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http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080201/COL22/802010426/1051

Rosenberg makes an interesting point. Of course, since 2004 the rules have changed not allowing perimeter defenders to be so effective, and you have to take into account the changes in team defense philosophy. But still our last 2 playoff exits were at the hands of Wade and LeBron, 2 guys we relied on Prince to contain. Is Prince and his defense missing Ben Wallace more than anyone else?

I think you make the key point while posting the link. You can't play defense like you could prior to the 2004 championship. One thing you can rely on is if the Pistons win a championship based on great defense the league will change the rules. It happened with the Bad Boys and right after the last one.

Apparently, holding down their superstars is bad for the league. Only the biggest stars are allowed to play physical defense these days. The last Lebron vs Kobe matchup showed that. If Prince were to try to play Kobe like that he'd be fouled out in about six possessions. You have to wonder why none of these scribblers won't express even a little shock that the Lakers were allowed to play a much more physical game on the Piston's home floor. If you don't have one of the annointed you get no slack.

I agree, but i don't think the rule change is the only factor here. Some perimeter defenders like Bowen have been able to remain effective, despite the rule change and him and the Spurs team defense did a good job containing the LeBron and Nashes of the league on the way to the title last year.
Boston and Orlando this year have exposed Detroit

Ben made those arms seem even longer. Now that he is gone, we are witness to the extent of Tays defense. Last night he repeatedly left Rad open for jumpers And this is supposed to be the guy that shuts down perimeter shooters. Just like many other people, I am disappointed in Tays D.

tay was never that good defensively. The difference was with Ben he could play and arm length away and bother the jumpshot because the perimeter player was already worrying about driving to the rim. Now they have no fear of driving to the rim. So now they attack and can step back to create separation. Tayshaun doesn't have the footspeed to stay with the quick penetrators that Rip does, say. Problem is Rip doesn't have the strength to hang with them, either. So now Prince has to contain hard charging penetrators and he drops back, leaving the jumpshot more open than ever. Whereas before he could bother players who wre thinking jumper all along.

you speak the truth prophet

Prince was a top-notch defender. You all keep repeating that it was Ben Wallace's shot blocking that made Prince great. Correlation does not imply causation. Did you actually watch Prince play back in the day? He was great at times.

Go ahead. Keep repeating it. But people in the know in the NBA have regarded Prince as a strong defender for a long time. This year, is he worse? Maybe. But don't rewrite the past.

Yeah, Prophet is right. Tay was never strong enough to take advantage of the old rules. Even in those days, big physical guys like Stephen Jackson and Al Harrington regularly caused him a lot of trouble. Now it seems like there are more athletes of that type among our rivals.

Edit: not to say he's a bad defender, but Tay is best at using spacing to capitalize on his length and help defense. The other thing is, he doesn't seem as mentally tough and consistent as he used to be. Seems like he lets the refs or a bad offensive night bother him.

Dirtgrain wrote:Prince was a top-notch defender. You all keep repeating that it was Ben Wallace's shot blocking that made Prince great. Correlation does not imply causation. Did you actually watch Prince play back in the day? He was great at times.

Go ahead. Keep repeating it. But people in the know in the NBA have regarded Prince as a strong defender for a long time. This year, is he worse? Maybe. But don't rewrite the past.

No way, it definitely is a combination of the loss of Ben and the rule changes. The rule changes really did kill us though, because stopping hand checking, really made us lose some intensity on defense. And players literally were scared to drive to the hole against us with both Wallace's patrolling the paint. That way, Prince was able to play really tight on his man and his length played more of a factor because Prince could get close enough to not worry so much about the drive to the basket. Now without Ben there, Prince has tp play a little bit further back because he isn't the quickest defender and this allows for his man to either hit an easier jump shot, or drive to the basket and make a pass, ala Pierce to Big Baby.

Correlation does not imply lack of causation either. The fact that Prince was a very effective defender 3 years ago is not in question.
Why he was effective and why is the slide we're seeing happening is the issue here. It

Dirtgrain wrote:Prince was a top-notch defender. You all keep repeating that it was Ben Wallace's shot blocking that made Prince great. Correlation does not imply causation. Did you actually watch Prince play back in the day? He was great at times.

Go ahead. Keep repeating it. But people in the know in the NBA have regarded Prince as a strong defender for a long time. This year, is he worse? Maybe. But don't rewrite the past.

Tayshaun Prince is a strong defender, but defensive stopper? No, he's not. He isn't a stopper any more and he was never capable of being a stopper in the day, either. He was more protected by a bruising Pistons defence that allowed them to corral an offensive player and funnel them into two shotblockers.

Remember, we're not talking about him being unable to cover anybody any more. He can, but it's the dynamic wing players with size. Those are problems for him. He can bother an Artest with his length, but a player who can shift directions and still bull like a Lebron or a Pierce. He can't bottle those guys up any more. See, Bowen, in contrast can still do that for the most part because he has Tim Duncan back there and another centre. Do you really believe Bowen would be a lockdown defender on the Knicks, for example?

prophet_of_rage wrote:Tayshaun Prince is a strong defender, but defensive stopper? No, he's not.

Okay, I can see that now--but he was a stopper in the past (everybody benefits from having a shot blocker on the team, but that only goes so far--it's not as if teams just give up--they do still try to go inside). He flat out boggled players with his wingspan. If you've ever gone up against a player with a freakish wingspan, then you know. You have to completely change the way you play (how you pass the ball, how you can dribble, how you can initiate drives, how close you can get to the defender). On a side note, Dumars has been drafting and bringing in long-arm players as a goal, I think. It's a big part of his strategy (the two Wallaces, Prince, Maxiell--all have the long arms). It makes the court a lot smaller for the opponents on offense.

Bowen cheats like a mofo. I don't know why the refs look the other way--I guess they just think that's his game and that they have to let him do what he does. He is a great defender, but I'm not sure how he'd do if the refs caught some of the tricky stuff he does. And we block as many shots as the Spurs do, so what does that mean?

Legacyinthemakin89c, Pierce took 3-4 steps on that drive when he dished to Big Baby at the end of that game, so I don't blame Prince on that one. In the first Boston game, Prince defended Pierce well. Also of note, if you're heavily focusing on statistics, is that Prince's backup is Jarvis Hayes. I still remember one of the Washington games when Caron Butler ate Hayes alive. Butler looked so confident, and he was demanding the ball and going straight to the hole and scoring. Prince came in and that stopped. Butler's shooting stats were good, but they came at the expense of Hayes, not Prince. Gerald Wallace did blow by Prince in the last game, I think. He was looking like McGrady--but faster. Rip couldn't keep up with him, either.

Every time I looked to see who was covering Nocioni in the last Chicago game, it wasn't Prince, so I'm not sure if Prince covered him much.

We should keep a running tally of players who dominate Prince:
- LeBron James (who can cover him so well? And he really got away with using his off arm to push/steer defenders out of the way when he played us in the finals last year--but that's probably going to be a given. I didn't think Bowen was the biggest factor in James not doing as well in the finals--James just seemed to back off0.
- Paul Pierce (tough cover when he's on for any defender. But I think Prince is a great matchup for him)
- Who else?

Torkoglu.