RIP's on fire....

[prophet_of_rage]

The argument devolved into a question of who is the most replaceable member of the starting five. This is a legitimate question that the Pistons will have to address at some point.

There had been an initial sentiment that Rip was the most tradeable and there were actually several suggestions to move him. Now his defenders have demonstrated the evidence of his value.

Here are the championship season playoff stats. You'll see it's not close who the best offensive performer is on the Pistons.

http://www.nba.com/pistons/stats/2003/playoffs_stats.html

[Dirtgrain]

Dumars does not try to figure out who is "most tradeable" on this team. He evaluates each potential trade on its merits, considering the players to be acquired and how they will fit on the team, what we lose, what we gain (and he does decide on players whom he wants to move (but still has to find the right trade--as with Mohammed)). Just generally attaching a label "most tradeable" is not very meaningful. Who would you want to trade for Steve Nash, Billups or Hamilton (assuming you were set on making the trade with one or the other)? Billups obviously makes more sense. Who would you want to trade for Joe Johnson, Billups or Hamilton (assuming you had to make the trade with one or the other)? Hamilton, obviously. "Most tradeable" varies depending on what is available.

We can speculate about whom we can least afford to lose in the playoffs--just for the fun of speculation. I still don't see how you determine whom we can afford to lose the least out of Billups, Hamilton and Wallace. If we lost Wallace for the entire playoffs, would our chances be better or worse than if we lost Billups or Hamilton? I'm not sure on that one.

[prophet_of_rage]

This came from Cowology's comment that Rip is the most tradeable of the starting five. I vehemently disagreed. And now you're limiting it to Hamilton, Billups and Sheed. What about Prince and McDyess?

The scenario is such ... if you had to replace one player who would be the easiest to replace and maintain the Pistons current identity?

[Uncle Mxy]

Tay defense has been on the decline since the rule changes. So much so that sometimes Rip is matched up with the best SG/SF because Tay isn't quick enough to stay with them.

Tay's defense tends to wane when he starts playing too many minutes. He can D up against the fastest -or- strongest covers, but not for the minutes he's been asked to play against them. Tay can keep up with a Wade or a LeBron for a game or two, but not in a 7 game series.

Tay is too skinny. Do I have to remind you just how bad Tay was during the ECF last year? Dude shot in the 20's and got destroyed by Lebron James.

You're right -- part of it is that he's skinny. Part of it is having no one to back him and being stretched too thin.

When we put a backup on a LeBron or Wade (who can play 40+ mpg), the superstars will get most of the calls no matter how good their defense is. Delfino would play good D against stars at times, and he'd get rewarded with cheap fouls and Flip doing nervous face things. So we put Tay back in and he gets beat down. Even if Tay wanted to, he couldn't bulk up to take that kind of abuse and be effective against the zippy wing players, and I doubt he gets faster without losing 20 lbs which would be disasterous.

We need a bigger guy playing backup SF who will get respected by the refs to keep LeBron honest for a few minutes. I hope that "bigger guy" is Maxiell. Hayes can give Tayshaun a breather during the season, but I'm unsure how it'll play out in the playoffs.

[ajaX82]

-= original quote snipped =-


You're right -- part of it is that he's skinny. Part of it is having no one to back him and being stretched too thin.

When we put a backup on a LeBron or Wade (who can play 40+ mpg), the superstars will get most of the calls no matter how good their defense is. Delfino would play good D against stars at times, and he'd get rewarded with cheap fouls and Flip doing nervous face things. So we put Tay back in and he gets beat down. Even if Tay wanted to, he couldn't bulk up to take that kind of abuse and be effective against the zippy wing players, and I doubt he gets faster without losing 20 lbs which would be disasterous.

We need a bigger guy playing backup SF who will get respected by the refs to keep LeBron honest for a few minutes. I hope that "bigger guy" is Maxiell. Hayes can give Tayshaun a breather during the season, but I'm unsure how it'll play out in the playoffs.

I said this last summer too but a great move for us would be to grab Quinton Ross from the Clips. Hes a SF that only plays D, and does it quite well. Trade Hermann for him and sit him at the end of the bench until you need a good defensive sub

EDIT: Dan Dickau and Quinton Ross for Flip Murray works on the trade checker. Flip gives them a good backup guard, we get our SF. We all win!

[Dirtgrain]

This came from Cowology's comment that Rip is the most tradeable of the starting five. I vehemently disagreed. And now you're limiting it to Hamilton, Billups and Sheed. What about Prince and McDyess?

Huh? I'm not limiting it--just throwing out a hypothetical to make a point. I do think losing one of those three for the playoffs would have a bigger impact than losing McDyess or Prince, as Maxiell could fill in for one of those two (maybe). They'd still be missed big time.

The scenario is such ... if you had to replace one player who would be the easiest to replace and maintain the Pistons current identity?

Easiest to replace with whom? Would it be easy to replace Wallace with Eric Snow? I'm just not seeing the point of saying this or that player can generally be replaced, in the scheme of our team, without indicating who would replace him--in a trade from another team--or as a free agent signing. I can see you saying this or that player will be easy to trade because he has high trade value (but that would ignore the potential impact on the team).

[Phobo_Phile]

Rip is the most replaceable as far as he brings on the court. But I don't know why you guys are getting so up in the air about it. I doubt that there is another move made at all this year.

[Cowology]

Rip is the most replaceable as far as he brings on the court. But I don't know why you guys are getting so up in the air about it. I doubt that there is another move made at all this year.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up over this either lol.

All I'm saying is that talented swingmen are a dime a dozen in this league. It's much easier to go out and try to find another sg than it is a pg or bigman, or even a player like Prince. There just aren't as many of them.

[Dirtgrain]

I see LeBron James getting super-star calls against all players except other super-stars (and Bowen, for some reason--he's got some kind of cred with the refs). Are you all still seeing James as a big hurdle for us this year? Have they been playing better recently? I don't see Miami turning things around this year like they have done in the past.

I do think Afflalo might play some good D against James, for a change of pace. It does seem like James will be able to shoot over the top of him close to the basket. And he will get the calls, but Afflalo might limit his driving and his long-distance shots.

For Prince defending quicker players, his compensation has always come from his long arms, coupled with footwork and hustle. I've seen him freak other players out--they have to adjust. I guess it doesn't bother James as much, but I'm willing to see Prince vs. James in the playoffs. Prince played Pierce well the last time we played Boston. Keep an eye on that match-up tomorrow.

[prophet_of_rage]

-= original quote snipped =-

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up over this either lol.

All I'm saying is that talented swingmen are a dime a dozen in this league. It's much easier to go out and try to find another sg than it is a pg or bigman, or even a player like Prince. There just aren't as many of them.

The opposite view is that Rip is a special player and not someone you can easily duplicate. His value to the Pistons is extreme and difficult to replace.

[Cowology]

We'll just agree to disagree

[prophet_of_rage]

No, we'll dsagree to agree.

[Uncle Mxy]

I see LeBron James getting super-star calls against all players except other super-stars (and Bowen, for some reason--he's got some kind of cred with the refs).

Some other vets do as well, just not young rookies. I was suggesting trading for Shane Battier on the basis of "defensive cred with the refs" in another thread recently.

BTW, LeBron's shooting percentages in the playoff series last year were
33, 37, 57, 42, 55, and 27% It wasn't as if Tayshaun's D was consistently lit on fire by LeBron. LeBron's biggest effect was just wearing him down to where he couldn't buy a bucket.

Are you all still seeing James as a big hurdle for us this year? Have they been playing better recently? I don't see Miami turning things around this year like they have done in the past.

If it's not one superstar, it's another. Most of our path is riddled with superstars of various flavors.

I do think Afflalo might play some good D against James, for a change of pace. It does seem like James will be able to shoot over the top of him close to the basket. And he will get the calls, but Afflalo might limit his driving and his long-distance shots.

If Afflalo couldn't handle Brewer at the NCAA level, I doubt he's ready for a LeBron at the NBA level. We've done this "put the undersized backup on LeBron" dance before, with MoEvans and Delfino, and it wasn't pretty. If we're talking a slightly-lesser light like Pierce, I remember Delfino doing a great job one time versus Boston, then Delfino getting put in foul trouble by BS calls the next. Who knows?

I worry about the superstars "finding a way" involving much ref love. We can't touch him early on without getting the foul, then we stop being as aggressive and end up with a superstar in his groove. <groan>

[Cowology]

^Tend to agree. Afflalo on LeBron is not something I particularly want to see. And that's not a knock on Afflalos defense, but he doesn't have the size, experience or reputation to get away with it.

I love to have a guy like Battier, but at what price? One thing to consider is that Stuckey is looking more and more like he'll be taking all the backup minutes at both the 1 and 2, which to my mind makes Afflalo much more available. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the guy and think he has Pistons DNA, but where's he gonna get minutes at?

IF we could package him w/ Hermann or Hayes for bigger, more physical defender at the 3 I'd have to seriously consider it. Not saying that is necessarily Battier, but somebody else in that vein w/ an established defensive rep sure wouldn't hurt.

[bstein14]

No knock on the Cavs, but I think our main competition will be Boston and San Antonio and Afflalo could be very valuable coming off the bench and defending guys like Allen and Ginobli.

I think we we're keeping him for sure.

[Cowology]

^Frankly I'm more concerned w/ the likes of LeBron (who we'll have to contend w/ for years) & Pierce than I am Ray or Manu. Other physical SF such as RJ often cause Prince some difficulty as well.

In the entire time Tay has been our starter we've never had a capable defensive backup or somebody capable of matching up w/ those few guys who give him some trouble.

And again, I'm NOT saying I want to get rid of Afflalo....but where is he gonna get minutes? 5 mpg at SG?

[bstein14]

^Frankly I'm more concerned w/ the likes of LeBron (who we'll have to contend w/ for years) & Pierce than I am Ray or Manu. Other physical SF just as RJ often cause Prince some difficulty as well.

In the entire time Tay has been our starter we've never had a capable defensive backup or somebody capable of matching up w/ those few guys who give him some trouble.

And again, I'm NOT saying I want to get rid of Afflalo....but where is he gonna get minutes? 5 mpg at SG?

Well Hayes is a FA next year, and that would basically open up a spot.

Rip's backed up the 3 on many occasions.

I agree that it would be good to have a big physical defender to come in and help slow down Lebron, Pierce, Butler, Jefferson, etc but these guys just don't grow on trees.

[Cowology]

IF we were to create minutes for Afflalo I agree the best way to do that is to shift Rip to SF, but I just don't see that as being ideal at all. He'd be even worse against those defensive match ups that Tay struggles with. Plus I just struggle to see Flip actually doing it.

Ah well.

[bstein14]

I mean Dupree was a pretty athletic guy, had size and was a solid defender.

You'd think if he could really spend time studying Lebron and Pierce he could have stuck on our roster and been the 12th man come playoff time.

I'm a fan of Battier, he'd be a great role playing and he, Max, and Stuckey would give this team a great 8 man rotation but I'm not sure he's an option.

[Dirtgrain]

I do wonder if any player on Rasheed Wallace's team can get calls. In the last few years (going back to when we first got Wallace, I think), many of the Pistons were complaining way too much about officiating. That might have something to do with us not getting calls. It doesn't seem so bad this year yet. Billups is getting the calls when he drives to the basket, I think (in previous years, he couldn't buy a call in some games).

As for our D, we could use another shot blocker (I have no idea where to get one--Johnson and Samb don't seem like they'll be ready for this year). We could also stand to get better at rotations. The best defensive teams can double a super star and rotate quickly enough to recuperate when he dishes off. Our team is damn good at this, but I've seen faster.