the basket. Sometimes that results in a nice roll that Cade hits them on and they get a look inside. It never seems to result in a quality shot for the person they're screening for. Is that just poor screening, a poor job by the ball handlers of using the screens, or a little of both? It just seems like other teams do this a lot better

it's not necessarily the quality of the screen (a lot of screens are diversions) but the decisions the bigs make after setting screens are less than optimal. whether they don't roll hard to the rim or don't pop (in stewart's case) they're often in no man's land which does nothing but help the defense.

I don't disagree that the decisions are suboptimal, but isn't the purpose of a screen, by default, to give the ball handler room to operate? I don't feel like our screens ever really create any space. Even if they're diversions, seems like they'd work better if they have the appearance of the real thing.

[HumbleRen]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

Cade has the hardest work load that I’ve seen in a while in the NBA.

It’s like Scottie playing with the bench but for 40 minutes instead of staggered minutes. Good grief.

this was from the raps game thread. he's been bad but his environment is severely hindering what he can do as a player.

A lot of different people involved here can be described as being in a bad situation.

Collectively they ARE the bad situation.

The roster is not ideally suited to Cade's needs as an offensive player. That doesn't give him a pass for careless mistakes and bad defense.

As an outsider looking in, I think 2 things are true of this situation. This roster is not suited for Cade's skillsets at all but Cade himself is also miscast as a heliocentric type player/franchise leading player.

Instead of getting players who solely compliment Cade, you get players who can be on ball threats themselves or just players who have a good feel for the game period.

You guys know way more than me though so I'll defer to yall.

[Kalamazoo317]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

Cade has the hardest work load that I’ve seen in a while in the NBA.

It’s like Scottie playing with the bench but for 40 minutes instead of staggered minutes. Good grief.

this was from the raps game thread. he's been bad but his environment is severely hindering what he can do as a player.

A lot of different people involved here can be described as being in a bad situation.

Collectively they ARE the bad situation.

The roster is not ideally suited to Cade's needs as an offensive player. That doesn't give him a pass for careless mistakes and bad defense.

Or for how poorly he's shot the ball. Or for how he fails to draw fouls/play through contact at the rim.

Cade has skills and I believe in him, but it's not like he's doing an amazing job of execution and just being dragged down by the rest of the roster. That "Cade needs a new team" guy needs a new thing to do with his time. Cade needs to be part of a new level of energy and execution for *this* team.

[NYPiston]

Yeah, there's this weird trend on social media about how Cade needs a new team and we're doing him a disservice.

Guy has been bad.

They ARE doing him a disservice. He's forced into playing the biggest usage role in the ENTIRE league (insanity, right?) due, partly to injuries, but also because of Weaver's inability to provide him support. Cade needs to be better for sure but there's maybe 5 players in the league that could survive playing his role with the lack of support players he has. It's just a crazy burden to put on a young guy.