Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Ivey and Duren Extensions
What will TL do?
On one hand, there’s the a good chance they both have really good seasons, and their value (and price) could go way up.
On the other hand, GMs need to get smarter and they are not throwing around crazy contracts anymore. Pistons could get some leverage.
Another aspect is, at worst case, we can always match offers if it gets to RFA. So we pay the market, although they might feel a bit dissed.
Also, if they are asking for crazy money right now, maybe we should just plan on trading them this year.
I think we got until October to extend them, essentially before the season starts. TL and Bickerstaff should know what we have. I’d almost prefer to take the chance that they’ll continue to improve and just do the extensions now.
On one hand, there’s the a good chance they both have really good seasons, and their value (and price) could go way up.
On the other hand, GMs need to get smarter and they are not throwing around crazy contracts anymore. Pistons could get some leverage.
Another aspect is, at worst case, we can always match offers if it gets to RFA. So we pay the market, although they might feel a bit dissed.
Also, if they are asking for crazy money right now, maybe we should just plan on trading them this year.
I think we got until October to extend them, essentially before the season starts. TL and Bickerstaff should know what we have. I’d almost prefer to take the chance that they’ll continue to improve and just do the extensions now.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
I’m sure they think they are worth more than we would offer right now.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
I really don't want to tie our cap space for potential.
If I had to keep one, it would be Duren... There's also nothing worse than losing guy/s for nothing, so if there's a trade out there for pieces we need - do it, Trajan. It would be nice to have guys at their size who can play defense. We are trying to move forward, so we can always add draft picks.
If I had to keep one, it would be Duren... There's also nothing worse than losing guy/s for nothing, so if there's a trade out there for pieces we need - do it, Trajan. It would be nice to have guys at their size who can play defense. We are trying to move forward, so we can always add draft picks.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
I think it's really simple.
TL offers them what they are currently worth right now.
For Ivey this is likely way lower than what he believes he should be getting from how he will be playing going forward. He started playing great right before his injury but it wasn't long enough to establish a new baseline of play for him.
For Duren it's likely something around Claxton money (4yrs, 100 million).
If either of them take it then great; that means that we are likely getting a good deal on them if they develop at all. They get the security of guaranteed money. If they don't then we say it's perfectly fine not to take this offer if you believe you will outperform it this year. Let's see how it goes and then get back together next offseason and negotiate again.
Both are RFAs so there's not a lot of risk just checking to see if they will take a friendly offer now. But there's no reason to bid against ourselves on anything bigger than that either.
TL offers them what they are currently worth right now.
For Ivey this is likely way lower than what he believes he should be getting from how he will be playing going forward. He started playing great right before his injury but it wasn't long enough to establish a new baseline of play for him.
For Duren it's likely something around Claxton money (4yrs, 100 million).
If either of them take it then great; that means that we are likely getting a good deal on them if they develop at all. They get the security of guaranteed money. If they don't then we say it's perfectly fine not to take this offer if you believe you will outperform it this year. Let's see how it goes and then get back together next offseason and negotiate again.
Both are RFAs so there's not a lot of risk just checking to see if they will take a friendly offer now. But there's no reason to bid against ourselves on anything bigger than that either.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Personally I don’t see Duren’s defence improving and unless he’s hitting mid range or 3pt shots at a good rate I don’t believe he’s worth that much at all. If we be objective, how much of a difference is there between Deandre Ayton and Duren? This isn’t to say I think we let him simply walk, but I think we really need to be careful as to how much we give him since if he doesn’t improve it’s going to be a negative contract instantly.
When it comes to Ivey, I think we’ve seen how the Green contract played out and high volume / low efficiency guards simply don’t have that much value anymore.
We should be offering team friendly deals reducing our risk to zero and yes even if that means they get offended. Duren with his pathetic defence and zero spacing simply isn’t a valuable piece and Ivey’s had a very small sample side of effective play. I don’t believe either of them would take the QO.
When it comes to Ivey, I think we’ve seen how the Green contract played out and high volume / low efficiency guards simply don’t have that much value anymore.
We should be offering team friendly deals reducing our risk to zero and yes even if that means they get offended. Duren with his pathetic defence and zero spacing simply isn’t a valuable piece and Ivey’s had a very small sample side of effective play. I don’t believe either of them would take the QO.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Ivey is highly unlikely to receive an extension unless it's very team friendly. Thanks to Voldemort two seasons ago and his injury last season, his track record is extremely limited. That's chiefly not his fault, but the fact remains. Trajan and company need more data before they'll commit big money to him. He doesn't merit it right now.
Duren is overwhelmingly unlikely to receive an extension unless it's team friendly to the point that it will only marginally hurt if he doesn't improve. Traditional centers are inherently undesirable in today's league because of their offensive limitations. Unless they're good at all of the traditional big things, they aren't worth committing to. Defense is the most important traditional big thing there is, and Duren is still remarkably poor at it after three big-minute NBA seasons. Unless he takes a very considerable leap defensively, he won't be a viable starting center in the postseason, and historically speaking a player who remains as slow-witted defensively as he is despite having that level of NBA experience is extremely unlikely to substantively improve.
Neither this front office nor any other would give Duren substantial money of any sort at this juncture, and the often-voiced notion that he's not only sure to be paid in his current form but would receive one of the largest salaries of any traditional center thoroughly ignores the very unambiguous landscape for traditional centers in today's league.
I expect that we'll see neither of them extended this summer.
Duren is overwhelmingly unlikely to receive an extension unless it's team friendly to the point that it will only marginally hurt if he doesn't improve. Traditional centers are inherently undesirable in today's league because of their offensive limitations. Unless they're good at all of the traditional big things, they aren't worth committing to. Defense is the most important traditional big thing there is, and Duren is still remarkably poor at it after three big-minute NBA seasons. Unless he takes a very considerable leap defensively, he won't be a viable starting center in the postseason, and historically speaking a player who remains as slow-witted defensively as he is despite having that level of NBA experience is extremely unlikely to substantively improve.
Neither this front office nor any other would give Duren substantial money of any sort at this juncture, and the often-voiced notion that he's not only sure to be paid in his current form but would receive one of the largest salaries of any traditional center thoroughly ignores the very unambiguous landscape for traditional centers in today's league.
I expect that we'll see neither of them extended this summer.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Invictus88 wrote:For Duren it's likely something around Claxton money (4yrs, 100 million).
I know I've harped on this, but Duren is unambiguously worth nowhere near Claxton money at this point. Sorry for the incoming wall of text (I have a lot to say, as you've probably noticed by now

Defense is priority #1 for traditional centers given how deeply limited they are on offense. Every single traditional center paid more than 5% of the cap (all the way down to Bitadze) is at the very least a solid defender. There isn't a single traditional big paid more than $15 million who isn't a genuinely GOOD defender. Duren is a genuinely bad defender, which makes his value equation very unfavorable.
Very few traditional bigs are paid any significant amount of money, and even the highest paid of them -- Gobert, the one and only traditional big set to be paid $30m+ next season -- come in at far less than the league's truly skilled offensive bigs receive. No team wants to hitch its wagon to a traditional center who isn't good at traditional center things (especially defense), let alone to pay big money to a player like that.
Claxton's salary would tie Duren for third highest-paid traditional center in the league next season despite the impossibility of him being a viable postseason center unless his defense takes a giant leap the likes of which pretty much nobody who's as poor at the mental aspect of defense after three big-minute seasons as he is has ever taken.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Nothing earth shattering here, but I think this is a simple as what our record shows…If we take a step back, one or both of them get moved, and if we continue the chemistry from last year and improve, TL will figure out a way to keep both.
Still feel like losing Beasley/THJ/Schroders irrational confidence and swagger is gonna hurt this team more than most people realize, but we can save that for another thread.
Still feel like losing Beasley/THJ/Schroders irrational confidence and swagger is gonna hurt this team more than most people realize, but we can save that for another thread.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Crymson wrote:Invictus88 wrote:For Duren it's likely something around Claxton money (4yrs, 100 million).
I know I've harped on this, but Duren is unambiguously worth nowhere near Claxton money at this point. Sorry for the incoming wall of text (I have a lot to say, as you've probably noticed by now). I'm not saying any of this to lecture; it's just that a lot of the talk about Duren often leaves me feeling like the harsh landscape for traditional centers in today's league is very underappreciated.
Defense is priority #1 for traditional centers given how deeply limited they are on offense. Every single traditional center paid more than 5% of the cap (all the way down to Bitadze) is at the very least a solid defender. There isn't a single traditional big paid more than $15 million who isn't a genuinely GOOD defender. Duren is a genuinely bad defender, which makes his value equation very unfavorable.
Very few traditional bigs are paid any significant amount of money, and even the highest paid of them -- Gobert, the one and only traditional big set to be paid $30m+ next season -- come in at far less than the league's truly skilled offensive bigs receive. No team wants to hitch its wagon to a traditional center who isn't good at traditional center things (especially defense), let alone to pay big money to a player like that.
Claxton's salary would tie Duren for third highest-paid traditional center in the league next season despite the impossibility of him being a viable postseason center unless his defense takes a giant leap the likes of which pretty much nobody who's as poor at the mental aspect of defense after three big-minute seasons as he is has ever taken.
I agree with a lot of what you say here. I really am not trying to start a big debate. My impression is that the Pistons overall were decent defensively even with Duren playing while Stewart was out in the playoffs. It in no way says that Duren himself is a good defender; just that our team can work well with him in that position in certain lineups (especially ones with Ausar).
I know you don't value it but Duren does have traits that are far better than Claxton's. He's stronger. He's more efficient offensively. He has more in his toolbag of offensive moves/skills and is a much better passer. There's even an off-chance that he develops something of an outside shot given his FT shooting numbers (not last year, but the year prior where he shot 79% on 181 attempts). But that is maybe a reach.
If you are going to pay him Claxton money then I think you have to believe that he is going to continue with the motor and improvement he showed at the back half of the season and that will roll forward into further advances going forward. You have to believe that he is more than just a traditional center.
If you don't then you are absolutely right and we shouldn't be extending him. We should be looking to trade him to someone who does instead.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
I like these discussions because while we root for Ivey and Duren, once you really start to place them in the NBA hierarchy and try to determine their real worth - boy they get exposed.
Duren makes great plays but he's all potential and he hasn't shown anything remarkable. If Pistons had two Stewarts we would be just fine without Duren. Really anyone who can catch lobs and play defense is going to do well with the team next year. Except Duren can only do one of those really well. If he has Ben Wallace defense trajectory then awesome but he doesn't.
Ivey hasn't shown anything. Guys go on streaks all the time in the NBA for 20 games and they still suck. Ivey needs to play a whole season at his "best" level and probably even better than that before anyone starts talking about real solid starter money.
Its cool to see what they are really worth once you consider the bill needed to keep them.
Duren makes great plays but he's all potential and he hasn't shown anything remarkable. If Pistons had two Stewarts we would be just fine without Duren. Really anyone who can catch lobs and play defense is going to do well with the team next year. Except Duren can only do one of those really well. If he has Ben Wallace defense trajectory then awesome but he doesn't.
Ivey hasn't shown anything. Guys go on streaks all the time in the NBA for 20 games and they still suck. Ivey needs to play a whole season at his "best" level and probably even better than that before anyone starts talking about real solid starter money.
Its cool to see what they are really worth once you consider the bill needed to keep them.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
I’m curious what TL should offer as possible extensions this summer. I’m pretty sure if he can get them to sign team friendly deals, he’ll do that. I’m not even sure how to balance effects on future salaries - it’s a rising salary cap versus the new punitive CBA.
4x$20M for Duren?
4x$25M for Ivey?
4x$20M for Duren?
4x$25M for Ivey?
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Don't outbid yourself for a RFA. This is not the previous CBA anymore.
"They say you miss 100% of the shots you take" - Mike James
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Hmmm, maybe this cam thomas rumor has to do with Iveys impending extension. Ivey+Tobias+1st for Markkanen



Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
There's no way Ivey would be interested in signing now. His market is likely pretty low coming off the injury after a small sample size of showing improvements. I'm sure he's confident in his ability to continue improving and approaching rookie max level after the season.
As for Duren? I'm still not sold. He showed some improvement this season but what do you pay a 5 whose one above average ability is catching lobs? Tough one. The one thing I do like about him is that he shoots free throws reasonably well although he regressed a bit last season which is what places him above Drummond for me but not by much. It's not Duren's fault really, he's just limited in a league that's still very perimeter oriented for bigs. If he was a rim protector like Stewart I'd see the value in him but I'm just not sure he'll be worth the 2nd contract that he might command if he puts up decent numbers again. He does have some pick and roll chemistry with Cade though and he seems like a good locker room guy so it's a tough one but I'm not a huge fan.
As for Duren? I'm still not sold. He showed some improvement this season but what do you pay a 5 whose one above average ability is catching lobs? Tough one. The one thing I do like about him is that he shoots free throws reasonably well although he regressed a bit last season which is what places him above Drummond for me but not by much. It's not Duren's fault really, he's just limited in a league that's still very perimeter oriented for bigs. If he was a rim protector like Stewart I'd see the value in him but I'm just not sure he'll be worth the 2nd contract that he might command if he puts up decent numbers again. He does have some pick and roll chemistry with Cade though and he seems like a good locker room guy so it's a tough one but I'm not a huge fan.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
Invictus88 wrote:I agree with a lot of what you say here. I really am not trying to start a big debate. My impression is that the Pistons overall were decent defensively even with Duren playing while Stewart was out in the playoffs. It in no way says that Duren himself is a good defender; just that our team can work well with him in that position in certain lineups (especially ones with Ausar).
How good they were on defense with Duren on the floor was inversely proportional to the caliber of the opposing offense. He was just fine against bad offenses. His flaws became very evident against decent offenses. He almost invariably got run over by good offenses, to such a degree that Stewart was generally a definitively better option regardless of his cost on offense. In the postseason, Duren was protected in every way possible -- from KAT, from switches, and via assignment to a non-shooter -- and did badly on defense anyway.
If he's bad on defense, he's going to provide bad value.
I know you don't value it but Duren does have traits that are far better than Claxton's. He's stronger. He's more efficient offensively. He has more in his toolbag of offensive moves/skills and is a much better passer.
Yep. But traditional bigs are all so limited on offense that the overall difference in impact isn't very big. The gap on defense is huge, and that has a much larger value impact.
There's even an off-chance that he develops something of an outside shot given his FT shooting numbers (not last year, but the year prior where he shot 79% on 181 attempts). But that is maybe a reach.
It would be unprecedented. I can't think of a single complete non-shooter who went on to be a viable perimeter shooter. Lopez gets cited, but he always had shooting touch -- he's always been a skilled scoring big -- he just didn't expand his range until the spacing era made it valuable for him to do so. That was the case for quite a few centers.
FT% is only an indicator when it's applied to guys have a history as shooters of some ilk. Even then, it's far from infallible.
If you are going to pay him Claxton money then I think you have to believe that he is going to continue with the motor and improvement he showed at the back half of the season and that will roll forward into further advances going forward. You have to believe that he is more than just a traditional center.
The motor bit is important, because it's very much worth keeping in mind that Duren has played a hardworking, team-first style in maybe 60 games over the past two seasons. I think he worked plenty hard in the 2025 portion of this past season. Unfortunately, we found out that while hardworking Duren is unsurprisingly a great deal more effective than lazy Duren, hardworking Duren still sucks on defense.
If you don't then you are absolutely right and we shouldn't be extending him. We should be looking to trade him to someone who does instead.
It's just more or less unheard of for traditional bigs to evolve past their boundaries.
I doubt anyone would be interested in paying significant value for him. They can all see his downsides the same way we can.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
theBigLip wrote:I’m curious what TL should offer as possible extensions this summer. I’m pretty sure if he can get them to sign team friendly deals, he’ll do that. I’m not even sure how to balance effects on future salaries - it’s a rising salary cap versus the new punitive CBA.
4x$20M for Duren?
4x$25M for Ivey?
Even $20m for Duren would amount to a substantial overpay and risk a significant opportunity cost. That's not a team-friendly deal unless he massively improves on defense, because he'll be an on-court minus by default against good teams otherwise. That's a bad center to hitch one's wagon to.
I'd risk 4x25 on Ivey.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
4/100 for Duren would be great, but 4/80 would be even better.
He has a ton of room to grow, as he is only 21, and his growth during the regular season was very promising.
As for Ivey, those 30 games were tantalizing as hell, and he also has a ton of room to grow.
4/100, or 4/125. Fine with either. Both players are going to be easy to move if needed, although I don't see a reason why.
He has a ton of room to grow, as he is only 21, and his growth during the regular season was very promising.
As for Ivey, those 30 games were tantalizing as hell, and he also has a ton of room to grow.
4/100, or 4/125. Fine with either. Both players are going to be easy to move if needed, although I don't see a reason why.
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
NYPiston wrote:There's no way Ivey would be interested in signing now. His market is likely pretty low coming off the injury after a small sample size of showing improvements. I'm sure he's confident in his ability to continue improving and approaching rookie max level after the season.
As for Duren? I'm still not sold. He showed some improvement this season but what do you pay a 5 whose one above average ability is catching lobs? Tough one. The one thing I do like about him is that he shoots free throws reasonably well although he regressed a bit last season which is what places him above Drummond for me but not by much. It's not Duren's fault really, he's just limited in a league that's still very perimeter oriented for bigs. If he was a rim protector like Stewart I'd see the value in him but I'm just not sure he'll be worth the 2nd contract that he might command if he puts up decent numbers again. He does have some pick and roll chemistry with Cade though and he seems like a good locker room guy so it's a tough one but I'm not a huge fan.
Not to mention our best rebounder as well.
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
It’s a good sign nothing has happened yet. I like continuity, and I like some of what both of those guys bring, but my offers would not be high right now. Perhaps that’s what has happened, and the players/agents have decided to play it out.
Duren’s current value is no greater than Stewart’s, plus the general cost of living increase since Stew signed. 4/70 is as high as I go.
Ivey needs to show it again AND play better defense. His offer is for a bad defense combo guard with offensive potential. 4/90 is it.
Waiting won’t hurt us. It gives us this season and next summer to make decisions. If they both take leaps, so be it, it’ll likely be an awesome year.
It’s worth nothing that under JBB and staff some guys took noticeable leaps as defenders last year. Stewart went from good to awesome. Cade went from below average to average. Tobias was pretty good. Holland was good as a rookie. Ausar continued to develop on that end. Those two guys above looking for extensions did not. That matters.
Duren’s current value is no greater than Stewart’s, plus the general cost of living increase since Stew signed. 4/70 is as high as I go.
Ivey needs to show it again AND play better defense. His offer is for a bad defense combo guard with offensive potential. 4/90 is it.
Waiting won’t hurt us. It gives us this season and next summer to make decisions. If they both take leaps, so be it, it’ll likely be an awesome year.
It’s worth nothing that under JBB and staff some guys took noticeable leaps as defenders last year. Stewart went from good to awesome. Cade went from below average to average. Tobias was pretty good. Holland was good as a rookie. Ausar continued to develop on that end. Those two guys above looking for extensions did not. That matters.
Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
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Re: Ivey and Duren Extensions
zeebneeb wrote:4/100 for Duren would be great, but 4/80 would be even better.
He has a ton of room to grow, as he is only 21, and his growth during the regular season was very promising.
As for Ivey, those 30 games were tantalizing as hell, and he also has a ton of room to grow.
4/100, or 4/125. Fine with either. Both players are going to be easy to move if needed, although I don't see a reason why.
I have to say, what in Duren's game makes you think that 4 years $100m would be a great contract for him? I'm honestly not seeing what you're seeing.
I'm seeing a guy that makes flashy dunks and some splash defensive plays but I'm also seeing a guy that's very limited offensively and doesn't defend well against quality bigs.
Sure he has room to grow but which areas of his game do you see enough growth potential to justify a contract like that? I know there's an age gap but Myles Turner, who is a far superior player and who torches Duren when he plays him, barely got more than that proposed 4 year $100m contract. If Duren shows some significant defensive growth this season then I could see the justification for such a contract but right now that's quite a leap IMO. He'll always be limited offensively but if he can become even an above average defender then I can stomach a contract like that but he has a ways to go get to that level even with some incremental growth last season.