Need more Afflalo. Need some Amir.

[OneBadMutha]

Why is Detroit's best perimeter defender now mostly out of the rotation? Oh yeah...he doesn't have a good 3 point shot.

It goes to show you where the Flip Saunders priorities lie. Here's your only defender who can stay in the face of slashers and the only perimeter defender who's solid against pick-and-rolls -- but he mostly sits.

The reason that Afflalo and Amir don't play more is because they don't hit jump shots...period. This team needs energy, points in the paint, defense against penetration, and more contested shots in the paint. Yet two of their high energy guys who would provide some help to Detroit's biggest weaknesses sit.

This team was flat tonight. Totally flat. If that isn't an excuse to play two high energy guys who Flip claims "I want to play but can't find minutes for", then there will never be an excuse to play them.

[ajaX82]

preachin to the choir....

[HeroicKennedy]

Doesn't anyone think that it's possible that Amir may not be playing because Joe wants Brezec in instead of Amir?

Think about, he commented about how he liked acquiring Brezec in the trade, and that he wants to see what the 7-footer can do because he only has him from one year and Amir for three.

Everyone claims that Joe is forcing Flip's hand. Obviously, the supposedly veteran happy Flip should have Murray and Hunter getting consistent burn, and that Joe is forcing him to play Stuckey. That Flip wanted to bring Webber back, but Joe said no and forced him to play Maxiell.

Now, if Joe supposedly controls all other aspects of the playing time for the players, why can't he force Flip to play Amir, too?

[bstein14]

I agree.

Afflalo has played really hard and done things to help us win.

Stuckey doesn't deserve to take all his minutes.

Afflalo played his way into the rotation and has done nothing to play his way out.

I've been as impressed with him as I have been with any Detroit rookie in a while.

[Hunter]

Doesn't anyone think that it's possible that Amir may not be playing because Joe wants Brezec in instead of Amir?

No.

[HeroicKennedy]

No.

Then why isn't he playing? Everyone claims that Joe is calling the shots and forcing Flip to play Afflalo, Stuckey, Maxiell, Hayes more and rely on his bench, and yet Amir can't get in.

Which is it: Flip or Joe? Who's calling the shots?

[OneBadMutha]

Doesn't anyone think that it's possible that Amir may not be playing because Joe wants Brezec in instead of Amir?

Think about, he commented about how he liked acquiring Brezec in the trade, and that he wants to see what the 7-footer can do because he only has him from one year and Amir for three.

Everyone claims that Joe is forcing Flip's hand. Obviously, the supposedly veteran happy Flip should have Murray and Hunter getting consistent burn, and that Joe is forcing him to play Stuckey. That Flip wanted to bring Webber back, but Joe said no and forced him to play Maxiell.

Now, if Joe supposedly controls all other aspects of the playing time for the players, why can't he force Flip to play Amir, too?

No way. Joe has a crush on Amir. He gave him a decent contract.

Primo was brought here for his contract. Of course Joe is going to say something nice about the guy.

Primo brings one positive that Amir doesn't. He can hit jump shots. In terms of everything else, Amir does it better.

[OneBadMutha]

-= original quote snipped =-



Then why isn't he playing? Everyone claims that Joe is calling the shots and forcing Flip to play Afflalo, Stuckey, Maxiell, Hayes more and rely on his bench, and yet Amir can't get in.

Which is it: Flip or Joe? Who's calling the shots?

There was a general ultimatum that Flip develops the bench but Joe doesn't draw up his exact rotations for him.

I'm not saying Primo should never ever get a shot but it's kind of crazy that he gets to play even against smaller lineups that Amir would obviously favor better against.

I'm also not saying that Hayes should be benched but when the other team is isolating Hayes and destroying him defensively, it makes sense to put in your best perimeter defender.

[HeroicKennedy]

I just think that every blames Flip, when it could be *gasp*

The team as gotten old.

Billups is 31
McDyess is 33
Wallace is 33
Rip is soon to be 30

This team isn't the same team it was 3-4 years ago, both in members and in ability.

Flip has done a solid job coaching this team, when most coaches would have struggled to keep them in the top ten.

Now, playing Amir may be a solution, but what really may be the underlying problem is Joe's unwillingness to part with those who are loyal to him. McDyess' expiring would have brought in good trades, Billups isn't worth a $12 million dollar a year contract, Tayshaun's extension was very overpriced, etc.

Instead, he relies on rookies and unproven players to step up, then wonders why things don't work out. If you play Amir, Stuckey, Afflalo, and Maxiell at the same time, you are basically playing 4 rookies. At which point, you're going to have to accept that your team may need to rebuild.

But whatever. RAWR FLIP SUX.

[OneBadMutha]

I just think that every blames Flip, when it could be *gasp*

The team as gotten old.

Billups is 31
McDyess is 33
Wallace is 33
Rip is soon to be 30

This team isn't the same team it was 3-4 years ago, both in members and in ability.

Flip has done a solid job coaching this team, when most coaches would have struggled to keep them in the top ten.

Now, playing Amir may be a solution, but what really may be the underlying problem is Joe's unwillingness to part with those who are loyal to him. McDyess' expiring would have brought in good trades, Billups isn't worth a $12 million dollar a year contract, Tayshaun's extension was very overpriced, etc.

Instead, he relies on rookies and unproven players to step up, then wonders why things don't work out. If you play Amir, Stuckey, Afflalo, and Maxiell at the same time, you are basically playing 4 rookies. At which point, you're going to have to accept that your team may need to rebuild.

But whatever. RAWR FLIP SUX.

From top to bottom, this team is not too old. That's overblown considering that their oldest players didn't rely on athletic ability the year they won the Championship. Let's remember that Sheed played on one good leg during their 2004 Championship run. Chauncy has never been all that athletic. Dyess has been a jump shooter since he came to Detroit and his one on one defense is probably better than it was when he first came here.

Rip and Tay are still in their primes.

The rest of this team hasn't hit their primes.

If the starters are just bored and playing old, that's even more reason to put the young guys in there for a spark.

Flip has not done a solid job coaching this team when it's mattered. I'm not just talking results. He had no answers or adjustments either mid-game or within the series against the teams the Pistons have struggled with in the playoffs. Their offense is extremely predictable and rarely gets good defenses back on their heels.

This style doesn't win Championships. My guess is that Dumars has figured it out but can't get rid of the only coach that Davidson has loved in some time.

[HeroicKennedy]

You need to blend the old and the new. You can't have an all old starting lineup and an all young bench. The best team in the league, the Spurs, uses a combination of youth and experience in both their starting lineups and their bench. It produces results.

And Flip HAS done a good job coaching, otherwise he wouldn't have the best winning percentage of any coach in Piston history. He has a worse team than the 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 squads, and yet he still produces.

Yes, he has struggled in the playoffs, but there's several other coaches that were known as playoff duds (Tony Dungy for one, Norv Turner who finally won a game) that have been able to get their team's championships. Flip will get us a championship if we get him the talent. He only had one good team in Minnesota, and he took them to the WCF.

[Master Shake]

Guys seriously. I know we want to develop our young talent, but I don't understand why people think he's ready to play. For the love of god, the dude is 4 days older than me, its my third year of college. Put that in perspective...

He comes from probably having no money, to this totally different lifestyle, he's still gotta grow up. This is his first season not in the D league, he's not ready. He's still raw, yea he should get a little burn here and there outside of garbage time, but if he doesn't he's still got 2 more years on that deal.

He is the future, I really think next year is his year, but he still gets lost on defense repeatedly. Gets beat up down low, his guy seems to be able to usually just outmuscle him. He's lost on offense, but still has good instincts when he has the ball. He has postives, shot-blocking, rebounding, agility. But he's still raw.

Afflalo on the other hand, should get 4 minutes in each half, but with Hayes and Hermann out there now, honestly its hard to get him minutes.

[HeroicKennedy]

Besides, Maxiell didn't get consistent burn last year, and look how he turned out. Most players need a year with the team (a full year) before they can contribute. Prince and Maxiell got very little playing time their first year with the club.

There's very little reason to play Amir right now.

[OneBadMutha]

Guys seriously. I know we want to develop our young talent, but I don't understand why people think he's ready to play.

He's not ready to be great but he'll never be ready to be anything more than a garbage time player in Detroit if they don't put him on the floor. The guy obviously shows upside but right now the game moves too fast for him. It won't slow down for him by sitting.

With that said, Primo isn't ready to play. At least Amir has upside, will contest shots, will get some rebounds, and may find some garbage around the basket. Primo is just another jump shooter -- but he's the 5th shooter when he's on the floor so his ability is made irrelevant.

[OneBadMutha]

Besides, Maxiell didn't get consistent burn last year, and look how he turned out. Most players need a year with the team (a full year) before they can contribute. Prince and Maxiell got very little playing time their first year with the club.

There's very little reason to play Amir right now.

Maxiell didn't develop because he sat on the bench. He'd be even further along with more burn in his first two seasons.

Amir is now in his 3rd season. At some point a team has to **** or get off the pot with a player. Being a Human Victory Cigar is never a good way for a player to get better.

[Master Shake]

-= original quote snipped =-



Maxiell didn't develop because he sat on the bench. He'd be even further along with more burn in his first two seasons.

Amir is now in his 3rd season. At some point a team has to **** or get off the pot with a player. Being a Human Victory Cigar is never a good way for a player to get better.

He's basically a rookie, those first two years was just a learning process for him, acclimating him to be ready for this year. You gotta bide your time in this league, nothings given, be patient and earn it. Amir will, not this year though.

The kid doesn't understand defensive rotations at all. Period. Thats really important to play in the NBA. Look at guys like Brandon Wright, Spencer Hawes, all lottery big men this year, relatively same age as Amir, they gotta bide their time and get acclimated. This is Amir's first year being a player that dresses on a nightly basis. How many 20 year old's are tearin through the NBA right now...?

[HeroicKennedy]

Maxiell didn't develop because he sat on the bench. He'd be even further along with more burn in his first two seasons.

Amir is now in his 3rd season. At some point a team has to **** or get off the pot with a player. Being a Human Victory Cigar is never a good way for a player to get better.

Sometimes just being around the other players is learning enough, especially if you keep an open mind.

Amir's in his first full season with the Pistons, so this is basically his rookie season, in my eyes (yeah he played at the end last year but it didn't matter), so he still needs to learn. If Flip says he needs to improve his jumpshot, that's what he should be working on. If he needs to work on his rotation, he should practice that, too. He can't just do on-the-job learning his entire start. He isn't Stuckey, he isn't NBA ready. Give him some time.

Worry about his playing time when he's in his third year and he still hasn't cracked the rotation.

[Champs04bigshot]

The pistons have a very deep bench and are playing eight or nine guys a night what can afflalo do that hayes and stuckey cant on the defensive end stuckey is averaging about two steals a game and is learning how to run the offense and can create for himself and others. Hayes has been a great addition over the last couple years we have needed a backup three and we got one that can d up and shoot. Afflalo cannot do anything on the offensive end and to me at the defensive end stuckey is playing the passing lanes and creating energy and hayes has played good defense all year with stuckey coming along and hayes theres no need to make sure this guy gets minutes.

[srt4b]

I just think that every blames Flip, when it could be *gasp*

The team as gotten old.

Billups is 31
McDyess is 33
Wallace is 33
Rip is soon to be 30

This team isn't the same team it was 3-4 years ago, both in members and in ability.

Flip has done a solid job coaching this team, when most coaches would have struggled to keep them in the top ten.

Now, playing Amir may be a solution, but what really may be the underlying problem is Joe's unwillingness to part with those who are loyal to him. McDyess' expiring would have brought in good trades, Billups isn't worth a $12 million dollar a year contract, Tayshaun's extension was very overpriced, etc.

Instead, he relies on rookies and unproven players to step up, then wonders why things don't work out. If you play Amir, Stuckey, Afflalo, and Maxiell at the same time, you are basically playing 4 rookies. At which point, you're going to have to accept that your team may need to rebuild.

But whatever. RAWR FLIP SUX.

lawl, so many things wrong here......

[princeofpalace]

I really dont think Afflalo is in the doghouse at all. It really has more to do with trying to get Stuckey acclimated with the starters, Afflalo raked up DNP's when Stuck first came back. However, now Flip is going to Afflalo a little more. The problem is though, that when both Stuckey and Afflalo are in the backcourt the offense stagnates forcing Flip to remove Afflalo and insert Rip back into the backcourt. Stuckey is much more effective with Rip out there in place of Afflalo although that will change once both rookies become more familiar with the game. I would like to see Afflalo play more but I think that time will coem soon.

Now onto Johnson. You really cannot make the case that Flip doesnt like rookies, as he is playing both Stuckey and Afflalo. However, I do think that Joe D forced Saunders hand about throwing Stuckey to the wolves when he first returned because I rememer reading an interview about how Saunders wanted Stuckey to ease into it and then all of a sudden he was playing substantial minutes. Now- both Stuckey and Afflalo appear to be more than solid defenders, which is part of the reason that they have earned their minutes. At this point, Johnson is not capable of defending the 4/5 spot because of his size and that may be a factor in why he's not playing atleast Brezec can hold his position. However, Johnsons' length and speed may help offset any problems with his lack of size and Saunders should atleast play him when the team looks like crap and especially against smaller lineups. As for Johnson, he needs to keep his head up and work out his frustrations in the weight room.

Now I make my case for Hermann- Fabio plays solid D, he hustles, rebounds and can hit a J. There is no reason why he shouldnt play because he brings much needed energy to the game and maybe Flip is starting to see his value over Brezec. Tay looked terrible out there, I dont remeber if Hayes even played but Hermann with his ability to play the 3/4 spots should see some time especially in games where our forwards suck (like last night).

This is how the rotation should look

Billups(32)/Stuckey(17)
Rip(33)/Afflalo(11)/Stuckey(4)
Tay(32)/Hayes(15)/Hermann(1)
Dice(10)/Maxiel(19)/Hermann(9)/Johnson(10)
Sheed(30)/Dice(14)/Maxiel(4)

Dices minutes fall back to about 25- where it was last year, theres no reason he needs to play 30 mpg with so many viable PF options out there. Maxi see some time at C- yeah he's undersized but I remember watching the Houston game and seeing that he's had some sucess at C and its should only be against the teams backup C. As long as he brings his power game he will be fine for spot minutes at the C.

Both Johnson and Hermann see an average of 10 mpg, more depending on matchups and if Tay/Hayes/Dice start to suck, As much as I love his enthusiasm Brezec completely falls out of the rotation as he really adds nothing.

Detroit has a lot of depth at almost every postion, there is no reason why the starters should continue to play when the absolutely suck. I do think Flip is getting a bit better with his rotations but he needs to get a lot better and hopefully he can do that over the remainder of the season. Last night was an example of bad sub patterns no reason to have Dice out there to get abused by Dirk when Hermann was containing him. Saunders needs to man up and bench the starters when they mess up