Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[Crazy-Canuck]

Maybe the kings are smelling a Kuminga deal getting closer. They just signed westbrook.... another guard.

[whatisacenter]

Maybe the kings are smelling a Kuminga deal getting closer. They just signed westbrook.... another guard.

Did he actually sign with the Kings?

Schroeder/Westy is a weird combo.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Maybe the kings are smelling a Kuminga deal getting closer. They just signed westbrook.... another guard.

Did he actually sign with the Kings?

Schroeder/Westy is a weird combo.

Not officially, but apparently its close.

Schroeder, westbrook, monk, carter, ellis, kavine, and Clifford

That's a lot of guards.

[statsman]

Maybe the kings are smelling a Kuminga deal getting closer. They just signed westbrook.... another guard.

Did he actually sign with the Kings?

Schroeder/Westy is a weird combo.

Not officially, but apparently its close.

Schroeder, westbrook, monk, carter, ellis, kavine, and Clifford

That's a lot of guards.

The Warriors' blueprint.

[Onus]

Even then, I think it makes more sense to have a 6'8" forward instead of one of those guards. Maybe jk isn't that forward, I can see that hesitation. I would rather keep Ellis and move moody, podz, or both. But we have the latter two and Ellis sounds like he'd be expensive, for a rental.

It's a good question about what do I expect to see in the first half of year 5 than I didn't see over the first 4. I want to see jk play with the core 3 (4, if we're counting horford). It didn't seem to work when jk came back but it was a playoff like environment and Steve didn't have time to fafo. It seemed like the Jimmy/JK pairing wasn't gelling but when they had to go to it in the Minny series, it looked better. With an off-season, preseason, and training camp, I'm hopeful they can find something.

Even if not, jk can still lock down a good role as the 6th man/bench scorer. If it's superfluous, we will have an easier time moving him on Feb, once the byc stuff evaporates. Edit: I'm also looking to see who becomes available in Feb as the current crop of rumors isn't what we need.

Maybe it's more of the same but I don't see anything being discussed that makes us impactfully better, despite liking keon, in a vacuum. Podz for keon? Sure. For our only wing scorer, rim finisher , and one of two people that actually draws fouls, I'd want something that would fit better. Giving Kerr 6 guards to choose from seems like asking for trouble.

I also think jk is our best on-ball option when guarding the league's most dynamic matchups. Ant, luka, Shai , etc are too big for our non-dray defenders and, for me, dray is best as a free safety, not the on -ball stopper. JK has massive flaws but when we talk about him, all we discuss are the flaws. Most of our roster has similarly obvious flaws but we have learned to put them in a position to minimize the flaws and maximize the talent. JK (and moody) are two players the team seems to have a harder time doing that for.

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

The difference in year 4, Butler was also a high level defender coming in 10th for DPOTY, meaning he was exerting a ton of energy on the defensive end usually having the toughest assignments. Before that breakout year for Butler, HE BUSTED HIS ASS TO GET ON THE COURT. His first 3 years he was basically a defensive specialist who didn't even average 10 FGA per36. Butler was willing to do anything to play because he wanted time and thought he was good enough to make a difference anywhere on the court, Kuminga just wants to be top option and if he feels good about his shots, he also will try to play defense. Basically if the team who owns his rights doesn't placate him, they're not going to get the best from him because he wants to play how he wants to play, not how the coach wants him to play. The only way you can live with a player like that is by them being so dominate you have to overlook the issues and Kuminga isn't that good, he's good but not good enough to do just what he wants to do, THATS NOT WINNING BASKETBALL, you have to coach around what a player won't do which usually hurts the team, like not moving the ball around in hopes of getting one of the greatest players in the NBA a good look.

You think Kuminga has it bad in GS, G.Forman (former Bulls GM) went to Butler after his 3rd season with an extension that was a small bump in pay and told Butler if you don't sign this contract I'm having you buried on the bench as we develop your replacement, Butler said no and bet on himself and Thibodeau kept playing him (one of the reasons the FO tried for years to get the owner to fire him). If Kuminga would have given good effort on defense, rebounded and didn't hijack the offense so much I bet he would have seen way more minutes in GS.

If you look at Butler's calculated ORTG, you'd see it's one of the highest in the league for non role-player for most of his career since becoming an all-star his 4th year, but in recent years it's went up to Jokic levels. In the playoffs, he tries to continue to play this way until one of the major scorers go out, in the bubble run to the finals Miami's top scorer G.Dragic got hurt and even Bam ended up hurt in the ECF and Finals. In the surprising upset of Giannis and Bucks Herro went out in the 1st half of game 1 so Butler picked up the slack but this isn't how he wants to play unless he absolutely has to or gets to the point he's talking **** on the court.

Season - JB Cal ORTG | Jokic Cal ORTG
24-25 136 - 133
23-24 129 - 131
22-23 136 - 134
21-22 124 - 126
20-21 123 - 130
19-20 123 - 119

There's a reason why Butler makes teams better without scoring a bunch (although when pushed can if healthy) he has low TOs which equates to more shots, plays good defense, gets steals which takes away possessions from the other team and is a good playmaker.

I agree with most of that except, and I quote, again:

"Kuminga just wants to be top option and if he feels good about his shots, he also will try to play defense."

From everything I've seen over these 4 years, he just wanted to play and not lose minutes to the Anthony Lambs and Gui Santoss of the world. Particularly, in high leverage situations like the playoffs and the closing minutes of RS games. Not this "top option" narrative.

The situation is no longer the same. The GSW decided they could still play meaningful basketball with Curry still at a high level by bringing in Butler (which they were proven right) vs wasting the rest of Curry's years hoping Kuminga could develop into a good top of the roster option. When Butler was brought in, GS should have tried moving Kuminga (but he was hurt). Kuminga came back to a team that was rolling and instead of finding a way to be a cog in the machine he wanted to do his own thing. To me he prioritized himself over the team which would be fine if he were talented enough it doesn't matter but at this time he isn't, he's just a good scorer who didn't seem willing to adapt to a role that was best for the team (it was never best for the team for Kuminga to call his own number with 12+ seconds on the clock at the top of key with Curry on the floor). I think had Kuminga came in and just played his role, GS would be extending him for a number he liked because he does have potential and he proved he'll do what is needed for the team. At this point right now, Kerr can't draw up an offense and expect it to be ran properly with Kuminga out there. It's really that simple.

Is he great on defense? No. He is, however, pretty competitive and, on ball, has often been our best option on a variety of stars. Including being the best on-ball defender on ant AND randle, in these playoffs. His problems lie off ball and other areas and his effort does wane. I think it's less the shots he's getting that the minutes but we can agree to disagree on that for the most part, I have on issues with his defensive effort, on-ball. It's his bball IQ on defense, mostly off ball and screen navigation, that is the current issue.

This is what I saw in Wiggins with Butler in Minnesota, he just lost his concentration too much off the ball on defense which is a problem that is easily fixed by concentring.

Wiggins was bad, here's an image back in Minnesota where for whatever reason he's just staring at someone in the crowd (he was not talking to anyone nor looking at the ref) with his man easily going backdoor on him for an easy score. Wiggins HAD the ability and it took a huge wakeup call by no longer being coddled in Minnesota and being traded to a team who had a history of being great where he could only screw it up so he figured out his role in time.

Spoiler:

Is he flawed? Yes. But he also finishes around the rim and gets to the line at elite levels. Elite. He doesn't yet have a good balance in terms of his shot selection and struggles from the line, once he gets there. He's also 22 and we're looking at signing him for 30% above the current mid level exception. Could he rebound better and do more of what Kerr wants? Yes. Should we sign him to a discount in a depressed market for RFAs? Also, yes.

You can have some elite skills and still not be a good fit for a team to utilize. To properly utilize Kuminga you're going to have to change the roster around him to best make use of his abilities to win and he's honestly not that level of a player and probably won't ever be. He's got too much talent to be a roleplayer but he's not dominate enough to have a team built around him and unless he develops GREATLY or accepts a lesser role, he could be a journeyman in the league and quite possibly overseas after his next contract.

On this last season, Kuminga's situation changed after Butler was not only traded for, but the organization made a huge financial investment in him. The organization went all in to play meaningful basketball which whether or not you agree with it, the decision was made. Kuminga was hurt, saw that the team was thriving after this trade and instead of just finding a role to help the team he just called went back to calling his own number. IMHO, Kuminga wasn't playing to win, he was playing for his next contract even if that ment it would hurt the team. If this is also what the FO thought, they also may think unless we placate to the player, especially if we invest a substantial contract in him, he may not give us 100%. Butler somewhat went through the same thing last year but Butler has a history of great play that can lead a team to the finals, last season it seems the FO made the decision to pivot from Butler, didn't extend him, the offense was changed in the preseason to highlight Herro's skills and with that, Butler knew he'd look bad in that system and it would hurt his next contract so he forced his wa;y out. This is basically the situation Kuminga is in but doesn't have the leverage or history Butler had.

On Santos playing over Kuminga, it's because Santos is a limited player and as a coach, you know pretty much how he'll play, with Kuminga, as a coach you have an idea what he "could" do but you also know he's going to do what he wants so you either accept that or you don't play him, a bad coach would have just played him because they may not have a history of winning basketball, a coach who wants to win, has a winning history and has the organization behind him wouldn't/didn't.

[AirP.]

Even then, I think it makes more sense to have a 6'8" forward instead of one of those guards. Maybe jk isn't that forward, I can see that hesitation. I would rather keep Ellis and move moody, podz, or both. But we have the latter two and Ellis sounds like he'd be expensive, for a rental.

It's a good question about what do I expect to see in the first half of year 5 than I didn't see over the first 4. I want to see jk play with the core 3 (4, if we're counting horford). It didn't seem to work when jk came back but it was a playoff like environment and Steve didn't have time to fafo. It seemed like the Jimmy/JK pairing wasn't gelling but when they had to go to it in the Minny series, it looked better. With an off-season, preseason, and training camp, I'm hopeful they can find something.

Even if not, jk can still lock down a good role as the 6th man/bench scorer. If it's superfluous, we will have an easier time moving him on Feb, once the byc stuff evaporates. Edit: I'm also looking to see who becomes available in Feb as the current crop of rumors isn't what we need.

Maybe it's more of the same but I don't see anything being discussed that makes us impactfully better, despite liking keon, in a vacuum. Podz for keon? Sure. For our only wing scorer, rim finisher , and one of two people that actually draws fouls, I'd want something that would fit better. Giving Kerr 6 guards to choose from seems like asking for trouble.

I also think jk is our best on-ball option when guarding the league's most dynamic matchups. Ant, luka, Shai , etc are too big for our non-dray defenders and, for me, dray is best as a free safety, not the on -ball stopper. JK has massive flaws but when we talk about him, all we discuss are the flaws. Most of our roster has similarly obvious flaws but we have learned to put them in a position to minimize the flaws and maximize the talent. JK (and moody) are two players the team seems to have a harder time doing that for.

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

You give up some rebounding because of size to hopefully make the other team miss more with good defense, not just good switchable defense but being quick enough to help out and rotate on defense. At that point you're hoping your smaller players will block out well trying to nullify some of the other team's size. But it is true, if you can get the same play from 2 different players, obviously you'll want the bigger player.

[Onus]

Even then, I think it makes more sense to have a 6'8" forward instead of one of those guards. Maybe jk isn't that forward, I can see that hesitation. I would rather keep Ellis and move moody, podz, or both. But we have the latter two and Ellis sounds like he'd be expensive, for a rental.

It's a good question about what do I expect to see in the first half of year 5 than I didn't see over the first 4. I want to see jk play with the core 3 (4, if we're counting horford). It didn't seem to work when jk came back but it was a playoff like environment and Steve didn't have time to fafo. It seemed like the Jimmy/JK pairing wasn't gelling but when they had to go to it in the Minny series, it looked better. With an off-season, preseason, and training camp, I'm hopeful they can find something.

Even if not, jk can still lock down a good role as the 6th man/bench scorer. If it's superfluous, we will have an easier time moving him on Feb, once the byc stuff evaporates. Edit: I'm also looking to see who becomes available in Feb as the current crop of rumors isn't what we need.

Maybe it's more of the same but I don't see anything being discussed that makes us impactfully better, despite liking keon, in a vacuum. Podz for keon? Sure. For our only wing scorer, rim finisher , and one of two people that actually draws fouls, I'd want something that would fit better. Giving Kerr 6 guards to choose from seems like asking for trouble.

I also think jk is our best on-ball option when guarding the league's most dynamic matchups. Ant, luka, Shai , etc are too big for our non-dray defenders and, for me, dray is best as a free safety, not the on -ball stopper. JK has massive flaws but when we talk about him, all we discuss are the flaws. Most of our roster has similarly obvious flaws but we have learned to put them in a position to minimize the flaws and maximize the talent. JK (and moody) are two players the team seems to have a harder time doing that for.

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

You give up some rebounding because of size to hopefully make the other team miss more with good defense, not just good switchable defense but being quick enough to help out and rotate on defense. At that point you're hoping your smaller players will block out well trying to nullify some of the other team's size. But it is true, if you can get the same play from 2 different players, obviously you'll want the bigger player.

If we really need to rebound horford is going to play. If we need to rebound, JK isn't playing since he doesn't rebound and rarely boxes out. So "big wing" jk isn't going to solve that specific issue. I do think he has some uses but rebounding isn't one of them.

And while I do think it would be nice to have a bigger poa defender so that Jimmy/Dray don't have to do it all game/year, that's why you bring in Simmons to give them a break throughout the year.

[Onus]

Maybe the kings are smelling a Kuminga deal getting closer. They just signed westbrook.... another guard.

Did he actually sign with the Kings?

Schroeder/Westy is a weird combo.

Not officially, but apparently its close.

Schroeder, westbrook, monk, carter, ellis, kavine, and Clifford

That's a lot of guards.

Apparently they're looking to trade monk or carter to bring in westbrook.

[Senchu]

JK is Monta Ellis. Change my mind.

[whatisacenter]

Even then, I think it makes more sense to have a 6'8" forward instead of one of those guards. Maybe jk isn't that forward, I can see that hesitation. I would rather keep Ellis and move moody, podz, or both. But we have the latter two and Ellis sounds like he'd be expensive, for a rental.

It's a good question about what do I expect to see in the first half of year 5 than I didn't see over the first 4. I want to see jk play with the core 3 (4, if we're counting horford). It didn't seem to work when jk came back but it was a playoff like environment and Steve didn't have time to fafo. It seemed like the Jimmy/JK pairing wasn't gelling but when they had to go to it in the Minny series, it looked better. With an off-season, preseason, and training camp, I'm hopeful they can find something.

Even if not, jk can still lock down a good role as the 6th man/bench scorer. If it's superfluous, we will have an easier time moving him on Feb, once the byc stuff evaporates. Edit: I'm also looking to see who becomes available in Feb as the current crop of rumors isn't what we need.

Maybe it's more of the same but I don't see anything being discussed that makes us impactfully better, despite liking keon, in a vacuum. Podz for keon? Sure. For our only wing scorer, rim finisher , and one of two people that actually draws fouls, I'd want something that would fit better. Giving Kerr 6 guards to choose from seems like asking for trouble.

I also think jk is our best on-ball option when guarding the league's most dynamic matchups. Ant, luka, Shai , etc are too big for our non-dray defenders and, for me, dray is best as a free safety, not the on -ball stopper. JK has massive flaws but when we talk about him, all we discuss are the flaws. Most of our roster has similarly obvious flaws but we have learned to put them in a position to minimize the flaws and maximize the talent. JK (and moody) are two players the team seems to have a harder time doing that for.

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

35+ is their age not the amount of minutes they should be playing, they are going to be a year older, not a year better.

Jimmy and Draymond are both at their best playing free safety and watching them on defense against the Wolves was borderline embarrassing. Slow to close out on shooters, struggling to keep their man in front of them and getting beat in the post.

And adding Ben Simmons to a roster that already can't shoot seems nuts.

[Onus]

Even then, I think it makes more sense to have a 6'8" forward instead of one of those guards. Maybe jk isn't that forward, I can see that hesitation. I would rather keep Ellis and move moody, podz, or both. But we have the latter two and Ellis sounds like he'd be expensive, for a rental.

It's a good question about what do I expect to see in the first half of year 5 than I didn't see over the first 4. I want to see jk play with the core 3 (4, if we're counting horford). It didn't seem to work when jk came back but it was a playoff like environment and Steve didn't have time to fafo. It seemed like the Jimmy/JK pairing wasn't gelling but when they had to go to it in the Minny series, it looked better. With an off-season, preseason, and training camp, I'm hopeful they can find something.

Even if not, jk can still lock down a good role as the 6th man/bench scorer. If it's superfluous, we will have an easier time moving him on Feb, once the byc stuff evaporates. Edit: I'm also looking to see who becomes available in Feb as the current crop of rumors isn't what we need.

Maybe it's more of the same but I don't see anything being discussed that makes us impactfully better, despite liking keon, in a vacuum. Podz for keon? Sure. For our only wing scorer, rim finisher , and one of two people that actually draws fouls, I'd want something that would fit better. Giving Kerr 6 guards to choose from seems like asking for trouble.

I also think jk is our best on-ball option when guarding the league's most dynamic matchups. Ant, luka, Shai , etc are too big for our non-dray defenders and, for me, dray is best as a free safety, not the on -ball stopper. JK has massive flaws but when we talk about him, all we discuss are the flaws. Most of our roster has similarly obvious flaws but we have learned to put them in a position to minimize the flaws and maximize the talent. JK (and moody) are two players the team seems to have a harder time doing that for.

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

35+ is their age not the amount of minutes they should be playing, they are going to be a year older, not a year better.

Jimmy and Draymond are both at their best playing free safety and watching them on defense against the Wolves was borderline embarrassing. Slow to close out on shooters, struggling to keep their man in front of them and getting beat in the post.

And adding Ben Simmons to a roster that already can't shoot seems nuts.

Who won't be able to shoot on the new roster

Curry/Podz/Carter
Ellis/Melton/Buddy
JB/Moody
Dray/Simmons/Gui/Knox
Horford/Post/TJD

Only JB, Dray, Simmons, Carter and TJD don't shoot. We would only be playing 2 of them at a time at the most. Moody, Podz, Horford, Knox, and Gui are probably average shooters and everyone is great to elite shooters.

35 mpg is fine in the playoffs.

[AirP.]

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

35+ is their age not the amount of minutes they should be playing, they are going to be a year older, not a year better.

Jimmy and Draymond are both at their best playing free safety and watching them on defense against the Wolves was borderline embarrassing. Slow to close out on shooters, struggling to keep their man in front of them and getting beat in the post.

And adding Ben Simmons to a roster that already can't shoot seems nuts.

Who won't be able to shoot on the new roster

Curry/Podz/Carter
Ellis/Melton/Buddy
JB/Moody
Dray/Simmons/Gui/Knox
Horford/Post/TJD

Only JB, Dray, Simmons, Carter and TJD don't shoot. We would only be playing 2 of them at a time at the most. Moody, Podz, Horford, Knox, and Gui are probably average shooters and everyone is great to elite shooters.

35 mpg is fine in the playoffs.

Simmons doesn't want to play as a big, he wants to handle the ball as a PG and isn't really willing to change, somewhat like Kuminga both are talented but don't want to be role-players (there's probably a lot more money to be earned by Kuminga to not be a role-player in his career, even if his career is shorted because of it). If Simmons could channel his inner Boris Diaw.

[vvoland]

Even then, I think it makes more sense to have a 6'8" forward instead of one of those guards. Maybe jk isn't that forward, I can see that hesitation. I would rather keep Ellis and move moody, podz, or both. But we have the latter two and Ellis sounds like he'd be expensive, for a rental.

It's a good question about what do I expect to see in the first half of year 5 than I didn't see over the first 4. I want to see jk play with the core 3 (4, if we're counting horford). It didn't seem to work when jk came back but it was a playoff like environment and Steve didn't have time to fafo. It seemed like the Jimmy/JK pairing wasn't gelling but when they had to go to it in the Minny series, it looked better. With an off-season, preseason, and training camp, I'm hopeful they can find something.

Even if not, jk can still lock down a good role as the 6th man/bench scorer. If it's superfluous, we will have an easier time moving him on Feb, once the byc stuff evaporates. Edit: I'm also looking to see who becomes available in Feb as the current crop of rumors isn't what we need.

Maybe it's more of the same but I don't see anything being discussed that makes us impactfully better, despite liking keon, in a vacuum. Podz for keon? Sure. For our only wing scorer, rim finisher , and one of two people that actually draws fouls, I'd want something that would fit better. Giving Kerr 6 guards to choose from seems like asking for trouble.

I also think jk is our best on-ball option when guarding the league's most dynamic matchups. Ant, luka, Shai , etc are too big for our non-dray defenders and, for me, dray is best as a free safety, not the on -ball stopper. JK has massive flaws but when we talk about him, all we discuss are the flaws. Most of our roster has similarly obvious flaws but we have learned to put them in a position to minimize the flaws and maximize the talent. JK (and moody) are two players the team seems to have a harder time doing that for.

If you really want a big wing JB, Dray. Then we can sign either Simmons, Knox, Key or Coffey for "big wing". But really JB and Dray are going to be playing 35+ in the playoffs and Dray will also be playing some center. Big wing isn't all that necessary when those 2 are going to be playing a ton of minutes.

Ant was being guarded by a bunch of 6'5'' and under guards against okc. SGA's toughest matchup was 6'5'' Nembhard. You do not need a 6'8'' wing to guard them.

6 guards for 3 positions (1-3) sounds like a good problem. Especially since they can all shoot now.

This is all contingent on JK being a malcontent and doesn't want to be here. We're offering him the most money and he still doesn't want to sign.

I'd agree if I was convinced that was the case. I don't think it is. Last summer, we were all convinced JK turned down 5/150 until last week, when slater came out and said the dubs didn't extend JK ANY contact as they were more concerned about the BYC stuff than anything else. I say, let's pump the brakes on "we're offering him the most" and just wait til it plays out. All things being equal, I would much prefer JK back on a discount. IF he really is being a malcontent, sure.

Simmmons, Knox, & Key are not the wings I had in mind. At all. They are players I want nowhere near the bench, much less the floor, come Apr/May/June. Coffee? Sure. I'd much prefer Coffee as an addition to JK and not a replacement. Coffee over Gui? Clear upgrade. Coffee over JK? Clear downgrade.

Also, the OKC guards are a great example of what tough guards can do but it's not very replicable. They have dort, caruso, jdub, & wallace who are terrific on ball defenders. The team's strategy was to attack ball handlers and let Chet and iHart clean up their mistakes. We have neither the on-ball hounds that OKC does (and ellis wouldn't change that) and we def don't have the rim protection that would allow our guards to gamble that much (or the guard depth that would allow for the foul trouble).

We have all the tools to build a top 3 defense to compete w/ OKC, I just don't think we'd be able to use the same blueprint.

[Onus]

35+ is their age not the amount of minutes they should be playing, they are going to be a year older, not a year better.

Jimmy and Draymond are both at their best playing free safety and watching them on defense against the Wolves was borderline embarrassing. Slow to close out on shooters, struggling to keep their man in front of them and getting beat in the post.

And adding Ben Simmons to a roster that already can't shoot seems nuts.

Who won't be able to shoot on the new roster

Curry/Podz/Carter
Ellis/Melton/Buddy
JB/Moody
Dray/Simmons/Gui/Knox
Horford/Post/TJD

Only JB, Dray, Simmons, Carter and TJD don't shoot. We would only be playing 2 of them at a time at the most. Moody, Podz, Horford, Knox, and Gui are probably average shooters and everyone is great to elite shooters.

35 mpg is fine in the playoffs.

Simmons doesn't want to play as a big, he wants to handle the ball as a PG and isn't really willing to change, somewhat like Kuminga both are talented but don't want to be role-players (there's probably a lot more money to be earned by Kuminga to not be a role-player in his career, even if his career is shorted because of it). If Simmons could channel his inner Boris Diaw.

That's the thing he would be the nominal pg here. Podz isn't really a pg so we would be able to run a lot of offense through Simmons and he can spray out to shooters similar to JB.

[vvoland]

Spoiler:

The difference in year 4, Butler was also a high level defender coming in 10th for DPOTY, meaning he was exerting a ton of energy on the defensive end usually having the toughest assignments. Before that breakout year for Butler, HE BUSTED HIS ASS TO GET ON THE COURT. His first 3 years he was basically a defensive specialist who didn't even average 10 FGA per36. Butler was willing to do anything to play because he wanted time and thought he was good enough to make a difference anywhere on the court, Kuminga just wants to be top option and if he feels good about his shots, he also will try to play defense. Basically if the team who owns his rights doesn't placate him, they're not going to get the best from him because he wants to play how he wants to play, not how the coach wants him to play. The only way you can live with a player like that is by them being so dominate you have to overlook the issues and Kuminga isn't that good, he's good but not good enough to do just what he wants to do, THATS NOT WINNING BASKETBALL, you have to coach around what a player won't do which usually hurts the team, like not moving the ball around in hopes of getting one of the greatest players in the NBA a good look.

You think Kuminga has it bad in GS, G.Forman (former Bulls GM) went to Butler after his 3rd season with an extension that was a small bump in pay and told Butler if you don't sign this contract I'm having you buried on the bench as we develop your replacement, Butler said no and bet on himself and Thibodeau kept playing him (one of the reasons the FO tried for years to get the owner to fire him). If Kuminga would have given good effort on defense, rebounded and didn't hijack the offense so much I bet he would have seen way more minutes in GS.

If you look at Butler's calculated ORTG, you'd see it's one of the highest in the league for non role-player for most of his career since becoming an all-star his 4th year, but in recent years it's went up to Jokic levels. In the playoffs, he tries to continue to play this way until one of the major scorers go out, in the bubble run to the finals Miami's top scorer G.Dragic got hurt and even Bam ended up hurt in the ECF and Finals. In the surprising upset of Giannis and Bucks Herro went out in the 1st half of game 1 so Butler picked up the slack but this isn't how he wants to play unless he absolutely has to or gets to the point he's talking **** on the court.

Season - JB Cal ORTG | Jokic Cal ORTG
24-25 136 - 133
23-24 129 - 131
22-23 136 - 134
21-22 124 - 126
20-21 123 - 130
19-20 123 - 119

There's a reason why Butler makes teams better without scoring a bunch (although when pushed can if healthy) he has low TOs which equates to more shots, plays good defense, gets steals which takes away possessions from the other team and is a good playmaker.

I agree with most of that except, and I quote, again:

"Kuminga just wants to be top option and if he feels good about his shots, he also will try to play defense."

From everything I've seen over these 4 years, he just wanted to play and not lose minutes to the Anthony Lambs and Gui Santoss of the world. Particularly, in high leverage situations like the playoffs and the closing minutes of RS games. Not this "top option" narrative.

The situation is no longer the same. The GSW decided they could still play meaningful basketball with Curry still at a high level by bringing in Butler (which they were proven right) vs wasting the rest of Curry's years hoping Kuminga could develop into a good top of the roster option. When Butler was brought in, GS should have tried moving Kuminga (but he was hurt). Kuminga came back to a team that was rolling and instead of finding a way to be a cog in the machine he wanted to do his own thing. To me he prioritized himself over the team which would be fine if he were talented enough it doesn't matter but at this time he isn't, he's just a good scorer who didn't seem willing to adapt to a role that was best for the team (it was never best for the team for Kuminga to call his own number with 12+ seconds on the clock at the top of key with Curry on the floor). I think had Kuminga came in and just played his role, GS would be extending him for a number he liked because he does have potential and he proved he'll do what is needed for the team. At this point right now, Kerr can't draw up an offense and expect it to be ran properly with Kuminga out there. It's really that simple.

Is he great on defense? No. He is, however, pretty competitive and, on ball, has often been our best option on a variety of stars. Including being the best on-ball defender on ant AND randle, in these playoffs. His problems lie off ball and other areas and his effort does wane. I think it's less the shots he's getting that the minutes but we can agree to disagree on that for the most part, I have on issues with his defensive effort, on-ball. It's his bball IQ on defense, mostly off ball and screen navigation, that is the current issue.

This is what I saw in Wiggins with Butler in Minnesota, he just lost his concentration too much off the ball on defense which is a problem that is easily fixed by concentring.

Wiggins was bad, here's an image back in Minnesota where for whatever reason he's just staring at someone in the crowd (he was not talking to anyone nor looking at the ref) with his man easily going backdoor on him for an easy score. Wiggins HAD the ability and it took a huge wakeup call by no longer being coddled in Minnesota and being traded to a team who had a history of being great where he could only screw it up so he figured out his role in time.

Spoiler:

Is he flawed? Yes. But he also finishes around the rim and gets to the line at elite levels. Elite. He doesn't yet have a good balance in terms of his shot selection and struggles from the line, once he gets there. He's also 22 and we're looking at signing him for 30% above the current mid level exception. Could he rebound better and do more of what Kerr wants? Yes. Should we sign him to a discount in a depressed market for RFAs? Also, yes.

You can have some elite skills and still not be a good fit for a team to utilize. To properly utilize Kuminga you're going to have to change the roster around him to best make use of his abilities to win and he's honestly not that level of a player and probably won't ever be. He's got too much talent to be a roleplayer but he's not dominate enough to have a team built around him and unless he develops GREATLY or accepts a lesser role, he could be a journeyman in the league and quite possibly overseas after his next contract.

On this last season, Kuminga's situation changed after Butler was not only traded for, but the organization made a huge financial investment in him. The organization went all in to play meaningful basketball which whether or not you agree with it, the decision was made. Kuminga was hurt, saw that the team was thriving after this trade and instead of just finding a role to help the team he just called went back to calling his own number. IMHO, Kuminga wasn't playing to win, he was playing for his next contract even if that ment it would hurt the team. If this is also what the FO thought, they also may think unless we placate to the player, especially if we invest a substantial contract in him, he may not give us 100%. Butler somewhat went through the same thing last year but Butler has a history of great play that can lead a team to the finals, last season it seems the FO made the decision to pivot from Butler, didn't extend him, the offense was changed in the preseason to highlight Herro's skills and with that, Butler knew he'd look bad in that system and it would hurt his next contract so he forced his wa;y out. This is basically the situation Kuminga is in but doesn't have the leverage or history Butler had.

On Santos playing over Kuminga, it's because Santos is a limited player and as a coach, you know pretty much how he'll play, with Kuminga, as a coach you have an idea what he "could" do but you also know he's going to do what he wants so you either accept that or you don't play him, a bad coach would have just played him because they may not have a history of winning basketball, a coach who wants to win, has a winning history and has the organization behind him wouldn't/didn't.

In other words, the 22 year old that was our 2nd best player (by net rating) with Steph & Dray, is too selfish to play with Jimmy? You got all that from a 5 game sample when he came back from injury and was trying to find a rotation spot before the playoffs started. As we were playing playoff-like games for 2 months trying to escape the play-in? I mean, you can draw conclusions from that and react to them. I think it's a bit kneejerk.

I'm not even saying he's a good fit, at the moment, or ever will be. You seem convinced we need to jettison him now, for whatever offer we get, because... he calls his own number and he's not good enough to do so. At least, that's what I'm getting from your arguments.

For me, this team is lacking scoring punch. Especially in high leverage situations like end of games and the playoffs. Particularly finding non-scheme-generated-points. Outside of Steph, and sometime JB, we really have to scheme up our buckets. JK has the potential to help the team solve that issue, as soon as this season. He excels when he plays with shooters and if that's what you mean by, "have a team built around him" I don't think our need for shooting disappears if we trade JK. I do, however, think JK will be amplified if he plays with 3+ shooters. Last year, for example, he was GREAT with Steph/Dray/Podz/ & Moody or Buddy as the 5th. Too bad that lineup got like 10 total minutes, all year. JK also got hurt right as Post was making it up from SC and that's a pairing I'd like to see more: JK/Post/JB/Steph and Dray or Buddy/Moody for defense/offense, respectively.

Onus, I think, asked what am I looked for in year 5 that I didn't see in the first 4. I'm hoping to see JK play with a real stretch 5 (post or horford should mean we have 40 mins of a stretch 5 per game) and other good shooters. I want to see what JK can do with that much space and defenses still having 10 eyes on Steph.

[EvanZ]

Very few players can give all their energy on both ends. The more shots Kuminga would get on offense the worse his defense will get. He's not nearly good enough to put up with that kind of hostage negotiating tactic.