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We have a thread for the rookies, and a thread about Herrmann vs. Hayes... but we need a thread for Amir.

Amir had a good preseason but suffered an ankle sprain that should have sat him out no more than a game or two.

After that, Flip didn't want to play him and did so sparingly. We watched the Pistons head to a 29-14 record (0.674 winning %). January 23rd, Out of the blue (thanks Joe D. ), Flip Saunders started playing Amir in the rotation consistantly.

Since January 23rd Amir has played in 20 of 21 games. His only "DNP-CD" came in the loss against Utah which Flip Saunders admitted was a mistake after being blasted by the media and fans.

In those 20 games, Amir has averaged 4.8 pts 4.7 rebs 0.7 asts 0.5 stls 1.8 blks on 61% fg in 15.4 mpg. In those twenty games the Pistons have gone 17-3 for a 0.850 winning %.

Please tell me again, how Amir has proven to be a liability and we are better off giving his minutes away to Ratliff??

Yes, Amir got abused by Garnett.... all of our frontcourt players did that game, but that is moot. Amir also went head to head with Shaq and didn't back down. He's played against Marcus Camby, Eddie Curry, David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Chris Kaman, Jeff Foster, Troy Murphy, Al Horford, Dwight Howard, DeSagana Diop, Eric Dampier, Dirk Nowitzki, Emeka Okafor, LaMarcus Aldridge, Sam Dalembert, Reggie Evans, Drew Gooden.... and done okay for himself. That is valuable learning experience that he couldn't have gotten watching from the bench and the team hasn't suffered when he's been outn on the floor against these big men.

Since acquiring Ratliff, Amir has logged 10, 20, and 12 minutes the last three games. I don't see how it's really affected his playing time.

That being said, we really need a big body in the middle to clog up the lane when other teams attack. Ratliff, while not as mobile or athletic, is that big body, and it helps him alter shots. Someone brought up some good points about Theo, and I'll have to look for them.

Also, I think it's a bit unfair to assume that Joe D. has his hands in everything roster related (as in, who plays and who doesn't). If you're going to credit Joe with getting Amir Johnson in the rotation, then you should also blame Joe for Hayes staying in the rotation and Herrmann not replacing him. You should blame Joe for having Dixon take all of Afflalo's minutes.

Did you ever stop and think for one minute that Flip may have been telling the truth? That Amir hadn't been ready for a rotation spot until then, and it was less of a "Joe D forced Flip to do it" and more of a "Joe and Flip agreed that it was time for Amir to play"?

Yeah I think were all expecting too much too fast from Amir. The kid has loads of potential, but we're treating him like he was an early first round pick and he wasn't. There was a reason we got him in the 2nd round and all of the other teams passed on him. He's still very raw and its to take a lot more until he is a solid NBA caliber player.

I don't expect him to play at all in the playoffs, with Ratliff and Maxiell taking a lot of his minutes. He's a big part of our future, but we can't expect the world from this kid just yet, which I think we do sometimes.

Did you ever stop and think for one minute that Flip may have been telling the truth? That Amir hadn't been ready for a rotation spot until then, and it was less of a "Joe D forced Flip to do it" and more of a "Joe and Flip agreed that it was time for Amir to play"?

What is Amir doing now that he wasn't doing then, besides getting consistant playing time? Amir has always had good timing on shotblocking and has always rebounded nicely based off of pure athleticism. Amir still isn't getting any plays called for him and barely attempts more than 2-3 shots per game. Amir is still getting called for alot of "having no reputation" fouls.

What did Amir learn from January 21st to January 23rd that suddenly made him a better player deserving of playtime every game that the day before he did not learn or show?

As for Afflalo and Herrmann, I agree with you completely. If Joe wanted them in the rotation, they would be.

Right now Dixon is playing to see what he's capable of, so I'll give it a few more games. Hayes has no reason to be in the game over Herrmann.

Most of us can agree on that and Joe D has basically made it clear that he wants Herrmann back next year but never said anything about bringing Hayes back.

This thread isn't about Afflalo/Hayes/Dixon/Herrmann.... it's about Amir and what he has shown since Flip suddenly woke up one morning and decided, what the hell, let me change my whole philosphy and play the young guy that I've hated on and called out publicly for the past two years, maybe I've been wrong.

A big challenge is integrating him into the offense. The starters rarely go to him and the second unit often jacks up shots without giving him a touch or a chance to get in position. Watching Theo get several jump hooks yesterday was encouraging, because it establishes an option that Amir might be able to fill as well.

As far as Joe is concerned, I'm convinced that he had a hand in Amir's entry into the rotation. What makes Amir different from Hayes/Herrmann/Dixon is that he's a young kid that management thinks can be a big part of the team's future. The other guys are just bit players in the long run. So yes, I think Joe more or less said to Flip, "Play the kid."

Amir's been great, but his two biggest deficiencies at this point are fouling like crazy and not scoring much. Yes, some of the fouls are no-reputation calls, but most are just him reaching, being foolish, or being too aggressive and not playing solid contain defense. That doesn't worry me, as most kids iron those things out of their games over time. Even if he doesn't, he's still a dynamic shot-blocking and rebounding force.

The lack of scoring is a little more worrisome. He doesn't really have an identity, offensively. He's too weak to back most guys down, but he doesn't have the handle or jumpshot to be an effective face-up player yet. The handle shows some promise, but it's not there yet. I fear that he'll be a garbage-point guy, for the most part.

This is Amir's version of Maxiell's 2006-2007 season. He's finally in the regular rotation and is showing flashes.

Even if Amir never generates much offensive skill for himself, he would still be a rich-man's Renaldo Balkman. Certainly worth the contract and the draft pick, if you ask me.
If he can develop into the player capable of guarding skinny Cs (Camby), most PFs, and tall SFs (say, Marion), along with his typical blocks and steals, any offense is a bonus.

HeroicKennedy wrote:Since acquiring Ratliff, Amir has logged 10, 20, and 12 minutes the last three games. I don't see how it's really affected his playing time.

Sheed also hasn't played in 2 of those 3 games, so I'm not sure that is an accurate measuring stick. Theo's minutes have to come from somewhere. Hopefully he'll take a few of Dices', but it's likely one of Maxiell or Amir will see a reduced role and possibly both.

Honestly, I don't think it's nuts to suggest that Amir has legitimately leapfrogged Maxiell, at least recently. Maxiell's got more experience, obviously, but it's not like he's free of dumb mistakes himself (missed dunks, missed defensive rotations, goaltends, silly fouls). Unless he gets the "it" factor back, and soon, I'd be playing Amir ahead of him anyways.

He has consistently played well and has the size to contend out there. Cutting a few of Dice's minutes and having Amir/Theo be the primary bigs off the bench, with Max as a situational/energy guy, would be fine by me for ~5-8 games. Thoughts?

ADM wrote:Honestly, I don't think it's nuts to suggest that Amir has legitimately leapfrogged Maxiell, at least recently. Maxiell's got more experience, obviously, but it's not like he's free of dumb mistakes himself (missed dunks, missed defensive rotations, goaltends, silly fouls). Unless he gets the "it" factor back, and soon, I'd be playing Amir ahead of him anyways.

He has consistently played well and has the size to contend out there. Cutting a few of Dice's minutes and having Amir/Theo be the primary bigs off the bench, with Max as a situational/energy guy, would be fine by me for ~5-8 games. Thoughts?

Part of the reason why I've always wanted to move Maxiell. His ceiling is too low, and he can't learn the SF position. I think that some team lacking front-court depth may send us a good G-F to use next year.

Because, if Ratliff continues to be an asset for the team, I'd seriously consider signing him to a two year deal, drafting a prospect center to go along with Samb, and seeing how things pan out.

Amir should play regardless of whether Ratliff is on the team or not. He is just as good a player as is. AJ has a bit more versatility defensively and is a better rebounder and energy guy, where as Ratliff gets is a better post defender and gets more respect from officials. IMO, we are too deep to have any big guy outside of Sheed playing more than 20 minutes or so.

For the regular season, the way I see it...

PF- Dice (15mpg) / Maxiell (17mpg) / Amir (16mpg)
C- Sheed (25mpg) / Ratliff (17mpg) / Dice (6mpg)

That gives pretty equal distribution of minutes, and gives Sheed/Dice the rest they need for the stretch run. The playoffs are obviously a different story, though I think you need to get Amir and Max in the games for spurts.

In the offseason, either Max or Dice will need to be moved (preferably for a decent SF). Bring back Theo, and give AJ 20mpg at minimum.

I'm not really for starting Amir because of the play he gives etc etc. While it's fun and exciting to watch him bring energy to the Pistons, I think it serves better coming off the bench.

I do think we should start Amir for a 10-game stretch because it would bring credibility to his game and probably lower the fouls called on him in the future (even when he is brought off the bench). They can call a bench player for as many fouls as they want when it's their first year getting real minutes, but if it's a starter, I think the refs would be more hesitant to whistle him.

BDM22 wrote:Amir should play regardless of whether Ratliff is on the team or not. He is just as good a player as is. AJ has a bit more versatility defensively and is a better rebounder and energy guy, where as Ratliff gets is a better post defender and gets more respect from officials. IMO, we are too deep to have any big guy outside of Sheed playing more than 20 minutes or so.

For the regular season, the way I see it...

PF- Dice (15mpg) / Maxiell (17mpg) / Amir (16mpg)
C- Sheed (25mpg) / Ratliff (17mpg) / Dice (6mpg)

That gives pretty equal distribution of minutes, and gives Sheed/Dice the rest they need for the stretch run. The playoffs are obviously a different story, though I think you need to get Amir and Max in the games for spurts.

In the offseason, either Max or Dice will need to be moved (preferably for a decent SF). Bring back Theo, and give AJ 20mpg at minimum.

I'd have no problems with that, but I don't expect to see Sheeds minutes drastically reduced anytime soon. Dice either for that matter. Flip has tunnel vision when it comes to certain players and for whatever reason he gets locked into roles & minutes.

Everyone's arguments hinge on how many minutes you think Theo will be getting once Sheed is back in the line up. Considering Dice's last few games have been abysmal on the offensive end, I think we'll be seeing his minutes cut substantially during the next 2-3 weeks. This isn't my ideal line up, but I think it's the most realistic:

Dice (20) / Maxiell (18) / Amir (10)
Sheed (32) / Theo (12) / Dice (4)

Obviously these aren't going to be consistent game in and game out, but thats what I think they'll average out to during the next 2-3 weeks.

I'm not calling for Amir to be a starter, right now. I just think that Amir has proven himself in limited minutes to be a contributor on this team and I don't want to see him glued back on the bench, just because Theo was brought in to be a defensive presence for the playoffs.

I agree with ADM, I wouldn't mind seeing Amir getting the minutes behind Dice and seeing Max in limited minutes for energy spurts. I think the big jump in minutes has really fatigued Maxey and Dice already this year. That is why we see the dip in production. Maxiell with his missed dunks and Dice missing his automatic 15 footers.

If anyone had said before the season that Amir would average close to 5 pts 5 rebs and 2 blks on 60+% fg% in 15 mins off the bench... going against guys like Shaq, KG, Dirk, Camby.... we all would have jumped on that. And yet we're still hearing that he is the most likely to sit out because another vet was brought in to play over him.

I'm all for moving Maxey in the off-season, maybe along with our first rounder to move up 5-6 places sorta deal. Maxey is nothing more than a back-up PF in the NBA on a good team.

Low-Ki wrote:I'm all for moving Maxey in the off-season, maybe along with our first rounder to move up 5-6 places sorta deal. Maxey is nothing more than a back-up PF in the NBA on a good team.

I wouldn't mind that at all.

I was actually hoping that Joe would trade Maxx to a team for a future first-rounder, regardless of how we do in the playoffs. I'd actually prefer it be for a '09 or '10 since we can probably get more value for him that way and we already have solid looking prospects stockpiled for the immediate future. Anyways, there should be a lot of takers for a baby eater like Maxx.

Plus I'd like to re-sign Theo to be the 5th big man behind either Hardin, Dorsey, or whoever we draft (hard to go wrong with that pick).

I would love to reduce Sheed's minutes to around 25 per and Dice's to 20 or less. We could cite injury concerns for Sheed and, well, the truth for McDyess: we're trying to incorporate Ratliff into the lineup and figure out how Amir and Maxiell will play into things in the post-season. That leaves 17 minutes per game to go between the three bench bigmen.