Source: Baron Davis has made inquiries about Knicks

[Subaculta]

The only good big man worth remembering on that list was Webber and I think we all remember how that worked out. Nelson sure has a way with the big men. And with all those championships his big men win!

These lists move you further from the important consideration: Love will be taken before the Warriors draft and you have never seen him play, I believe, but continue to make up all sorts of grand assessments of his game and his fit with the Warriors. You're reading the pro-Love hype about his great skills, from online sources, without giving any attention to the equally voluminous anti-Love hype about his significant NBA deficiencies.

You're entitled to that approach but it won't make Kevin Love anything more than a big risk for the NBA and it certainly won't make him a Warrior. Probably ever. But we'll see.

Hill was an all star (albeit only once), and averaged double-digits in rebounding more then a few times in his career... I wouldn't slight him.

[Chris Cohan]

-= original quote snipped =-


Hill was an all star (albeit only once), and averaged double-digits in rebounding more then a few times in his career... I wouldn't slight him.

You just don't kow when to quit.

Hill was an All Star for Cleveland after he sucked immensely in most Warriors games for his first three years in the league. Hill was too slow for Nelson's run. Nelson made him play center as a 6'9" twig (he got to about Harrington's size eventually). He was good. Just not at all good for Nellie as a C like he eventually would be elsewhere as a PF. His final year as a Warrior, he maxed out at a very familiar 28 MPG and his first double digit rebounding year. Then he was immediately gone to Cleveland for the draft pick that would become Clifford Rozier.

He was a Finals PF in Philadelphia next to Ratliff and co. Nelson never went to the finals, mostly because he will always obsessively want Hill in Ratliff's shoes and some three point shooter in Hill's.

If you're honestly taking up the Nellie knows big guy mantel with the Biedrins playing time in the other thread and now Tyrone Hill's All Star work under Mike Fratello once Nellie was done with him, I just don't know what to say. You've pointed to one of the textbook examples of how terrilbe Nelson has been.

[FNQ]

You'd have to believe in Nellie's word pretty strong to buy into that "I've had bad luck with big men" crap.. he had a great one and ran him off with his gimmick, drafted poorly, and I'm sure his attitude and style w/big men was a huge deterrent in any of them wanting to sign with him.

[Subaculta]

[quote="ROWELL"][/quote]


what does me "quiting" have to do with mentioning that Hill was an all star and averaged double digit rebounds in 4 or 5 seasons?

you decided that the only big man worth mentioning from that list was Webber, and I propose that Hill was a "good" big man... I have no idea what is incorrect about that.

[Chris Cohan]

You were clearly responding to my criticism of Don Nelson (not) doing well with bigmen and hoping you had a good big man counter to what I was saying. Hill was no good for Nelson and got traded BY Nelson for Clifford Rozier, effectively.

Now and then, just admit you're trying to one up me or wrong. I admitted I was wrong once today. You can, too.

[Chris Cohan]

Sorry I didn't say Tyron Hill was good after Nelson was done screwing with him. That might have left you no room for BS.

[Subaculta]

You were clearly responding to my criticism of Don Nelson (not) doing well with bigmen and hoping you had a good big man counter to what I was saying. Hill was no good for Nelson and got traded BY Nelson for Clifford Rozier, effectively.

Now and then, just admit you're trying to one up me or wrong. I admitted I was wrong once today. You can, too.

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong... it's basketball... it's not black and white (no puns intended), its all subject to argument/discussion - hence the message board. If we're twisting this board down to some sort of mental game of "uncle" then we're all losers. If the point was that Nellie doesn't like to draft big men of consequence, then I disagree and bring up Tyrone Hill - who was obviously a worthy player in his career. If your point is that Nelson doesn't like to develop big men. and that Webber is the only exception to that, then that's something altogether different.

[Chris Cohan]

Nelson's only drafted and developed bigman of consequence is Dirk Nowitzki. The math is just that simple.

So whatever you're hoping to accomplish with the definitely OK traditional PF Tyrone Hill as your only defense - a player Nelson did NOT develop to his potential and traded in order to use his considerable big man drafting acumen on Clifford f__king Rozier, just drop it and give up.

There is absolutely no strong counterargument for the fact that Don Nelson and bigmen do not mix.

[Twinkie defense]

It's hard to find good big men where the Warriors have typically picked under Nellie. The year we had number three I thought he picked a pretty good one. Webber's fast exit though (he didn't need much development) was due to a quirk in the CBA at the time - a player option after C-Webb's rookie year. Oops!

And the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons... how many of their big man starters this playoffs were picked by them?

But at the spots the Warriors picked, Hill (#11) and Gatling (#16) were decent players. And we like Wright, right? Typically you don't find great big men late in the draft - Boozer (2nd round) and Amare (at #9) are the exceptions. But we were able to get some pretty great smalls, like Sarunas (6th round!), Timmy (#14), and Spree (#24).

The draft is a crap shoot... what the Warriors really need is to stumble into the #1 spot (like Chicago) in a year when there just happens to be a dominant big to be had (like Shaq, Duncan, Howard, Bosh, LeBron).

[Subaculta]

So whatever you're hoping to accomplish with the definitely OK traditional PF Tyrone Hill as your only defense - a player Nelson did NOT develop to his potential and traded in order to use his considerable big man drafting acumen on Clifford f__king Rozier, just drop it and give up.

so Nick's point was that Nelson HAS drafted big men during his tenure with the Warriors...

the question was not about development, or whether or not they set the basketball world a flame... instead it was whether Nelson has searched for, and drafted big men.

of the big men that Nick sited, you decided to change the discussion - and question their actual skill - noting that only Webber was worth mentioning.

I interjected that a PF that averaged double-digit rebounds (in Nelson's 92-93 campaign), and went on to be an NBA all-star, was worth tossing onto that short list.

Now you want to change the discussion yet again (that Nelson didn't DRAFT and DEVELOP Hill).

so yes you are right -
Webber was the only one that Nelson drafted, and had success while a Warrior.
Hill was traded before becoming an all-star.
and Nelson did infact trade for rookie Nowitzki and develop him.

I guess it's easier to just change the argument to fit your parameters.

[turk3d]

Dirk (for the record) although 7'1 actually played small forward for Nellie his first 4 or 5 years (as did KG his first several years with the T-Wolves). Dirk wasn't really developed to play the big man positions, but to be a shooter. Not trying to get in the argument, just the discussion.

[Twinkie defense]

It's also interesting to note the big men the Warriors have drafted sans Nellie:

Joe Smith - horrible for a number one overall
Todd Fuller (11)
Adonal Foyle (8)
Troy Murphy (14) - this was a good draft for the Warriors
Biedrins (11) - Yes! Best Warriors big man pick since Webber
Ike Diogu (9)
Patrick O'Bryant (9)

I would say two good years out of seven, and not an All Star among them.

[old rem]

You were clearly responding to my criticism of Don Nelson (not) doing well with bigmen and hoping you had a good big man counter to what I was saying. Hill was no good for Nelson and got traded BY Nelson for Clifford Rozier, effectively.

Now and then, just admit you're trying to one up me or wrong. I admitted I was wrong once today. You can, too.

Hill was traded mainly so there was an absurd sum available for the very brief Chris Webber era. Then, a rd 1 was not a fixed price. Nellie went WAY overboard and Webber-who had an ego....was annointed a god and proceeded to play with the powers that come with that status. Oops

The Warriors wasted a pretty good player in Hill...then wasted Rozier even worse. Meanwhile Webber escaped but first turned Sprewell into a manipulative bitch and chronic power tripper.

If you look at the history of this team since the Rick Barry days.....it's evident that the village idiot or the family dog could have had as much success. Old timers like me and Squid (LF) look back at a few decades of remarkable bungles and fumbles spiced with some tough luck and tend to be a bit cynical.

Mullin is above average for a GSW GM...but....hey....he traded Jamison and Damp for just about nothing. He's turned a decade of lotto picks into---what? We reached .500....average. The last 5 GSW draft picks were INVIsiBLE,and we are a youth team,building?

There IS the stuff to have a respectable season AND momentum toward being a contender but there is damn little room for error.

Mullin and Nelson over the next year need to be in peak form.

Mullin is under orders to watch the budget.

Nelli extracts 110% from the players he uses...which is omly half the roster.

What's ahead? It's just a guess. This franchise runs in a zigzag path....or stumbles backwards. We are due for a burst of deep wisdom or at least a little dumb luck.

[St.Nick]

Just to clarify something...Jamison turned into Van Exel which turned into Dale Davis which turned into Baron Davis.

You focus on our last 5 picks as being invisible:

Wright- Clearly will have a role with this team, just need to show some patience with him.

Marco- Inc. grade. Again, wait for year two.

Lasme- Was a 2nd round pick, at best an end of the bench nothing.

POB- A bust. Full credit failure for our FO on that pick.

Diogu- Intergral part of the Indiana trade, although not much of an NBA player apparently.

So those are the last 5 guys. but the three guys before that are Monta, Chris Taft (RIP), and Andris Biedrins.

So from the past eight picks we have drafted:

Biedrins, Monta, Wright--- Very, very impressive picks
Belinelli- Could turn into a role player
Ike- Excellent value on his trade in

Lasme, Taft- Second round picks that didnt work out...big deal
POB- The lone, certifiable, good for nothing bust

I wonder how man NBA teams (not drafting in the top 5 every year) can claim to have picked 3 potential impact players in the past four drafts? I imagine it to be a very short list.

[old rem]

It's also interesting to note the big men the Warriors have drafted sans Nellie:

Joe Smith - horrible for a number one overall
Todd Fuller (11)
Adonal Foyle (8)
Troy Murphy (14) - this was a good draft for the Warriors
Biedrins (11) - Yes! Best Warriors big man pick since Webber
Ike Diogu (9)
Patrick O'Bryant (9)

I would say two good years out of seven, and not an All Star among them.

Uh huh.

The W's lucked out on Biedrins who of all those probably had the least credentials. This says we CAN'T replace Biedrins. It also says we have no clue how to find or develop big men and until that riddle is solved...we are all we can be.

Those 6 players -aside from Biedrins...and add Rozier....EACH could easily have been more than what we made them. For a LONG time the W's fixated on the difference between winning 30% and 40%---short term.

Any bozo could see that Felton Spencer had ZERO basketball talent. The Warriors somehow hired sub-bozos who thought Spencer was hot stuff. What's the odds? Fuller + Rozier were better the day they arrived than the day they left.

Fast forward and I'd say the same for Diogu and O"Bryant. This franchise would have turned Olajuwon into a stiff. Do the math and it's inevitable we stumble upon some answer someday. You youngun's may live to see the day.

[St.Nick]

Rem, you would have to say that Indiana has been equally bad regarding the development of Diogu. He has been there for 1.5 seasons and has done nothing but tease them with the odd impressive game. Sounds a lot like what he did here. Perhaps the team isnt the problem as much as the player.

And mark my words regarding POB...the guy is and will continue to be an obsolete NBA player. It has nothing to do with his measurables, just his lack of desire and heart. Our FO just made the horrible mistake of not realizing this before they drafted him. Afterwards, it was on POB for not turning into a real player.

[Twinkie defense]

I don't know, maybe The Dream would have been okay here

Maybe what the Warriors ought to do is just draft smalls every year.

Smalls of course seem too excel in Nellie's fast-paced system, and great smalls can be had up and down the draft, regardless of position (exhibit A: Monta). So we should draft smalls, run them and have them put up great numbers, then, just as they're on the verge of being all-stars, flip them for top picks in the draft where truly good big men can be had.