Lacob & Co. in Attack Mode

[turk3d]

rThe original discussion was about Curry, not Ellis, who's still on the team and who's slated to be our starting PG (and as stated, he got us Bogut who if he returns to good health is a franchise Center).

I don't care what RAPM says, Curry was one of the worst starting defenders at PG in the league regardless of what stats say. I can't believe you're trying to make argument that he wasn't his first two years as we went through this on the forum and most people agreed. We went through this for two years and I thought it was settled. It's his offensive prowess which helps him balance his defensive deficiencies out which may make his numbers appear better.

Last year may have been diffierent to some degree because of all the missed games and the fact that his last time back he was coming off the bench so that he probably wasn't getting as many minutes against the starters. He only played in 26 games last season (23 as a starter). When I was referring to the Rose game, I was talking about 2 years ago, and that was the game the Monta defended him and he shot 4-17 with 9 turnovers.

I guess last year Curry played him well (I didn't see that game). There's a reason that both Nellie and Smart benched him a lot for getting abused by the opposing PG his first two years and it wasn't his offense. It's Curry superior offense that most likely is what's balancing out his porous defense. Even Jimmer broke his ankles last season.

I agree that he showed some improvement last year on D (compared to his first 2) but I wonder if that's why he got hurt so often and if playing better D will make it even more difficult to stay healthy. That's a concern. His biggest problem (as I stated) imo opinion is his lack of speed which is really necessary to play PG in this day and age and if we were to trade him for the #2 someone like Kemba might be a decent replacement over the long haul as he at least has the speed necessary for the position although he'd never be the shooter that Curry is.

It's funny how whenever someone gives any criticism to Curry, how some of you always try and compare him to Monta. Monta's not here any more. Try and come up with something else maybe. Sorry I got the Curry/Monta thing going but it's no longer Curry/Monta it's just Curry we should be concerned with. We need a stat thread on this forum.
`

[Jester_]

I don't care what RAPM says, Curry was one of the worst starting defenders at PG in the league regardless of what stats say. I can't believe you're trying to make argument that he wasn't his first two years as we went through this on the forum and most people agreed. We went through this for two years and I thought it was settled. It's his offensive prowess which helps him balance his defensive deficiencies out which may make his numbers appear better.

Believing something despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think there's a word for that.

In that case, I choose to believe Kevin Durant is not a good scorer. I will take that belief to the grave.

[billinder33]

I don't care what RAPM says, Curry was one of the worst starting defenders at PG in the league regardless of what stats say. I can't believe you're trying to make argument that he wasn't his first two years as we went through this on the forum and most people agreed. We went through this for two years and I thought it was settled. It's his offensive prowess which helps him balance his defensive deficiencies out which may make his numbers appear better.

Believing something despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think there's a word for that.

In that case, I choose to believe Kevin Durant is not a good scorer. I will take that belief to the grave.

[Left*My*Heart]

I would love to see the Warriors trade Curry for the second pick. The idea of including Walker in the trade as well, makes sense and would allow us to take the BPA at 7. Otherwise, we might be forced to take Lillard or Marshall with the 7th when there are potentially better players available.

[xRapHeadx]

I thoroughly enjoyed these last few pages

[GSForever]

Monta for a 6'3 guard has the quickness and athletic ability to hang with the DRose and Paul's of the league. And for him to try to be the leading scorer and defender on a weak defensive team is too much to ask for. Curry couldn't guard a chair or his aging grandma. Its not rocket science. All these STATS are a bunch of BS

[FNQ]

Actually the stats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fans' eyes

All fans think their PG cant defend. Boston fans complain about Rondo at times... its because of the rules. Its practically impossible to be a quality PG defender if you cant touch the other guy at all.

At least we dont go over this year after year after year to the same people.

[Left*My*Heart]

So just because I complain about Curry's lack of defense means he is a good defender?

[Jester_]

His point is that fans will always complain about their point guards defense just because it's hard for them to -see- good defense happening by virtue of the way the rules are structured. That's why Derrick Rose is considered a very good defender for a point guard when in reality he's fairly average -- people see a strong, athletic and fast player and automatically assume he's a fantastic defender.

Defense is a much harder thing to gauge from just watching a player than offense. Most of the leagues officials are complete idiots about it... that's why Tyson Chandler won DPOY yet didn't make first team all-defense. That's also why Kobe made first team. Most people don't know sh*t about defense.

[Left*My*Heart]

Yeah, I can't watch a game with my own two eyes and tell what is going on. Sure am glad I can pull up some stats to tell me Curry didn't get beat off the dribble afterwards.

Anyone who states that Curry is a good defender, doesn't know sh*t about basketball, let alone defense.

[Jester_]

Luckily, the facts don't care what you believe.

[FNQ]

So just because I complain about Curry's lack of defense means he is a good defender?

No, you complaining about Curry's lack of defense either means you have a dated idea of what good defense is, or simply never knew. Because good defense does translate into these #s, which are facts.

To be fair though, its pretty damned tough to identify good defenders on the perimeter, other than the obvious ones. Its become an art form, a balancing act of taking good risks and knowing the tendencies of the guy you are guarding. 15 years ago, all you needed was a strong forearm, desire, and a mean streak.

[Little Digger]

FNQ nailing my take on fans not understanding that nobody, not even Rondo, can stop today's quick gaurds from getting into the lane..Then FNQ takes it to a new level..I love it. That's why he's a 1st ballot realgm HOFame poster in my book.

[and1GS]

So just because I complain about Curry's lack of defense means he is a good defender?

No, you complaining about Curry's lack of defense either means you have a dated idea of what good defense is, or simply never knew. Because good defense does translate into these #s, which are facts.

To be fair though, its pretty damned tough to identify good defenders on the perimeter, other than the obvious ones. Its become an art form, a balancing act of taking good risks and knowing the tendencies of the guy you are guarding. 15 years ago, all you needed was a strong forearm, desire, and a mean streak.

Word. Rules and increasing quickness/strength of perimeter players has really changed what good defense actually is. For example, I think Battier and Iguodala are the two best perimeter defenders in the NBA and both get constantly burnt by drives to the lane not because they suck, but because they choose to run their man into help defense because they can only take away so many options.

IDK, especially at PG it's difficult to gauge as they have the ball for most of the game.

[Jester_]

Curry is very weak going around screens, and that's where the majority of his "lapses" come from. Having a big that can defend the pick and roll well (i.e Henson or even Bogut from what I've seen) automatically resolves that problem. Add to the fact that Curry is an incredibly pesky help defender and even your "eyes" should be able to tell you he's a decent defensive presence.

[GSForever]

Too bad they don't make a stat when someone like Curry is in the game. Curry's teammates up their level of defense and defensive intensity to compensate for having a weaker and slower player on the floor.

[Jester_]

Too bad they don't make a stat when someone like Curry is in the game. Curry's teammates up their level of defense and defensive intensity to compensate for having a weaker and slower player on the floor.

So that's your last ditch argument to back up your point?

[Quazza]

lmao

*Steph checks into game*

"alright boys, here comes #30! Lets lift on D!!" Andrew Bogut

[TB]

Too bad they don't make a stat when someone like Curry is in the game. Curry's teammates up their level of defense and defensive intensity to compensate for having a weaker and slower player on the floor.

They make plenty of stats that show how the team does when Curry is in. If the reason his "team D" stats are solid has to do with his teammates respecting him so much that they want to bail him out... awesome. Whatever gets the job done works for me.

[turk3d]

I think GSForever nailed it. FNQs points are well taken too, as now it seems some of us are coming down to reality ("ie no one can guard PGs because of today's rules, therefore that's why Curry can't but it doesn't mean that Curry's D is bad"). At least FNQ doesn't say it so "matter of factly".

You see the problem with using stats to base your entire conclusion is that you're leaving out a very important part of it which is observation. Even in science, empirical observation is a big part of making deterministic outcomes. The numbers only give you half of it.

And observation comes through experience, watching games, playing and direct involvement, not video games or doing statistical number crunching because basketball is a game, a game to be played under real life circumstances, not virtual ones and you can do all the number crunching you want, but you'll never get away from it.

It's the difference between those who have that experience and those who just looking at theory which is why the ones with the experience will be the ones who are managing the teams and the ones doing the number crunching will be just working for them. The problem some of you stats guy have are what you call "outliers", which to you are just random phenomena that don't impact your statistical calculations.

The problem is twofold: 1) what that means is that your numbers are really just generalizations as they don't guarantee to hold true for every case and 2) you can't predict which cases will be the ones that they don't hold true for.

Not to beat Monta over the head with a dead horse, but Monta is the "outlier" for all your generalized numbers especially of the advanced variety. Even though all the shots (many bad) resulted in the predicted results, it's the factors that go into this occurring which must be taken into account (context). I think GSForever put it correctly when he pointed out that Monta was asked to do way more than he should have.

It's interesting how often Monta has been compared to Lebron even though everyone in his right mind knows he's not in any way shape or form. You know why? Because he was asked to be Lebron for this franchise and although of course he came up short, he did everything he could to. It's funny, but I wouldn't even ask Curry to do as much as Monta was asked to do.

I think some of you fanboys might though, which imo would be to his detriment. Let these guys be whoever they are, as long as they're giving their best effort. Maybe if you didn't he wouldn't keep twisting his ankle up trying to meet such high expectations. There's a number of guys on this forum who are excellent stats guys who are also very experienced in the game and use empirical analysis and observation as well and not just stats alone who I'm sure will attest to.