The Barry Bonds debate

[Suneel Joshi]

Without even weighing in on the Bonds issue itself, I gotta say that it's the ballboy who's right about expression of opinion, discussing sports issues with respect for fellow posters, etc.

510 - You have some quality to your posts (and all are well written and formulated), but the tone is pretty condescending and the insults are unnecessary. You'll probably come at me for this, but I gotta weigh in as someone who just read the debate neutrally.

[edney2polynice_]

-= original quote snipped =-



Last I checked (and as I discussed earlier in this thread), the standard for criminal conviction is "beyond a reasonable doubt." I'm not sure what country you live in, but in this country, it's certainly not "any evidence at all."

Way to ignore the question I posed to you, what evidence do they have on Bonds?

[FNQ]

Without even weighing in on the Bonds issue itself, I gotta say that it's the ballboy who's right about expression of opinion, discussing sports issues with respect for fellow posters, etc.

510 - You have some quality to your posts (and all are well written and formulated), but the tone is pretty condescending and the insults are unnecessary. You'll probably come at me for this, but I gotta weigh in as someone who just read the debate neutrally.

Naw... I come at people who call me a jerk for trying to entertain my home board with a game thread poking fun at Bonds. As far as edney goes, I dont think I've been condescending to him. Calling a moderator a jerk, out of the blue, for saying Bonds did this to himself? Not a great way to introduce yourself.

I defenitely was condescending, but where did I insult him?

Anyhow.... if anyone can come up with a reason how this isn't Barry's own fault, I'd like to know it...

And edney -- evidence enough, is Bonds said he did use the clear and cream, regardless of whether or not he knew it (which as was posted in a prior thread, is a pretty tough sell that he DIDNT know it). That's the only fact I know personally, but I do believe there is more, such as his 'helping' Gary Sheffield, and the obvious physical changes... I dont want to buy the book to get informed either (the 2 guys who wrote it, IMO, are no better than the paparazzi).

One other thing... this seems to be about the asterik. But the thing is, the government can't control what baseball does with its records. I guess my point is, that maybe the court of public opinion will outweigh the US courts and their decision. If most people in the business, and in the country, believe Bonds deserves that little * by his name, it'll be there, regardless of anything else.

[edney2polynice_]

-= original quote snipped =-



Naw... I come at people who call me a jerk for trying to entertain my home board with a game thread poking fun at Bonds. As far as edney goes, I dont think I've been condescending to him. Calling a moderator a jerk, out of the blue, for saying Bonds did this to himself? Not a great way to introduce yourself.

I haven't felt that you were being condescending towards me; just good & solid debating.

Anyhow.... if anyone can come up with a reason how this isn't Barry's own fault, I'd like to know it...

Everyone has contributed to this problem, the fault does not fall onto one person.

The MLB new about steroids, and turned their heads when ratings skyrocketed after the players strike nearly ruined baseball. Steroids have been around since the 40's, don't tell me they didn't know about it.

The media has not been fair & balance towards Bonds, nor has Bonds been fair to the media.

Everyone can take a piece of this pie.

And edney -- evidence enough, is Bonds said he did use the clear and cream, regardless of whether or not he knew it (which as was posted in a prior thread, is a pretty tough sell that he DIDNT know it). That's the only fact I know personally, but I do believe there is more, such as his 'helping' Gary Sheffield, and the obvious physical changes... I dont want to buy the book to get informed either (the 2 guys who wrote it, IMO, are no better than the paparazzi).

It's tough to show that as evidence because the clear & cream could've been anything.

The before & after comparisons of Bonds' size is faulty logic. I don't even have to explain this one.

One other thing... this seems to be about the asterik. But the thing is, the government can't control what baseball does with its records. I guess my point is, that maybe the court of public opinion will outweigh the US courts and their decision. If most people in the business, and in the country, believe Bonds deserves that little * by his name, it'll be there, regardless of anything else.

There will never be an asterisk, never.

[FNQ]

As far as the physical aspect of Bonds goes, I'm no anatomist or whichever field would specialize in the body's reaction to steroids, but I don't think your head grows a couple cap sizes once your past 21. Its not concrete evidence, just speculation, but of course its a giant red flag.

And to think that the cream and clear was anything but that is playing lawyerball... again thats more of a US Courts thing than a public opinion, and as interleague play proves, MLB panders to public opinion.

But the more pressing thing for me is who's fault this is.... there's a delicate system in the entire US, not just for baseball, for all sports, for movies, and for TV. The media is the outlet for celebrities to reach the general public. By upsetting the media, which essentially is the key to you being a celebrity, you are playing with fire. Bonds decided early on in his career that he wouldn't pander to the media and wouldn't give them what they wanted. He upset the balance of celebrity~media. Now the entire scandal is being put on his shoulders by the media, because they really don't want to put it on anyone else. Giambi has been good to them, he gets minimal negative publicity. Anyone talking about Sammy's alleged (re: obvious) usage? Or Sheffield? Anyone remember Rafael Palmiero?

The MLB's stance is what it should be... why would they cop themselves out to knowing what was going on, when they don't have to? The media has already decided who's going to take the worst bumps for this one, and to be honest, Bonds hasn't really done much to improve baseball, post-strike, by being so abrasive and controversial.

Basically, Barry took the risk of upsetting the media, and now its come back to bite him on the ass. It also goes to show the power of the media, as Bonds is completely villified for his usage, and every time he hits a HR, someone mentions roids. I dont think its the same for Sammy and Giambi.

[Ex-hippie]

-= original quote snipped =-
Way to ignore the question I posed to you, what evidence do they have on Bonds?

Grand jury testimony.

Lots and lots of it in the book that you (incorrectly) think has been discredited in its entirety because a few of its sources didn't check out.

You previously said that if there were any evidence at all, Bonds would have gone down by now. You were way, way off base, and I called you on it. Why should I answer the question that everyone knows the answer to when you're making ridiculous statements?

Even you said you think Bonds probably took steroids -- yet you insist that there's no evidence of this! So if there's no evidence, you're just completely making things up? How did you base your opinion if there's no evidence?

[34Celtic]

As The MLB's stance is what it should be... why would they cop themselves out to knowing what was going on, when they don't have to? The media has already decided who's going to take the worst bumps for this one, and to be honest, Bonds hasn't really done much to improve baseball, post-strike, by being so abrasive and controversial. .

If Bonds was McGwire or Sosa in '98 we would all feel very differently about it. Did anyone really believe Mack and Sosa weren't on something...come on now.

[FNQ]

-= original quote snipped =-


If Bonds was McGwire or Sosa in '98 we would all feel very differently about it. Did anyone really believe Mack and Sosa weren't on something...come on now.

Come on now what? That exactly proves my point... Sosa and McGwire were media darlings. The media obviously isn't stupid, they saw everything we did. Even when McGwire was brought to the stand and very painfully dodged every question about his own usage, did the media attack? No... minimal coverage, a blurb or too, and back to Bonds.

Why? Because McGwire gave them the interviews and the good-natured story that everyone wanted. Bonds was a jerk from homerun #1. Hell, when Sosa got caught with a corked bat, it lasted all of about what, 3-4 weeks? Do you think anyone would let it go if it were Bonds?

[FNQ]

UPDATE: Bonds is now making statements about keeping memorbilia that ought to go into the HOF (his HR bat, helmet, other little things) saying that 'he needs to take care of himself'.

Not trying to improve his stormy media relations... a bad apple to the end. Expect more anti-Bonds news in the near future...

[edney2polynice_]

UPDATE: Bonds is now making statements about keeping memorbilia that ought to go into the HOF (his HR bat, helmet, other little things) saying that 'he needs to take care of himself'.

Not trying to improve his stormy media relations... a bad apple to the end. Expect more anti-Bonds news in the near future...

What's the big deal? MLB turned their back on Bonds', so he turns his back on them.

Anyways, like it matters -- Bonds is accepted with open arms in SF.

[FNQ]

Eh Bonds was doomed from the start... the media controls who the public likes and dislikes... MLB had no choice but to distance themselves from Bonds. You'd think with his old age and breaking a storied record, he'd be promoting the game... It's all about being a man about it, if he actually tried being cool w/the media, I think the record would have been the story rather than what will be the story... the asterisk...

[edney2polynice_]

Eh Bonds was doomed from the start... the media controls who the public likes and dislikes... MLB had no choice but to distance themselves from Bonds. You'd think with his old age and breaking a storied record, he'd be promoting the game... It's all about being a man about it, if he actually tried being cool w/the media, I think the record would have been the story rather than what will be the story... the asterisk...

They had a choice, and they chose to cover their a$$. Anyone who thinks MLB didn't know about steroid use amongst their players are naive. Sosa & Big Mac brought excitement back to baseball. Now that the witch hunt is in full throttle, they turn their back on a guy who has never even tested positive for steroids.

Being cool with the media? The media has more scumbags within its organization than a prison full of pedophiles.

The asterisk will never be.

[34Celtic]

-= original quote snipped =-



They had a choice, and they chose to cover their a$$. Anyone who thinks MLB didn't know about steroid use amongst their players are naive. Sosa & Big Mac brought excitement back to baseball. Now that the witch hunt is in full throttle, they turn their back on a guy who has never even tested positive for steroids.

Being cool with the media? The media has more scumbags within its organization than a prison full of pedophiles.

The asterisk will never be.

Best post ever. MLB knew about steroids, Bud Selig as well, he's lying to our faces right now. This is why I don't care who used steroids and won't discount what anyone has done. Pitchers have done it too, and all we care about are the home run hitters. Barry Zito said it best...i'll take a guy like Barry Bonds on my team (the two actually get along very well) over a guy who is great with dealing with the media and a ''good guy'' over a guy who will hit .250 with 15 HR 50 RBI.

Clemens was asked a question about the media turning things into a negative heres a quote from an article

[FNQ]

Basically, the media is a bunch of self-rightous jerks who know little about the game. If the media treats you right, the players will treat them right as well....its not a one way street.

Completely backwards... the media holds all the cards... you and edney can be in denial of it, if you like, but there are several players in the MLB who did the exact same thing as Bonds, and only one player is getting the media's ire... the guy who didn't play by the rules.

I mean, I dont think you realized you said it edney, but you said everything correctly, just leaving out the part where Bonds ignited the whole fire that's now roasting him. The one thing Bonds should realize now is that it's never too late, especially with the media... a few kind gestures, smiles, apologies, and all of a sudden Bonds is a mature guy who was misunderstood, wanted his privacy and went about getting it in the wrong way, and he becomes this tragic hero of steroids while he becomes HR king...

Instead he says this, showing how stubborn and rockheaded he was until the very end... as someone who met Willie Mays (baseball camp, 1994, with McCovey and Cepeda - how cool was that!) and saw how genuine he was - he actually stayed after camp to sign autographs and talk with all his fans - I can't imagine his family's legacy wouldn't help the media accept him more as well.

Bottom line is, you can't really pity the guy when at any time, he can suck it up and change all of it. As far as the asterisk goes, since MLB isnt federally regulated and doesn't need anyone's approval to set their rules, by distancing himself further from MLB, he's not exactly making their decision hard whether or not to take away from Bonds' record...

[edney2polynice_]

...The plot thickens:

http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiret ... go_public/

[edney2polynice_]

...The plot thickens:

http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiret ... go_public/

I hope he does, I can't wait to see how little (if any) evidence they have against Bonds. It's starting to look as bad as the Duke lacrosse case. I wonder how long it will be until the government files charges...against the prosecutors.