2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question

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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#261 » by Icness » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:54 pm

As someone who was involved in scouting, why are the 40-yard numbers so important? Unless you're Al Davis, I don't see why anyone would go "well he's an average football but he can run fast ... first round pick". We see guys go up and down the charts every year based on 40 time alone and it just seems weird to discredit hours of game tape over a brisk sprint


Here is how I was taught Combine scouting, by a GM that assembled a team that went to a Super Bowl:
--40 yard dash is important only for CBs and WRs and return guys
--the first 10 yards is the most critical number for everyone
--compare/contrast the 40 time with the short shuttle time. If they are the same or very close, the player is straight-line speed and not quick. That can work at WR but means a LB or a RB is too stiff
--for linemen, the 10 yard split is all that matters but the short shuttle time is far more important
--broad jump and 3-cone drill are good measures of overall athleticism, vertical is indicative of explosive athletic prowess. They are used only to reinforce game tape, not override it

Some draftnik (I sadly don't remember who and I can't find it on Google) did a fantastic article last draft season about the correlation between fast 40 times but not great short shuttle times with pass rushers and corners and how almost all the players that fit in that have been disappointments if not outright busts. Like, if a corner ran a 4.38 40 but his short shuttle time was 4.37, he's a stiff sprinter and not flexible or agile and was less likely to succeed than a corner who ran 4.5 in the 40 but 4.39 in the short shuttle.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#262 » by Bucksfans1and2 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:53 pm

Icness wrote:Compensatories usually get announced the second day of the Combine, which would be next Sat.


Any word on the comp picks??
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#263 » by SpeedyG » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:02 am

Icness wrote:
CJ_18 wrote:
SpeedyG wrote:Agree too. Hate that my Jags are sitting at 7 on a 6 man draft. Then again, 2004 was supposed to be an 8 man draft, with the Jaguars taking Reggie Williams at 9. Then guys like Ben R. and others surprised.


Who were the 8 guys? (would like to know so we can see how they actually turned out)


Wow, that predates me writing for RealGM and was the year before I was employed by one of the scouting services.
The 2004 top 20 picks:
Eli Manning
Robert Gallery
Larry Fitzgerald
Philip Rivers
Sean Taylor
Kellen Winslow
Roy Williams
Deangelo Hall
Reggie Williams


Yep, heading in, a lot of hype were about the QBs (Eli/Rivers), the (supposedly) best tackle prospect in years in Gallery, best WR prospect in Fitz, a freak of nature at Safety in Taylor, a match-up nightmare with NFL pedigree in Winslow, and a WR with size/speed in Roy Williams and a shutdown potential at CB in Hall.

Jags were left with Reggie Williams at 9.

But looking at Ic's list, clearly there were players drafted after those in the top 10 that emerged to be better than those in the top 10.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#264 » by Icness » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:08 am

Bucksfans1and2 wrote:
Icness wrote:Compensatories usually get announced the second day of the Combine, which would be next Sat.


Any word on the comp picks??


I'm not in Indy but I haven't heard anything from anyone about them. Just spent 20 minutes on the phone with a regional scout and he didn't mention it.

Scout told me his head coach is "head over heels in love" with Dontari Poe. This team picks between 10 and 15 and if the draft were tomorrow he would be their pick...if he's still even there.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#265 » by CJ_18 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:40 am

Iceness.. with the DBs up tomorrow I have a couple observations/questions.

With the NFL game evolving more and more to a pass first league where spreads are used often.. you'd think that there would be an increasing demand for safeties who can cover alot of ground in zone, cover slot recievers, etc. Shut-down corners are nice but when teams are attacking with 4 WRs, shutting down the #1 seems to be not nearly as important. Rather the emphasis would be on getting versatile defenders like Safeties who can cover slots, play zone, cover tight ends to eliminate them as huge mismatches, etc.

However, it seems like these days, finding an elite Safety prospect is rare, especially compared to elite corners. Obviously guys from both positions have made names for themselves in the league who weren't referred to as 'blue chip' guys in the draft but looking at this years drafts and drafts from the last 10 years, you'd be hard pressed to find many elite versatile safety prospects that i described above compared to corners. Like this year you have guys like claiborne, jenkins and kirkpatrick as top level cover corners and ONE safety projected to go first round.. Mark Barron and he's considered more of an in the box/run supporter type. Over the last 10 years looking at 'elite' prospects (Elite = guys who had a top 15 overall ranking )

2012
CB- Claiborne, Kirkpatrick
S- None

2011
CB Peterson (Smith, Amukanora on the edge)
S None

2010
CB Haden
S Berry, Earl Thomas

2009
CB Jenkins, Vontae Davis
S None

2008
CB- DRC, (McKelvin, Mike Jenkins on the edge)
S- Kenny Phillips?

2007
CB Leon Hall, Revis on the edge
S Landry

2006
CB Cromartie
S Michael Huff

2005
CB Antrel Rolle, Carlos Rogers, Pacman
S None

2004
CB Hall
S Taylor

2003
CB Trufant, Newman
S Polamalu

I guess my point is that theres been more top level corners than safeties, but the ultimate point is we have HARDLY EVER seen a Safety prospect who is able to do all the things that coaches would ask for in todays NFL.

Honestly.. in my opinion..
Berry- One guy who is able to do everything. He's a good one.
Thomas- too small to match up with certain guys
Phillips- Solid.. can do most things you ask for.
Landry- Imposing hitter but often lost in coverage, can't cover man to man effectively.
Huff- ....
Taylor- A freak that was able to do everything.
Polamalu- Effective in what he does. Can cover well.

So in the last 10 drafts.. I count 3 guys (Berry, Taylor, Polamalu, maybe Phillips) that were elite prospects coming in that teams drafting high who were in need of a versatile Safety could've gone after.

Iceness could you just give me your opinion and rate the safeties I listed above in terms of how good they were as prospects?

And i guess my other question would be.. Why the lack of elite prospects at a position that seems to have increasing demand based on the evolution of today's game? Even looking ahead next year I don't see any safeties that are considered 'elite' right now. Are safeties just guys that teams feel like they can target later in the draft (and/or convert Corners to Safeties)?
Thank you for your time
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#266 » by Icness » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:40 am

Safeties that can cover are in HUGE demand but it's not a skill that a lot of safeties have. Part of the reason is because HS players that are safeties are generally kids that are linebackers that are too small. If they can really cover in HS, they get moved to corner either there or when they get to college. Most of the top-notch collegiate safeties started as corners but outgrew the position.

There have been a few bigger college corners that have moved to safety in the NFL. Antrell Rolle, Malcolm Jenkins, Dashon Goldson started as a corner, among others.

Some of what you are saying about so few safeties having the complete package is a function of the position too. Most teams have one safety that plays in the box and focuses on the RB or FB on every play, by design. The other safety is almost never in man coverage but rather providing over-the-top help or playing centerfield and trying to read the play on the fly. If they are asked to isolate in coverage on a tight end or a slot receiver it's almost always in some form of a zone shell (Rolle is an exception, he's a press man specialist as a nickel corner masquearading as a safety). Coaches are scared to have most safeties play straight man coverage even on tight ends in part because it means the outside receivers are isolated on just one CB.

I'll do the rankings off the top of my head going back to 2005 as I saw them coming out. Polamalu and Taylor pre-date my professional scouting career but I do recall thinking Polamalu was overrated. Still do.

1. Eric Berry
2. Michael Griffin. I was a huge fan, another converted CB.
3. Laron Landry
4. Earl Thomas
5. Michael Huff
6. Donte Whitner
7. Nate Allen
8. Louis Delmas
9. William Moore
10. Jason Allen, ironically now a corner

I was never a Kenny Phillips guy nor a Brandon Meriweather guy. Tyrell Johnson probably fits in at the bottom of that list too and I'll still maintain he's the best blitzing safety of the last 8 drafts, though the Vikings have somehow never used him in that capacity.

George Iloka actually played some outside corner for Boise last year at his size and that really bolsters his value. Barron is not a real coverage safety. Christian Thompson from SC State and Jeremy Jones from Wayne State are small-school guys in this draft that played some corner in college but will be safetes in the NFL and have strong coverage potential.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#267 » by B Mac » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:20 pm

I've reached that frustrated point where I just want to fast forward to after the draft to see how much my Browns paid to get RG3.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#268 » by Icness » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:16 pm

B Mac wrote:I've reached that frustrated point where I just want to fast forward to after the draft to see how much my Browns paid to get RG3.


I really don't see them doing it. Maybe Holmgren will surprise me but IMO they are far more likely to sign Flynn or Campbell to beat out McCoy and use their picks on WR and RB.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#269 » by takeit2dahouse00 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:04 pm

Iceness..

Any information on the Dolphins draft and who they have been focusing in on?

Also, any information on Manning/Flynn? Where do you see them ending up?
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#270 » by Icness » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:18 pm

takeit2dahouse00 wrote:Iceness..

Any information on the Dolphins draft and who they have been focusing in on?

Also, any information on Manning/Flynn? Where do you see them ending up?


Too early to nail down specific players for teams in the draft. Of course I am working on a mock draft as I write that...

Here's what I know about Miami:
Your owner craves spotlight and desperately wants to make a big splash. Matt Flynn is a small wave, but Peyton Manning is a tsunami of a splash. RG3 is too, maybe even moreso. I think we will have the draft done before we know where Manning is going, so RG3 gets first crack at being the guy. Not sure they have enough to give up to compete with Washington to trade up.

I still think Peyton Manning is never going to play again. I will stand by that until proven otherwise. If he were truly close to being back, don't you think we would see some *cough*leaked video*cough* or talk from the guys he's working out with that this was the case? Manning is calculated as hell and the lack of any of that says a lot to me.

Flynn to Cleveland is my pick, just a fairly educated guess though. They will not give up anything to get him, so if GB tags him he will be somewhere else.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#271 » by Crowned » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:53 pm

Any word on who the Ravens are looking at? Any particular positions they're looking to fill right from the get go?
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#272 » by hermes » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:53 pm

any vikings news? it seems everyone has them going with kalil at 3, which i think would be really good but where do they look for the rest of the draft?


and what are the odds that the colts stun everyone and go with RG3 over luck
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#273 » by Icness » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:55 pm

Crowned wrote:Any word on who the Ravens are looking at? Any particular positions they're looking to fill right from the get go?


The Ravens are not shy about looking at OL and WR. I've heard they are huge Dont'a Hightower fans too.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#274 » by Icness » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:59 pm

hermes wrote:any vikings news? it seems everyone has them going with kalil at 3, which i think would be really good but where do they look for the rest of the draft?


and what are the odds that the colts stun everyone and go with RG3 over luck


To answer the second one first, 0.00% chance they don't take Luck. It wouldn't surprise me if you hear details of a deal very soon after the final salary cap number is set.

I wouldn't put Kalil to the Vikings in pen yet. Justin Blackmon is still in play, Claiborne is in play. Look at their corners and WRs relative to the rest of their division, they're so far behind in both (even the Bears at WR) they have to consider them. I do think ultimately it will be Kalil though.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#275 » by CJ_18 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:13 am

Ic is the idea that Patrick Peterson is more of the freak/athlete/playmaker than Morris Claiborne who is more of a fundamentally sound/technique guy accurate? Is there anything else to it? And please tell me who you would rate higher as a prospect.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#276 » by Icness » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:57 pm

CJ_18 wrote:Ic is the idea that Patrick Peterson is more of the freak/athlete/playmaker than Morris Claiborne who is more of a fundamentally sound/technique guy accurate? Is there anything else to it? And please tell me who you would rate higher as a prospect.


I think it's very accurate. PP took a lot of chances--by design--at LSU; they wanted him to make big plays and gamble. Some of that is because they had Claiborne on the other side and PP would get more opportunities at them than most top shelf college CBs, some of it because they have a strong group of safeties. PP as a technical cover man isn't real good; he's not good at jamming despite his size and he doesn't anticipate routes well. That showed at Arizona last year, though he did improve. Claiborne can play press man or off man and is very good at stickign on the hip of his man and disrupting angles. He's no slouch with the ball in the air but he's not a dynamic athlete like PP.

Claiborne ranks higher as a corner but PP adds so much value as an elite return man that it probably washes out, maybe even tilts to PP a little. I'm a fairly recent convert to the opinion that top 10 picks should go to big impact and PP makes a bigger impact on the game.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#277 » by Bucksfans1and2 » Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:43 am

Is Joe Long an interesting prospect? He's clearly not half the player his brother is, but half of Jake is still a pretty good player.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#278 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:49 am

Claiborne is better in pure coverage at the same point, but PP is soooo incredibly athletic, and he's shown that he is willing and able to get better. I believe he's still going to grow a lot technically, and add that to his overwhelming physical package.
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#279 » by Da Schwab » Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:19 am

Two questions, both in regards to your latest mock:

You've got the Saints taking Brock Osweiler in the second round, is that purely an insurance pick, or are they that afraid of not being able to get a long term deal done?

And...

You've got the Packers taking Russell Wilson in the third. Do you think they'd use him for some trickery, or is he just another backup insurance pick as well?
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Re: 2012 Ask Jeff Risdon a Question 

Post#280 » by Icness » Mon Mar 5, 2012 5:11 am

Da Schwab wrote:Two questions, both in regards to your latest mock:

You've got the Saints taking Brock Osweiler in the second round, is that purely an insurance pick, or are they that afraid of not being able to get a long term deal done?

And...

You've got the Packers taking Russell Wilson in the third. Do you think they'd use him for some trickery, or is he just another backup insurance pick as well?


There are teams that genuinely like Osweiler. Most of those teams are led by offensive-oriented coaches. Some of it is insurance, some of it is I think they're looking for a better option at #2.

Wilson would be the backup QB. He's basically Matt Flynn with a better arm, only shorter. Plug and play.
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