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Pelicans expecting to hire Joe Dumars as top guy.


It'll be interesting to see how he does with a 2nd chance. From 2001 to 2004 was probably still the best stretch of any GM ever from losing superstar Grant Hill in FA his first summer as GM to becoming champs soon after.

It'll also be really interesting to see what he does with some of the talent he has will he try to build around Zion or get assets and do a full rebuild around younger guys like Herb Jones (Pistons DNA type player for sure) and Trey Murphy III.


Also Trajan Langdon got this job just at the right moment he'd almost certainly be out of a job right now as well down in New Orleans. Some luck for him for sure.

I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Snakebites wrote:I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the second half of his tenure, when he was hamstrung by the sale of the team, was more indicative of his skills as an executive?

GreekAlex wrote:

Snakebites wrote:I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the second half of his tenure, when he was hamstrung by the sale of the team, was more indicative of his skills as an executive?

Both longer and more recent.

You can make excuses but they’re just that.

Snakebites wrote:

GreekAlex wrote:

Snakebites wrote:I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the second half of his tenure, when he was hamstrung by the sale of the team, was more indicative of his skills as an executive?

Both longer and more recent.

You can make excuses but they’re just that.

Neither of those are great reasons. And why is the cutoff 2005? The team went to 3 more ECFs after.

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Dumars burned bright and flamed out hard. There were some external circumstances, for sure (ownership, Larry Brown) but his post-championship free agent choices and draft choices did not go well — at all. The core he established was still good until it got old. Then we entered the abyss.

DetroitSho wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

GreekAlex wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the second half of his tenure, when he was hamstrung by the sale of the team, was more indicative of his skills as an executive?

Both longer and more recent.

You can make excuses but they’re just that.

Neither of those are great reasons. And why is the cutoff 2005? The team went to 3 more ECFs after.

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

I don’t think he made good moves after 2005.

He was very effective at team building in the early years but very poor afterwards.

The subject here is not his legacy as a Piston it’s how likely he is to be effective as a team runner in 2025. And from where I’m sitting it’s been a long time since he was effective in that role.

The only thing the sale hamstrung Dumars from doing was fixing his initial mistakes from the 09 off-season. Those were still his mistakes.

Not to mention all new mistakes like Josh Smith were made once the sale was a non issue.

Snakebites wrote:I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Hindsight is 20/20. We were consistently falling short with the group we had, and he saw a rising star in Stuckey, believing an infusion of talent in BG & CV would give the team in a boost.

Obviously that turned out to be a disaster. Joe heavily underestimated the importance of defense & fit, paying one way guys in free agency and creating logjams at positions. Pre 2009 was a masterclass. We'll see how he fares this time.

People always lament his free agent choices during the years they were competing. Most good teams had 3 really good starters and then 2 competent players that could easily be upgraded with just the MLE. That dynamic didn't exist for them. The Pistons was just about the only team in the league, with all 5 above average starters playing high minutes. Depending on the year you can say the same for Phoenix, and their player acquisition is known to be a detriment to their chances.

Yeah you can lament Jarvis Hayes, Flip Murray and those caliber of acquisitions. But who tf do people think we were adding with never having capspace, no starting spot to promise, and only 13 mpg to provide them? 2 what ifs that Joe was in the middle of that would've changed the trajectory of this team. If Dale Davis goofy ass chose us over the Pacers in the spring '05, then Tayshaun Prince is not guarding Tim freaking Duncan in a Game 7 and we win that. Also, if Kobe says, "yeah I'm not exercising the NTC, I'm going to Detroit". That's right, Joe Dumars traded for prime Kobe Bryant after 2005.

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Snakebites wrote:[
I don’t think he made good moves after 2005.

He was very effective at team building in the early years but very poor afterwards.

It was 2008 when Dumars blew up the team in the wrong way and things really went off the rails.-- AI, BG, JSmoove, coaching clowns, etc. Bill Davidson not going over the cap after the title handicapped Dumars, and we still made 3 ECFs after 2005. The teams that DID blow the cap got rewarded with the amnesty option. That spared most teams huge consequences of their poor decisions, at the expense of prudent teams that didn't blow their wads.

I'm happy for Dumars to get a stint with the team in his home state. It'll be fun to see what happens with Zion.

This move has been in the making for years. Mickey Loomis nearly hired him in 2015. He and Dumars, who is a Louisiana guy, have been friends a long time. He used to (and probably still does) have Dumars in his guest suit for Saints games.


* It's interesting/bizarre that the Saints & Pelicans share the same upper management.

.

MrBigShot wrote:

Snakebites wrote:I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Hindsight is 20/20. We were consistently falling short with the group we had, and he saw a rising star in Stuckey, believing an infusion of talent in BG & CV would give the team in a boost.

Obviously that turned out to be a disaster. Joe heavily underestimated the importance of defense & fit, paying one way guys in free agency and creating logjams at positions. Pre 2009 was a masterclass. We'll see how he fares this time.

We grabbed CV and Gordon because they were the only major free agents on the market, and it didn’t take hindsight to know they fit abysmally into the roster.

We positioned ourselves for cap space in a weak class, and did so by trading away Billups while extending Rip despite the latter being less of a leader and more dependent on a system to be affective.

“Hindsight is 20/20” can be used to hand waive 90 percent of criticism. At the end of the day it is the GM’s job to navigate all of this and I think it’s fairly clear he didn’t do that well.

And remember- everything Josh Smith and earlier is on him too.

Again- his legacy is still that of a champion both as a player and as an executive. But when evaluating him as an executive and projecting the job he’d likely do if handed a team, I think it’s totally fair to weigh what he did later on more heavily.

Snakebites wrote:

MrBigShot wrote:

Snakebites wrote:I’ll always associate him with our incredible rise. But what he did from 2005 onward is, IMO, more predictive of what can be expected of him going forward.

And that was brutal.

Willie Green looks like he’ll be spared for now, though it could be just a “we want to let the new guy make the call” type of situation.

Hindsight is 20/20. We were consistently falling short with the group we had, and he saw a rising star in Stuckey, believing an infusion of talent in BG & CV would give the team in a boost.

Obviously that turned out to be a disaster. Joe heavily underestimated the importance of defense & fit, paying one way guys in free agency and creating logjams at positions. Pre 2009 was a masterclass. We'll see how he fares this time.

We grabbed BG and Gordon because they were the only major free agents on the market, and it didn’t take hindsight to know they fit abysmally into the roster.

We positioned ourselves for cap space in a weak class, and did so by trading away Billups while extending Rip despite the latter being less of a leader and more dependent on a system to be affective.

“Hindsight is 20/20” can be used to hand waive 90 percent of criticism. At the end of the day it is the GM’s job to navigate all of this and I think it’s fairly clear he didn’t do that well.

And remember- everything Josh Smith and earlier is on him too.

Again- his legacy is still that of a champion both as a player and as an executive. But when evaluating him as an executive and projecting the job he’d likely do if handed a team, I think it’s totally fair to weigh what he did later on more heavily.

Aren't BG and Ben Gordon the same player? Josh was the reason Dumars failed. Without his massive salary, a team could still have been built.

BadMofoPimp wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

MrBigShot wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20. We were consistently falling short with the group we had, and he saw a rising star in Stuckey, believing an infusion of talent in BG & CV would give the team in a boost.

Obviously that turned out to be a disaster. Joe heavily underestimated the importance of defense & fit, paying one way guys in free agency and creating logjams at positions. Pre 2009 was a masterclass. We'll see how he fares this time.

We grabbed BG and Gordon because they were the only major free agents on the market, and it didn’t take hindsight to know they fit abysmally into the roster.

We positioned ourselves for cap space in a weak class, and did so by trading away Billups while extending Rip despite the latter being less of a leader and more dependent on a system to be affective.

“Hindsight is 20/20” can be used to hand waive 90 percent of criticism. At the end of the day it is the GM’s job to navigate all of this and I think it’s fairly clear he didn’t do that well.

And remember- everything Josh Smith and earlier is on him too.

Again- his legacy is still that of a champion both as a player and as an executive. But when evaluating him as an executive and projecting the job he’d likely do if handed a team, I think it’s totally fair to weigh what he did later on more heavily.

Aren't BG and Ben Gordon the same player? Josh was the reason Dumars failed. Without his massive salary, a team could still have been built.

Surely you knew I meant CV…

I'll be rooting for Joe D. Maybe he felt some type of way for the Stewart shet. Yes, I was upset at him but I'll be rooting for him

Snakebites wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:

Snakebites wrote:We grabbed BG and Gordon because they were the only major free agents on the market, and it didn’t take hindsight to know they fit abysmally into the roster.

We positioned ourselves for cap space in a weak class, and did so by trading away Billups while extending Rip despite the latter being less of a leader and more dependent on a system to be affective.

“Hindsight is 20/20” can be used to hand waive 90 percent of criticism. At the end of the day it is the GM’s job to navigate all of this and I think it’s fairly clear he didn’t do that well.

And remember- everything Josh Smith and earlier is on him too.

Again- his legacy is still that of a champion both as a player and as an executive. But when evaluating him as an executive and projecting the job he’d likely do if handed a team, I think it’s totally fair to weigh what he did later on more heavily.

Aren't BG and Ben Gordon the same player? Josh was the reason Dumars failed. Without his massive salary, a team could still have been built.

Surely you knew I meant CV…

Joe Dumars biggest mistakes followed the same pattern:
1. Missing out on all of the marquee free agents for that particular offseason
2. Using the ample and available funds on questionable at best swings at the fence; for players who didn't work out elsewhere.
3. Signing these same folks to long contracts
4. Using resources to then get rid of said contracts

And while all of the above was going on developing no internal prospects outside of Tayshaun and sort of Stuckey for his entire tenure.

Not a recipe for success.

Invictus88 wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Aren't BG and Ben Gordon the same player? Josh was the reason Dumars failed. Without his massive salary, a team could still have been built.

Surely you knew I meant CV…

Joe Dumars biggest mistakes followed the same pattern:
1. Missing out on all of the marquee free agents for that particular offseason
2. Using the ample and available funds on questionable at best swings at the fence; for players who didn't work out elsewhere.
3. Signing these same folks to long contracts
4. Using resources to then get rid of said contracts

And while all of the above was going on developing no internal prospects outside of Tayshaun and sort of Stuckey for his entire tenure.

Not a recipe for success.

Exactly who were these marquee free agents? I remember that 09 free agency to be an abyss while everyone else were waiting on the 2010 free agency with LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, and Boozer.

I remember BG and CV being main targets and Dumars checking in with Atlanta about Josh Smiths availability since he was restricted then.

Sheeeeed wrote:

Invictus88 wrote:

Snakebites wrote:Surely you knew I meant CV…

Joe Dumars biggest mistakes followed the same pattern:
1. Missing out on all of the marquee free agents for that particular offseason
2. Using the ample and available funds on questionable at best swings at the fence; for players who didn't work out elsewhere.
3. Signing these same folks to long contracts
4. Using resources to then get rid of said contracts

And while all of the above was going on developing no internal prospects outside of Tayshaun and sort of Stuckey for his entire tenure.

Not a recipe for success.

Exactly who were these marquee free agents? I remember that 09 free agency to be an abyss while everyone else were waiting on the 2010 free agency with LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, and Boozer.

I remember BG and CV being main targets and Dumars checking in with Atlanta about Josh Smiths availability since he was restricted then.

BG and CV were signed after literally everyone else at the time had signed elsewhere. To suggest that an undersized shooting guard who wanted way more money than the Bulls were willing to give or Charlie Villanueva who really had not proven himself at that point is just being disingenuous. You're making revisionist history.

Your memory is awful.

Invictus88 wrote:

Sheeeeed wrote:

Invictus88 wrote:
Joe Dumars biggest mistakes followed the same pattern:
1. Missing out on all of the marquee free agents for that particular offseason
2. Using the ample and available funds on questionable at best swings at the fence; for players who didn't work out elsewhere.
3. Signing these same folks to long contracts
4. Using resources to then get rid of said contracts

And while all of the above was going on developing no internal prospects outside of Tayshaun and sort of Stuckey for his entire tenure.

Not a recipe for success.

Exactly who were these marquee free agents? I remember that 09 free agency to be an abyss while everyone else were waiting on the 2010 free agency with LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, and Boozer.

I remember BG and CV being main targets and Dumars checking in with Atlanta about Josh Smiths availability since he was restricted then.

BG and CV were signed after literally everyone else at the time had signed elsewhere. To suggest that an undersized shooting guard who wanted way more money than the Bulls were willing to give or Charlie Villanueva who really had not proven himself at that point is just being disingenuous. You're making revisionist history.

Your memory is awful.

Again who were these marquee free agents?

Ben Gordon was a hot name who lit it up in the playoffs that year. That free agency was an abyss, and alot people had Ben Gordon as a top 3 free agent that year, but here you are calling me disingenuous and having a bad memory.