WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

[paco59]

Too much microanalysis. Wiseman's outside shots are very inconsistent so he can be counted as a non shooter. He lacks defense and rebounding. Green can help cover the defense side. So mainly wiseman's main issue is on offense. He cant score consistently.
Basically he is Damian Jones part 2 . A lob threat. Nothing more, nothing less.

Very hard to find players who can do it all.
Then build team like the pistons.
Curry and Thompson are Isiah and Dumar
Green is Dennis rodman
Wiseman is spider Salley
Now go grab a postup guy like cousins or Monroe similar to Aguire and Edwards

[EvanZ]

I am a poor judge of "motor-desire," but am able to articulate what I am seeing, and what I am seeing is a poor reflection of our scouting department, our front office, our coaching staff, and James Wiseman, too.

Watch a player like Isaiah Stewart and compare him to Wiseman. I'm not a Stewart fan but that's what a motor looks like in comparison.

[ILOVEIT]

:banghead: Too much microanalysis. Wiseman's outside shots are very inconsistent so he can be counted as a non shooter. He lacks defense and rebounding. Green can help cover the defense side. So mainly wiseman's main issue is on offense. He cant score consistently.
Basically he is Damian Jones part 2 . A lob threat. Nothing more, nothing less.

Very hard to find players who can do it all.
Then build team like the pistons.
Curry and Thompson are Isiah and Dumar
Green is Dennis rodman
Wiseman is spider Salley
Now go grab a postup guy like cousins or Monroe similar to Aguire and Edwards

Eh...the eye test tells you that Wiseman's jumper has very good form. His release is pure. Eye test shows he has the ability to handle the ball and is fairly fast for his size. His passing skills have promise.
IMO it's not if Wiseman will be very good...it's waiting three years for it.

I can look at Damion Jones and know immediately he doesn't have a face up game for the NBA. Same with Salley....

No way I'm putting Wiseman in the same category guys that have no touch and not skills...Wiseman has talent and skill...just going to take time...

[EvanZ]

Very hard to find players who can do it all.
Then build team like the pistons.
Curry and Thompson are Isiah and Dumar
Green is Dennis rodman
Wiseman is spider Salley
Now go grab a postup guy like cousins or Monroe similar to Aguire and Edwards

This is the worst team building comp I've heard in a long time. Is this 1990?

[paco59]

Very hard to find players who can do it all.
Then build team like the pistons.
Curry and Thompson are Isiah and Dumar
Green is Dennis rodman
Wiseman is spider Salley
Now go grab a postup guy like cousins or Monroe similar to Aguire and Edwards

This is the worst team building comp I've heard in a long time. Is this 1990?

Theory of life.
Everything runs in a circle.

[SAKURABA216]

What happened last night? From the box score, it looks like Wiseman was eaten alive by freaking Clint Capella.

[Sleepy51]

What happened last night? From the box score, it looks like Wiseman was eaten alive by freaking Clint Capella.

No, not entirely. During Wiseman's first shift against him we had the lead and JW played well (for a 19 year old.)

Kerr didn't play Wise again in the first half and Capella beasted off in Looney and Draymond's faces for the 2nd quarter shift. In the 2nd half, yeah I'd agree JW got it put too him pretty good, didn't get a bucket, outrebounded by 5 vs. Capella and then again, didn't see the court in the 4th.

Use this site instead of looking at boxscores when you want to get a more meaningful sense of what actually happened.
http://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20210404&game=GSWATL

Capella is the bestg rebounder in the league, but no he shouldn't be going off for 21 points. But that wasn't all on Wise. Significantly, it was on the lineups with Draymond at C. That's not Draymond's fault either. We do so much switching and rotating that the biggest player on the floor is often rebounding over our smaller wings and guards with JW, Loon or Draymond guarding a perimeter player when the shot goes up.

[DonaldSanders]

He should have been available for D league. He should have played limited minutes early on. He should be just earning regular rotation minutes now. And NONE of that is a negative reflection on JW as a prospect. When they decided to draft a teenage big expectations should have been appropriately set that he was a multi-year project, and NOT a part of the plan to max out Steph’s window. They could have articulated that the 2021 draft was for helping Steph and they made a conscious decision to use the 2020 pick for the future given the available talent.

There would have been nothing wrong with saying that the plan was a multi-year plan and that’s just the way it is, but they would empty the chamber in 2021-2022 to get the Core back into contention.

Mishandling the expectations is leading to mishandling the development and could be corrosive to the culture and the future. They really pounded the donkey on this. They need a cohesive plan to unwind the damage this summer

If the big problem is that your #2 selection needs time in the D league instead of NBA minutes I really have trouble picturing them as ever being an impact player.

This seems like excuses for Wiseman. The Warriors could have done a better job with him, sure, but so far he hasn't been that good and we knew he was a gamble. Seems more that the gamble didn't pay off, there were only a small number of college games to watch. Now that we have seen where he is at we'd never have taken him, nobody would have at #2. This is just being honest with ourselves.

It's not just that Wiseman was known as a project, it's that he was *also* a gamble. I don't think he is a full bust but he's not going to be a big impact player. He'll improve as time goes on and play smarter, but it's highly unlikely he will ever grow into an all-star.

[Sleepy51]

Even Kevin Garnett, when he had come into the league straight-out of high school and as a rookie, had a streak of "nastiness" early in his career. Perhaps, also, because Garnett had Kevin McHale as a mentor and an organization which viewed his, Garnett's, development as crucial for the organization, Garnett was able to eventually excel.

That is unequivocally false about Garnett. He was not nasty. He had highlight dunks, but he was widely regarded as something of a wallflower and quiet player until former teammate Anthony Peeler busted him in the face in the 04 Western Finals on national TV. It was from that day forward that Garnett started to cultivate his fake tough guy image (mostly against the stiffest opponent bigs he could pick on.)

I loved Garnett's game before and after, but saying he came into the league "nasty" is totally revisionist. He was a tall, shy, light, quiet and reserved player for almost a decade until he got his chin checked.

He also averaged 6 rebounds per game as a rookie. File that away for later.

[clyde21]

Just read on reddit that with wiseman, dubbs have easily the worst netrtg in the NBA. Without wiseman, the dubbs have a top 10 net rtg.

I dont think anyone expected this sort of impact. No one.

It was perfectly reasonable to expect he’d struggle on defense as a rookie. He has, but he’s also shown some improvement as the year has progressed even if he is easy bait for ball fakes and gets himself out of the play when he chases blocks.

But what’s most disturbing is that his offensive impact is horrific. Some of that is absolutely on Kerr. There’s no reason Wiseman should be doing anything other than setting screens, diving to the rim, and shooting 3’s. He doesn’t have a good of sense of where to be on the court and it’s clear that Kerr’s motion system gives Wiseman too many decisions to make.

But right now Wiseman’s OBPM is at -4.4. In the final year of Andris Biedrins’ Warriors stint, he shot 44% FG, 30% ish FT, and 44% TS. His OBPM was -4.8. Wiseman is only marginally less bad than Biedrins on offense despite shooting 55% TS. It’s disturbing.

BREAKING: High usage, single-level, positionally-locked Center doesn't thrive in a player/ball motion offense

Myers why do I have to explain this to u?

[Sleepy51]

If the big problem is that your #2 selection needs time in the D league instead of NBA minutes I really have trouble picturing them as ever being an impact player.

Jermaine ONeal would have absolutely played in the D League if it existed when he was drafted. Instead he got 10 mpg for 4 points
Andrew Bynum averaged 1 point in 8 minutes

These guys are wings so it's different, but:
Kobe effing Bryant started all of 6 games as a rookie and averaged 7 points in 15 minutes.
McGrady 7 points in 18 minutes
Giannis averaged 7 points in 12 minutes

19 is too young for a big person's body to play effective basketball. They haven't had the USE of a 7 foot body for long enough to master it. It takes 10,000 hours (5 years of dedicated work) to master a physical task. How would that even be possible for someone this young who has never had to use that body against like sized people?

Being too young to contribute as a #2 pick doesn't mean it's a bad pick (it could be. Darko was clearly a bad pick and lots of bigs don't develop into anything worthwhile) but, realistically, the development does not happen in NBA game minutes for these guys. It happens in the practice facility and the weight room and in training camp.

We are seeing the sausage being made here, and it's ugly. There's a reason most teams historically have not done this in big regular season minutes.

[clyde21]

I might be able to get past how awful Wiseman is right now if I saw him play with any heart, toughness or passion. But most games he just mopes around and does nothing.

I don't care he is 19/20. That's concerning for someone who has proven nothing. Like where is your heart man?

Instead he just plays like a little pussy every night.

I seriously would trade this dude for any rotation player I can find.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using RealGM mobile app

earlier in the year (too lazy to find the highlight) when he was barely touched and fell to the ground and legit stayed on the ground face down for 20 seconds was the biggest red flag, that was such a mopey, bitch move. was turned off immediately.

[clyde21]

I might be able to get past how awful Wiseman is right now if I saw him play with any heart, toughness or passion. But most games he just mopes around and does nothing.

I don't care he is 19/20. That's concerning for someone who has proven nothing. Like where is your heart man?

Instead he just plays like a little pussy every night.

I seriously would trade this dude for any rotation player I can find.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using RealGM mobile app

I was probably the first person on this board to say that Wiseman appeared to lack any motor. People got on me about it and I was like "are they actually seeing what I'm seeing?" Since then, it's only become more evident. I have this terrible feeling that this guy is perfectly content with his rookie contract and crappy Anta shoe deal (Has anyone else taken a moment to consider why Nike, Adidas and Puma all passed on Wiseman?). He plays like he's won the lottery and could care less about anything else.

I don't see the lack of motor; however, I do see and inability to go after the ball in rebounding situations, and that is problematic.

Mentally, I also see more of a willingness to lead and try to finish the break when he, Wiseman, instead, should be making the outlet pass, running the floor, and getting into position to either finish the break or tip in a missed shot.

I am a poor judge of "motor-desire," but am able to articulate what I am seeing, and what I am seeing is a poor reflection of our scouting department, our front office, our coaching staff, and James Wiseman, too.

it's not a lack of motor, it's the softness. he's just soft. i've been saying it the entire time, he's got some major soft tendencies to his game, which is the worst thing for a big, especially a big that you'd expect to dominate the middle with his physical profile. his internal clock also is a little slow, processing speed isn't there to actually see and make plays as they happen. he's soft and he's slow to react, so it looks like a motor issue.

i think high end outcome for him at this point is Drummond type/level player...like, that's the high high end outcome if everything aligns well for him...and even then it will still be a bad pick.

[and1GS]

If the big problem is that your #2 selection needs time in the D league instead of NBA minutes I really have trouble picturing them as ever being an impact player.

Jermaine ONeal would have absolutely played in the D League if it existed when he was drafted. Instead he got 10 mpg for 4 points
Andrew Bynum averaged 1 point in 8 minutes

These guys are wings so it's different, but:
Kobe effing Bryant started all of 6 games as a rookie and averaged 7 points in 15 minutes.
McGrady 7 points in 18 minutes
Giannis averaged 7 points in 12 minutes

19 is too young for a big person's body to play effective basketball. They haven't had the USE of a 7 foot body for long enough to master it. It takes 10,000 hours (5 years of dedicated work) to master a physical task. How would that even be possible for someone this young who has never had to use that body against like sized people?

Being too young to contribute as a #2 pick doesn't mean it's a bad pick (it could be. Darko was clearly a bad pick and lots of bigs don't develop into anything worthwhile) but, realistically, the development does not happen in NBA game minutes for these guys. It happens in the practice facility and the weight room and in training camp.

We are seeing the sausage being made here, and it's ugly. There's a reason most teams historically have not done this in big regular season minutes.

Asking as you seem to have a good grip on this.

What, if anything, do you think would be different if we gave Wiseman the Minnesota treatment? Force feed minutes, shots and usage on a dreadful team at the basement of the league with no Curry-esque player healthy to take up playcalls.

The conventional wisdom is this would help development, but I don't really buy that. Especially for a big.

[SAKURABA216]

What happened last night? From the box score, it looks like Wiseman was eaten alive by freaking Clint Capella.

No, not entirely. During Wiseman's first shift against him we had the lead and JW played well (for a 19 year old.)

Kerr didn't play Wise again in the first half and Capella beasted off in Looney and Draymond's faces for the 2nd quarter shift. In the 2nd half, yeah I'd agree JW got it put too him pretty good, didn't get a bucket, outrebounded by 5 vs. Capella and then again, didn't see the court in the 4th.

Use this site instead of looking at boxscores when you want to get a more meaningful sense of what actually happened.
http://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20210404&game=GSWATL

Capella is the bestg rebounder in the league, but no he shouldn't be going off for 21 points. But that wasn't all on Wise. Significantly, it was on the lineups with Draymond at C. That's not Draymond's fault either. We do so much switching and rotating that the biggest player on the floor is often rebounding over our smaller wings and guards with JW, Loon or Draymond guarding a perimeter player when the shot goes up.

Thank you so much! Yeah I have 2 young kids so we have Paw Patrol and Blues Clues on the TV most of the time. I only get to watch highlights on Youtube and only have the heart to watch when we win so this website will be huge for me.

[Sleepy51]

If the big problem is that your #2 selection needs time in the D league instead of NBA minutes I really have trouble picturing them as ever being an impact player.

Jermaine ONeal would have absolutely played in the D League if it existed when he was drafted. Instead he got 10 mpg for 4 points
Andrew Bynum averaged 1 point in 8 minutes

These guys are wings so it's different, but:
Kobe effing Bryant started all of 6 games as a rookie and averaged 7 points in 15 minutes.
McGrady 7 points in 18 minutes
Giannis averaged 7 points in 12 minutes

19 is too young for a big person's body to play effective basketball. They haven't had the USE of a 7 foot body for long enough to master it. It takes 10,000 hours (5 years of dedicated work) to master a physical task. How would that even be possible for someone this young who has never had to use that body against like sized people?

Being too young to contribute as a #2 pick doesn't mean it's a bad pick (it could be. Darko was clearly a bad pick and lots of bigs don't develop into anything worthwhile) but, realistically, the development does not happen in NBA game minutes for these guys. It happens in the practice facility and the weight room and in training camp.

We are seeing the sausage being made here, and it's ugly. There's a reason most teams historically have not done this in big regular season minutes.

Asking as you seem to have a good grip on this.

What, if anything, do you think would be different if we gave Wiseman the Minnesota treatment? Force feed minutes, shots and usage on a dreadful team at the basement of the league with no Curry-esque player healthy to take up playcalls.

The conventional wisdom is this would help development, but I don't really buy that. Especially for a big.

I think developing a 19 year old 7 footer on the big stage for the purpose of entertaining the fanbase is a bad organizational choice. that said, the D league will still have the problem of not facing enough NBA C bodies often enough to learn what will and wont work against other real NBA C's. But given his limited college experience I probably would have gone that route. two months of D league, then 10 mpg until the end of this season.

[SAKURABA216]

If the big problem is that your #2 selection needs time in the D league instead of NBA minutes I really have trouble picturing them as ever being an impact player.

Jermaine ONeal would have absolutely played in the D League if it existed when he was drafted. Instead he got 10 mpg for 4 points
Andrew Bynum averaged 1 point in 8 minutes

These guys are wings so it's different, but:
Kobe effing Bryant started all of 6 games as a rookie and averaged 7 points in 15 minutes.
McGrady 7 points in 18 minutes
Giannis averaged 7 points in 12 minutes

19 is too young for a big person's body to play effective basketball. They haven't had the USE of a 7 foot body for long enough to master it. It takes 10,000 hours (5 years of dedicated work) to master a physical task. How would that even be possible for someone this young who has never had to use that body against like sized people?

Being too young to contribute as a #2 pick doesn't mean it's a bad pick (it could be. Darko was clearly a bad pick and lots of bigs don't develop into anything worthwhile) but, realistically, the development does not happen in NBA game minutes for these guys. It happens in the practice facility and the weight room and in training camp.

We are seeing the sausage being made here, and it's ugly. There's a reason most teams historically have not done this in big regular season minutes.

Asking as you seem to have a good grip on this.

What, if anything, do you think would be different if we gave Wiseman the Minnesota treatment? Force feed minutes, shots and usage on a dreadful team at the basement of the league with no Curry-esque player healthy to take up playcalls.

The conventional wisdom is this would help development, but I don't really buy that. Especially for a big.

I think this would be a huge mistake for a guy like Wiseman. I think it would play out similarly to playing a top 10 quarterback being drafted and expected to carry a team the following year. NFL teams will try to have the rookie QB start behind a veteran for a few games because they do not want the rookie having his confidence shattered so early in his career.

Wiseman is being brought along slowly because of his inexperience and he needs to get used to the speed of the game and to be able to make in-game decisions quicker, to see his openings on offense and to rotate and be in the right position on defense. I think Dray is the perfect teacher for him here. Just look at Marvin Bagley on the Kings. He was picked with the #2 pick a few years ago and was expected to jump right in and make things happen. When you are just starting out, having a great mentor will make all the difference. Sure, there are some guys like KAT, Embiid, and Bam that didn't seem to need that, but not everyone is built to be a franchise player. Most bigs are more like the Bagleys and Aytons of the NBA that need a bit more time to develop.

[and1GS]

Thanks both. I tend to have the same reaction and also view it like QBs in the NFL. Even the best could really benefit from sitting for a year. It's a physically (and mentally) demanding position in today's NBA. You also need to start accepting that even though you were hyper-quick in college, you can't do the PG stuff any more at that height. Blake basically ran point at Oklahoma (dating myself, I know) and did a lot of PG things in the NBA, but far more often played off the ball or without a live dribble. I know we want to throw the kid in the bin, but this stuff does take time.

[FNQ]

I only caught 1st Q of ATL game.. Wiseman looked good then. Guess he didnt after that?

[Warriors Analyst]

I only caught 1st Q of ATL game.. Wiseman looked good then. Guess he didnt after that?

2nd half was a rough. There was a brutal sequence where he tried and failed to block a shot that he would have only been able to goaltend and failed to contest the second shot. Dray looked pretty disgusted at the end of that sequence. Wiseman did grab a really nice offensive rebound off on offensive board and then... bungled the bunny.