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Not a comparison of who's better, but a comparison of who scores the ball more efficiently on different play types. As was mentioned in a previous post, Ivey is 5th in the league in ISO efficiency.

Top 10 Isolation Scorers:
1. Kawhi Leonard
2. Dejounte Murray
3. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
4. Stephen Curry
5. Jaden Ivey
6. Tyrese Haliburton
7. Nikola Jokic
8. James Harden
9. Luka Doncic
10. Jalen Williams

PPP = Points Scored Per Possession

Isolation Scoring: Cade 0.77 PPP : Ivey 1.15 PPP
Handoff Scoring: Cade 0.91 PPP : Ivey 1.10 PPP
Transition Scoring: Cade 1.00 PPP : Ivey 1.13 PPP
Off Ball Cuts Scoring: Cade 1.50 PPP : Ivey 1.45 PPP
Pick & Roll Ball Handler Scoring: Cade 0.91 PPP : 0.83 Ivey PPP
Spot Up Scoring: Cade 0.99 PPP : Ivey 0.81 PPP

Conclusions. Ivey should play with the ball in his hands more, ideally with enough shooters to space the floor. Not only because Ivey is looking great in ISO but also because Cade is a better catch and shoot guy. Cade is more efficient in the pick and roll game likely also in part because he's gotten a ton of them, where Ivey is better on hand offs likely because he can get that momentum going before his teammates hands off the ball and he can better use his quickness to his advantage in that situation.

Moving forward more pick and rolls for Cade.

More ISO's and handoffs for for Ivey. Ivey has only gotten about 1.3 ISOs per game which was just enough to hit the 60 total minimum to qualify for that top 10 list above. A lot of the other guys on the list are getting a bunch of ISOs per game.

I mean, I think it’s pretty clear we aren’t running the offense we should be.

Cade isn’t a particularly efficient scorer in most situations. He’s particularly abysmal as an iso scorer.

Thats a bummer to see.

Snakebites wrote:Cade isn’t a particularly efficient scorer in most situations. He’s particularly abysmal as an iso scorer.

Thats a bummer to see.

Out of 60+ players that qualified with at least 60 ISO possessions this year, he's in like the 30th percentile which isn't horrible but he's below average for sure. Largely because he isn't good at finishing inside 5 ft (gets blocked a ton at the rim isn't an explosive athlete) and he isn't good at drawing fouls and getting to the line. He's petty solid at the mid range pull up in ISO but we all know that analytics don't love mid range shots in general.

It's also because of how the defense often collapses on Cade and over helps from corner three point shooters to really clog that lane.

We do also know that Cade has been game planned for a lot more if Ivey keeps this up and ends up getting more games leading the way in scoring I'm sure teams will start to change their focus a bit more to stop what Ivey is doing which could help ease things on Cade a bit.

Ivey has been killing it lately. He's probably a 18-20 ppg player this year without Monty holding him back for so long.

If those are season averages there are a lot of factors to consider here. I'd start with Cade being a notoriously slow starter. He's looked kinda bad at the start of each season, but eventually rounds into something worth getting excited over. Every injury feels like a major setback though.

Ivey has certainly been misused, but was looking promising last season and he's clearly got some physical tools.

Right now Cade looks a LOT like Jerami Grant. Without the size or defense. Even when he's scoring efficiently and looking good, the rest of the offense grinds to a halt. He's the ball-stopper.

Ivey is just quicker to make decisions and attack. Sometimes that results in stupid TO's, but when he's aggressive there are not many guys who can stay in front of him. If he can keep making that outside shot it's going to really open up his game.

Teams also game plan for Cade and send are always throwing a shadow defender his way. Couple that with the offense literally being iso Cade, his numbers are going to be low. Cade is good off ball and 1 on 1. It’s up to Monty to create an offense playing to both Ivey and Cade‘s strengths

ComboGuardCity wrote:Teams also game plan for Cade and send are always throwing a shadow defender his way. Couple that with the offense literally being iso Cade, his numbers are going to be low. Cade is good off ball and 1 on 1. It’s up to Monty to create an offense playing to both Ivey and Cade‘s strengths

We’re screwed then, aren’t we?

It's a limited sample size, but I think it's becoming clear that Ivey is the more efficient scorer and outside shooter at this stage. I don't see it as an Ivey vs Cade debate though; the hope would be that their different skillsets and styles of play can complement each other.

It's even more damning seeing those stats and knowing that Ivey lost a starter position and so many minutes this season to Killian Frickin Hayes.

Cade is a 3. He could be the second coming of Grant Hill if we play to his strengths.
Ivey is a 2. He could be Dwyane Wade-lite if we play to his strengths.
What's missing is a 1, someone to run the offense, so they can build up their skills for their roles.
A wing with a handle is not necessarily a PG, no matter how much you want to make him so.

Mr Peanut wrote:It's a limited sample size, but I think it's becoming clear that Ivey is the more efficient scorer and outside shooter at this stage. I don't see it as an Ivey vs Cade debate though; the hope would be that their different skillsets and styles of play can complement each other.

It's even more damning seeing those stats and knowing that Ivey lost a starter position and so many minutes this season to Killian Frickin Hayes.

Coaches have been fired for far less crimes before, yet the FO/owner decided to make him the highest paid coach when he never wanted to come here. Giving someone that much power...they have no pressure at all hence why we saw so much errors and goofiness

Ivey's primary strength is his burst. Cade's primary strength is his versatility. It really doesn't seem that hard to run an offense that puts them both in positions to maximize those strengths. You just need some floor spacers around them.

Ivey's improvement at Rim FG%

Wiseman’s on there as “improved”, too. So yeah, probably nonsense.

Ivey’s confidence with his 3 does look better, though.

tmorgan wrote:Wiseman’s on there as “improved”, too. So yeah, probably nonsense.

Ivey’s confidence with his 3 does look better, though.

To be clear, you're saying the numbers aren't true? What's nonsense?

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Wiseman was often trying to do too much around the rim last year its no surprise he's been much better around the rim this year where its mostly dunks and easier finishes we've barely thrown it down to him and tried to let him go to work against an established defender with his back to the basket this season.

Ivey I feel like has gotten better when going full speed at the basket maybe slowing that last step just a bit so he's got better control. His rookie season I felt like he made a ton of great fast moves to the run and was going to fast and bricked the lay ins.

It's certainly encouraging to see two of our players on that list and none on the bad side.

DetroitSho wrote:

tmorgan wrote:Wiseman’s on there as “improved”, too. So yeah, probably nonsense.

Ivey’s confidence with his 3 does look better, though.

To be clear, you're saying the numbers aren't true? What's nonsense?

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Sample size noise, as Ivey hasn’t looked better at the rim to me. Still gets himself up in the air with nowhere to go far too often. Sure, he’s made a few more, but he has a lot of developing to do as a half court attacker.

bstein14 wrote:Wiseman was often trying to do too much around the rim last year its no surprise he's been much better around the rim this year where its mostly dunks and easier finishes we've barely thrown it down to him and tried to let him go to work against an established defender with his back to the basket this season.

Ivey I feel like has gotten better when going full speed at the basket maybe slowing that last step just a bit so he's got better control. His rookie season I felt like he made a ton of great fast moves to the run and was going to fast and bricked the lay ins.

It's certainly encouraging to see two of our players on that list and none on the bad side.

Please do not call Wiseman “one of our players”, even if he actually is. If we re-sign that doofus I’m gonna be super pissed. Get a real PF, give Stew some minutes at 4 and (mostly) 5, and let that big non-basketball player walk.

tmorgan wrote:

ComboGuardCity wrote:Teams also game plan for Cade and send are always throwing a shadow defender his way. Couple that with the offense literally being iso Cade, his numbers are going to be low. Cade is good off ball and 1 on 1. It’s up to Monty to create an offense playing to both Ivey and Cade‘s strengths

We’re screwed then, aren’t we?

Bingo. This team is going to totter under the weight of Monty's incompetence until Gores does the right thing (probably five seasons into his contract) and gets rid of him.

The Bucks fired Griffin this season because they had doubts about him, and now they're paying three coaches. Gores claims to be willing to do whatever it takes to make this team succeed, yet there have been not even whispers of Monty's job being at risk despite the unfathomably bad job he's done.

I'm not sure if it's properly appreciated just how bad Monty has been. Worst in the league, certainly. One of the worst in American pro sports right now. It's been BAD.

Ivey and Cade should swap roles

Ivey pg and Cade sg