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The rough start of the season(0-4) is now a distant memory. So how much have the Pistons improved? Direct comparison between year/since Jan 1st. Bolded=Improved number.(may not be improved position)

STATS SINCE JAN 1ST. 22 GAMES. (27% OF SEASON)

PPG-113.6(13th)-Jan1st-115.4(12th)
RPG-45.3(7th)-Jan1st-46.3(6th)
APG-26.0(16th)-Jan1st-26.1(19th)
BPG-5.0(13th)-Jan1st-4.9(16th)
SPG-7.8(21st)-Jan1st-9.0(7th)
TO-15.4(22nd)-Jan1st-14.9(23rd)
FG%-47%(13th)-Jan1st-47.5(13th)
3P%-36%(13th)-Jan1st-35.8%(20th)
FTA-20.7(25th)-Jan1st-20.9(21st)
PF-20.3(24th)-Jan1st-20.4(29th)
+/- +0.5(14th)-Jan1st-+5.2(8th)

DEFRTG-112.4(12th)-Jan1st-109.6(3rd)
OPPPIP-45.8(5th)-Jan1st-44.8(3rd)
OFFRTG-113.1(15th)-Jan1st-115.3(12th)
TS%-57.4(17th)-Jan1st-57.6(16th)
PACE-99.74(16th)-Jan1st-100.35(10th)
PIE-49.8(18th)-Jan1st-52.5(9th)

EDIT. One more stat.

FBP-18.5(2nd)-Jan1st-20.5(1st)

Team has really turned a corner since Jan 1st.

Great stuff and an excellent visualization of improvement. The boys are growing up!

With a 15-8 record during that period!

As you can see, the actual improvement is almost entirely defense. Offense is really about the same in almost every way.

There’s a bunch of reasons for that, but the big ones are:

1) Duren getting his head out of his ass
2) Most of Ivey’s minutes going to Ausar and Holland
3) Young team getting reps together

Theee’s other stuff, too, for sure. But for a team with a limited number of actually good defenders (Ausar and Stew), we’re doing quite well lately. Just gotta keep improving.

Duren just works better with an actual point of attack defender there. Ausar is that.

Kalamazoo317 wrote:Duren just works better with an actual point of attack defender there. Ausar is that.

Ausar and Duren have been amazing together. It works because Ausar is just like another former Piston, RIP. He is in constant motion, always making himself available, and it works like this;

Duren is Cades release valve, and Ausar is Durens release valve on offense. Its awesome to watch. Just got done rewatching both Bulls games(after three days, you can watch the game on league pass, so I always watch with the opposing teams announcers.) And their chemistry is on full display.

Ausar is going to be all-nba defense for basically his whole career, and that makes Duren a better defender, as Ausar guides the player right into the teeth of the defense.

Despite a few buzzer beater losses two games in a row, Pistons have been awesome in 2025.

zeebneeb wrote:

Kalamazoo317 wrote:Duren just works better with an actual point of attack defender there. Ausar is that.

Ausar and Duren have been amazing together. It works because Ausar is just like another former Piston, RIP. He is in constant motion, always making himself available, and it works like this;

Duren is Cades release valve, and Ausar is Durens release valve on offense. Its awesome to watch. Just got done rewatching both Bulls games(after three days, you can watch the game on league pass, so I always watch with the opposing teams announcers.) And their chemistry is on full display.

Ausar is going to be all-nba defense for basically his whole career, and that makes Duren a better defender, as Ausar guides the player right into the teeth of the defense.

Yeah, though I do worry how well that Cade/Duren/Ausar setup is going to work on offense against teams that aren't horrible at rim defense like the Bulls are.

Oh, we definitely need two killer offensive players to be any kind of contender with Cade-Ausar-Duren as a base. Beasley is dope but he’s definitely a bench shooter on a contender, first option for 12 minutes a game plus some time in the flow.

What can Ivey and Holland become is part of the question. But if we had, say, Book and Lauri somehow, we’d be a force to be reckoned with.

The team's growth over the course of the season has been very impressive. Since Ausar entered the starting lineup and got significant minutes we've gone 14-8, which is a 52 win season if you extrapolate to 82 games. Certain posters had a meltdown in the off-season at the idea of playing two non-outside shooters (Duren and Ausar) together, but JBB has made it work and our defense has really benefited.

When Ivey gets back and is matched up with Ausar on the Wings next to Cade it’s going to be special

vic wrote:When Ivey gets back and is matched up with Ausar on the Wings next to Cade it’s going to be special

This is where I'm at. I've been all over the map on a bunch of this.

"Don't draft Ivey, he won't fit with Cade."

"You can't start two non-shooters with Cade."

I was wrong on both, spectacularly so it appears. Ausar is just special. He has all the athleticism of Jordan, combined with the man defense of Bowen/Daniels/Rodman, as well as an extreme BBIQ, and court vision. It seems when you max out certain sliders, you lose something else, and thats shooting with Ausar. Trick is, it doesn't matter.

Ausar manufacturers so many points with steals, knock-aways, dunks, cutting, floaters, blocks, transition passing, insane man defense, it more then makes up for his inability to shoot, which if one day he does, well Holy hell.

Ivey also fits, because he was becoming not just a passable shooter, but a knockdown shooter.

30 games.

.409 on 5.2 attempts is an awesome percentage from three, from your off-guard. His last 19 games he was shooting. 430!

It also works, because Ivey and Cade play completely different games. Cade uses his strength, savvy, and ball-handling to get into the lane, where Ivey used his speed. This created huge issues for the defense. Cade starts worming his way to the basket, the double comes(the double always comes) so he kicks it out to Ivey, who you have to guard because he's a knockdown shooter, but problem is, you run out to him, he darts to the lane, amd yams it on your face.

These two were just starting to get it. when asshat broke his leg.

Now, good things come out of the bleakness. It has been discovered, much to everyones delight, that Ausar can also get his way into the lane, with the same high level of passing as Cade/Ivey, but also with so much force, he just dunks on people.

That means;

Three ball handlers. Three options to dive into the lane. Three options for offense generation. That is unheard of in a starting lineup. You have two of the quickest, and explosive guys in the league, as primary ball-handlers. Meanwhile, unstoppable Cade just sits back, and waits to score, or pass.

I cannot believe Ausars growth over the past 4 or so games. It has made the starting lineup, in my eyes, insane, save for one piece;

The PF spot.

Cade
Ivey
Ausar

Duren

If the Pistons, or if Holland becomes a beast, can slot another player there, I believe, the team is set, and ready to rock and roll. Just internal growth, maturation, and chemistry is needed for something truly special.

If Holland does also blossom, well, that would mean the Team would have 4 ball handlers, 2 superb defenders, and size. We'll see. Hes shown flashes, but if his shooting comes along, oh boy...

zeebneeb wrote:

vic wrote:When Ivey gets back and is matched up with Ausar on the Wings next to Cade it’s going to be special

This is where I'm at. I've been all over the map on a bunch of this.

"Don't draft Ivey, he won't fit with Cade."

"You can't start two non-shooters with Cade."

I was wrong on both, spectacularly so it appears. Ausar is just special. He has all the athleticism of Jordan, combined with the man defense of Bowen/Daniels/Rodman, as well as an extreme BBIQ, and court vision. It seems when you max out certain sliders, you lose something else, and thats shooting with Ausar. Trick is, it doesn't matter.

Ausar manufacturers so many points with steals, knock-aways, dunks, cutting, floaters, blocks, transition passing, insane man defense, it more then makes up for his inability to shoot, which if one day he does, well Holy hell.

Ivey also fits, because he was becoming not just a passable shooter, but a knockdown shooter.

30 games.

.409 on 5.2 attempts is an awesome percentage from three, from your off-guard. His last 19 games he was shooting. 430!

It also works, because Ivey and Cade play completely different games. Cade uses his strength, savvy, and ball-handling to get into the lane, where Ivey used his speed. This created huge issues for the defense. Cade starts worming his way to the basket, the double comes(the double always comes) so he kicks it out to Ivey, who you have to guard because he's a knockdown shooter, but problem is, you run out to him, he darts to the lane, amd yams it on your face.

These two were just starting to get it. when asshat broke his leg.

Now, good things come out of the bleakness. It has been discovered, much to everyones delight, that Ausar can also get his way into the lane, with the same high level of passing as Cade/Ivey, but also with so much force, he just dunks on people.

That means;

Three ball handlers. Three options to dive into the lane. Three options for offense generation. That is unheard of in a starting lineup. You have two of the quickest, and explosive guys in the league, as primary ball-handlers. Meanwhile, unstoppable Cade just sits back, and waits to score, or pass.

I cannot believe Ausars growth over the past 4 or so games. It has made the starting lineup, in my eyes, insane, save for one piece;

The PF spot.

Cade
Ivey
Ausar

Duren

If the Pistons, or if Holland becomes a beast, can slot another player there, I believe, the team is set, and ready to rock and roll. Just internal growth, maturation, and chemistry is needed for something truly special.

If Holland does also blossom, well, that would mean the Team would have 4 ball handlers, 2 superb defenders, and size. We'll see. Hes shown flashes, but if his shooting comes along, oh boy...

Shooting isn't the main issue. There's only one ball. Ivey is still a high usage ball hog. A low IQ one, at that. With the way Ausar has emerged, the last thing we should want is for him to revert back to standing in the corner because Ivey needs to dance with the ball. F that. Put Ivey on the bench. He and Beaseley can run it.

flow wrote:

zeebneeb wrote:

vic wrote:When Ivey gets back and is matched up with Ausar on the Wings next to Cade it’s going to be special

This is where I'm at. I've been all over the map on a bunch of this.

"Don't draft Ivey, he won't fit with Cade."

"You can't start two non-shooters with Cade."

I was wrong on both, spectacularly so it appears. Ausar is just special. He has all the athleticism of Jordan, combined with the man defense of Bowen/Daniels/Rodman, as well as an extreme BBIQ, and court vision. It seems when you max out certain sliders, you lose something else, and thats shooting with Ausar. Trick is, it doesn't matter.

Ausar manufacturers so many points with steals, knock-aways, dunks, cutting, floaters, blocks, transition passing, insane man defense, it more then makes up for his inability to shoot, which if one day he does, well Holy hell.

Ivey also fits, because he was becoming not just a passable shooter, but a knockdown shooter.

30 games.

.409 on 5.2 attempts is an awesome percentage from three, from your off-guard. His last 19 games he was shooting. 430!

It also works, because Ivey and Cade play completely different games. Cade uses his strength, savvy, and ball-handling to get into the lane, where Ivey used his speed. This created huge issues for the defense. Cade starts worming his way to the basket, the double comes(the double always comes) so he kicks it out to Ivey, who you have to guard because he's a knockdown shooter, but problem is, you run out to him, he darts to the lane, amd yams it on your face.

These two were just starting to get it. when asshat broke his leg.

Now, good things come out of the bleakness. It has been discovered, much to everyones delight, that Ausar can also get his way into the lane, with the same high level of passing as Cade/Ivey, but also with so much force, he just dunks on people.

That means;

Three ball handlers. Three options to dive into the lane. Three options for offense generation. That is unheard of in a starting lineup. You have two of the quickest, and explosive guys in the league, as primary ball-handlers. Meanwhile, unstoppable Cade just sits back, and waits to score, or pass.

I cannot believe Ausars growth over the past 4 or so games. It has made the starting lineup, in my eyes, insane, save for one piece;

The PF spot.

Cade
Ivey
Ausar

Duren

If the Pistons, or if Holland becomes a beast, can slot another player there, I believe, the team is set, and ready to rock and roll. Just internal growth, maturation, and chemistry is needed for something truly special.

If Holland does also blossom, well, that would mean the Team would have 4 ball handlers, 2 superb defenders, and size. We'll see. Hes shown flashes, but if his shooting comes along, oh boy...

Shooting isn't the main issue. There's only one ball. Ivey is still a high usage ball hog. A low IQ one, at that. With the way Ausar has emerged, the last thing we should want is for him to revert back to standing in the corner because Ivey needs to dance with the ball. F that. Put Ivey on the bench. He and Beaseley can run it.

Imagine playing the majority of your minutes with the guy that holds the ball the 4th most in the entire league, you yourself not being in the top 40 players in usage, still averaging 4 apg......and being reduced to a high usage ballhog. FFS...

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Still don’t know about Ivey. I like a lot of what he does, for sure, and the improved shooting is a big deal.

Be real though — if we need to trade for an all-star to pair with Cade (an offensive all-star that is… I do think Ausar can be an all-star, just not that type), someone at the 2 or 4 that plays acceptable defense and gets buckets, we need ammo to do it. It looks like the days of our own draft picks being super valuable is over, so the value has to come from somewhere. Right now, the guys that fit that bill and could potentially be expendable are Ivey and Holland. Best case scenario, they both improve like crazy, and it’s not really necessary, although it’ll leave us a little small overall. More likely, someone gets moved for a better fit.

Just saying, don’t get too attached to anyone besides Cade, and probably Ausar. Things happen.

tmorgan wrote:Still don’t know about Ivey. I like a lot of what he does, for sure, and the improved shooting is a big deal.

Be real though — if we need to trade for an all-star to pair with Cade (an offensive all-star that is… I do think Ausar can be an all-star, just not that type), someone at the 2 or 4 that plays acceptable defense and gets buckets, we need ammo to do it. It looks like the days of our own draft picks being super valuable is over, so the value has to come from somewhere. Right now, the guys that fit that bill and could potentially be expendable are Ivey and Holland. Best case scenario, they both improve like crazy, and it’s not really necessary, although it’ll leave us a little small overall. More likely, someone gets moved for a better fit.

Just saying, don’t get too attached to anyone besides Cade, and probably Ausar. Things happen.

How much return are you getting for a high usage ball hog, though? Is kinda my point. I actually agree with you in that Lauri and KD are the two guys I have my sights set on for this off-season. Ivey very well might be a piece that has to move to make it happen, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I get it. It's just weird the constant devaluing of the guy, all while expecting anything decent for him in trade.

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DetroitSho wrote:

tmorgan wrote:Still don’t know about Ivey. I like a lot of what he does, for sure, and the improved shooting is a big deal.

Be real though — if we need to trade for an all-star to pair with Cade (an offensive all-star that is… I do think Ausar can be an all-star, just not that type), someone at the 2 or 4 that plays acceptable defense and gets buckets, we need ammo to do it. It looks like the days of our own draft picks being super valuable is over, so the value has to come from somewhere. Right now, the guys that fit that bill and could potentially be expendable are Ivey and Holland. Best case scenario, they both improve like crazy, and it’s not really necessary, although it’ll leave us a little small overall. More likely, someone gets moved for a better fit.

Just saying, don’t get too attached to anyone besides Cade, and probably Ausar. Things happen.

How much return are you getting for a high usage ball hog, though? Is kinda my point. I actually agree with you in that Lauri and KD are the two guys I have my sights set on for this off-season. Ivey very well might be a piece that has to move to make it happen, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I get it. It's just weird the constant devaluing of the guy, all while expecting anything decent for him in trade.

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I don’t see it as de-valuing Ivey — I see it as a realistic evaluation of his skills, production, and fit. It’s not like he’s the only hyper-athletic dude in the league that plays ishtty defense, but it’s still frustrating. His offense is coming along well, no doubt, and the fit with Cade has gone from awful to acceptable, but it still isn’t great. In my eyes (which has no real value beyond stating my opinion), if someone has to go in a trade for a real robin, he’s the one.

From what we've seen thus far, I think its safe to say Ivey is more of a #3 guy than a #2 guy.

Cade: Legit #1
#2 option efficient 20 PPG player who hopefully also plays decent defense ???????
Ivey: Best suited as a #3 option, catch and shoot open looks, transition, and some on the ball creating for others.
Ausar: Elite defender, but 4th starter on offense guy on offense on a good playoff team.
Duren: Rim runner, improving defense, lob threat, etc.

I know in the short term Tobias is making $26 million per year, but we need to find a long term good starting SF/PF who can fit the bill as our long term #2 guy. Unless Ivey, Holland 2 or Ausar surprise me by jumping up to a legit efficient 20 PPG player as a #2.

tmorgan wrote:

DetroitSho wrote:

tmorgan wrote:Still don’t know about Ivey. I like a lot of what he does, for sure, and the improved shooting is a big deal.

Be real though — if we need to trade for an all-star to pair with Cade (an offensive all-star that is… I do think Ausar can be an all-star, just not that type), someone at the 2 or 4 that plays acceptable defense and gets buckets, we need ammo to do it. It looks like the days of our own draft picks being super valuable is over, so the value has to come from somewhere. Right now, the guys that fit that bill and could potentially be expendable are Ivey and Holland. Best case scenario, they both improve like crazy, and it’s not really necessary, although it’ll leave us a little small overall. More likely, someone gets moved for a better fit.

Just saying, don’t get too attached to anyone besides Cade, and probably Ausar. Things happen.

How much return are you getting for a high usage ball hog, though? Is kinda my point. I actually agree with you in that Lauri and KD are the two guys I have my sights set on for this off-season. Ivey very well might be a piece that has to move to make it happen, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I get it. It's just weird the constant devaluing of the guy, all while expecting anything decent for him in trade.

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I don’t see it as de-valuing Ivey — I see it as a realistic evaluation of his skills, production, and fit. It’s not like he’s the only hyper-athletic dude in the league that plays ishtty defense, but it’s still frustrating. His offense is coming along well, no doubt, and the fit with Cade has gone from awful to acceptable, but it still isn’t great. In my eyes (which has no real value beyond stating my opinion), if someone has to go in a trade for a real robin, he’s the one.

Reducing him to a high usage ball hog ain't devaluing him? Also, with the defense, he's the only one who hasn't had the benefit of playing with this version of Ausar and the improved version of Tobias and Duren.

He's not the type to single handedly improve a defense of mediocre defense the way Ausar is. But he sho wasn't dragging down a group of great defenders.

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DetroitSho wrote:

tmorgan wrote:

DetroitSho wrote:How much return are you getting for a high usage ball hog, though? Is kinda my point. I actually agree with you in that Lauri and KD are the two guys I have my sights set on for this off-season. Ivey very well might be a piece that has to move to make it happen, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I get it. It's just weird the constant devaluing of the guy, all while expecting anything decent for him in trade.

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I don’t see it as de-valuing Ivey — I see it as a realistic evaluation of his skills, production, and fit. It’s not like he’s the only hyper-athletic dude in the league that plays ishtty defense, but it’s still frustrating. His offense is coming along well, no doubt, and the fit with Cade has gone from awful to acceptable, but it still isn’t great. In my eyes (which has no real value beyond stating my opinion), if someone has to go in a trade for a real robin, he’s the one.

Reducing him to a high usage ball hog ain't devaluing him? Also, with the defense, he's the only one who hasn't had the benefit of playing with this version of Ausar and the improved version of Tobias and Duren.

He's not the type to single handedly improve a defense of mediocre defense the way Ausar is. But he sho wasn't dragging down a group of great defenders.

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Who do you think you’re responding to, Sho? I never called Ivey a high-usage ball hog.

As for playing with Ausar, sure… but that just means if we’re going to do it, we’ll have to sit a different shooter, THJ. I’m not relying on any kind of stats at all to call Ivey a bad defender, by the way. You just watch him get beat off the dribble, over-commit for steals, wander a bit off-ball — these are correctable problems for someone with his athletic ability.

And yeah, he was dragging down a group of guys that weren’t good to begin with. How is that better? He, along with Duren, were the big issues in the starting lineup early this year. Duren has improved somewhat, maybe Ivey would have, too. But I’m just stating what we’ve seen, not predicting the future.