James Wiseman 2021/2022

[Coxy]

How about this hypothetical question:

If it meant retaining Klay, Wiggins, Poole, Looney, and GP2 for the next 2 years after this one.. would you decline Wiseman's 4th year?

I'd decline retaining Poole before Wiseman.

We wouldn't have advanced this far in the playoffs without Poole.

I'm fine with putting up with Jordan's worst in the league defence and headless chicken offensive game for $2.1m this season, or $3.9m next season, but at $25m per season, no thanks, I'd be on homicide watch daily with him. Let someone else deal with that. It has the makings of a classic bottom feeder team paying him big only to scratch their heads as to why they have finished last in the standings again. His erratic offense makes me want to claw my eyes out and being a defence 1st lover, you can only imagine the migraines he gives me.

And if you follow up this to asking me "What price would you want to retain him at then?", then my answer is probably $5m per season. At that rate, the expectation level is for a volume microwave scorer that we can bench at any time we choose, and we aren't making a huge financial commitment to him which forces Kerr to play him a lot.

[DonaldSanders]

Unfortunately I think Wiseman has a picture in his mind of him being an all-star "go to" center on the offensive end, when we actually need him to be a better version of Looney.

Wiseman has the physical tools to be the kind of big we need, but I'm not sure he is willing, interested, or aware that he should be playing differently. Maybe I'm overreacting to his G-League film, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

I agree, it's kind of hilarious that he can watch what Curry, Draymond, & Klay are doing and think he's gonna be the man instead of them. The guy is delusional.

Yet another example of people sitting in front of a television or occasionally going to games suggesting they know EXACTLY what's going on in a player's mind -- and then using it to badmouth him. (It's particularly ridiculous with a guy who hasn't played in the league for over a year.) I may be alone in getting irritated by nonsense like this, but I know silly takes when I see them.

You want to say he's not worth keeping? Fine. That his type won't work for the current Warriors? Fine, too. You want to say he has to do better than he has in the past? Also absolutely reasonable. But sitting around griping about what's in his head without having the slightest knowledge of whether it's actually true? Pretty weak.

I wrote "I think" and "my guess", pretty different from what you're portraying. I don't see a problem speculating about the mental aspect of the game, Wiseman has the physical tools. Transitioning to a different type of play style than you're used to isn't trivial and is part of why I'd say Wiseman needs time and should look better as he spends more time on the team. The Warriors don't need a "go to" center around the post, I don't understand how you can think I'm bad mouthing him. Dude is 20 and learning.

[Samurai]

Do you guys think that Wiseman is actually taking in this run and watching Looney and realizing what winning defense and passing look like, or is he going to come in next year and think that he's the next David Robinson with a 3 point stroke like he did his rookie year?

Unfortunately I think Wiseman has a picture in his mind of him being an all-star "go to" center on the offensive end, when we actually need him to be a better version of Looney.

Wiseman has the physical tools to be the kind of big we need, but I'm not sure he is willing, interested, or aware that he should be playing differently. Maybe I'm overreacting to his G-League film, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

Is there some specific reporting that Wiseman is not studying right now or has actually stated that he wants/plans to be the "go to" center? From what I've read, the feedback from players and coaches is that he has been a very good student, studying endless hours of film, watching what the players do, and listening to what the coaches (particularly Milojevic) are pointing out to him. I'm curious when the change in his attitude took place, otherwise this just could be people making wild speculation based on 'facts' (assumptions) not in evidence.

Obviously we aren't looking at his G-league games where he was playing with a bunch of, well, G-league talent and it was his opportunity to see what he can do. Moody was hoisting up 21.8 shots/game in the G-league but he doesn't fire up shots at a Klay-like pace in the NBA because that's not what we need him to do nor what the coaches want him to do. I'd be shocked if the coaching staff is expecting Wiseman to be our #1 or #2 option, especially with Kerr publicly stating how his plan is to "simplify" Wiseman's role, particularly on offense.

[azwfan]

He hasnt played in over a year. Nobody has a clue what his mindset is right now or what it’ll be when he returns. Then you speculate on it, attribute those speculations onto him, and criticize him for it. Where do you get this garbage?

[DonaldSanders]

Do you guys think that Wiseman is actually taking in this run and watching Looney and realizing what winning defense and passing look like, or is he going to come in next year and think that he's the next David Robinson with a 3 point stroke like he did his rookie year?

Unfortunately I think Wiseman has a picture in his mind of him being an all-star "go to" center on the offensive end, when we actually need him to be a better version of Looney.

Wiseman has the physical tools to be the kind of big we need, but I'm not sure he is willing, interested, or aware that he should be playing differently. Maybe I'm overreacting to his G-League film, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

Is there some specific reporting that Wiseman is not studying right now or has actually stated that he wants/plans to be the "go to" center? From what I've read, the feedback from players and coaches is that he has been a very good student, studying endless hours of film, watching what the players do, and listening to what the coaches (particularly Milojevic) are pointing out to him. I'm curious when the change in his attitude took place, otherwise this just could be people making wild speculation based on 'facts' (assumptions) not in evidence.

Oh I am absolutely speculating. I had a more complete thought about this in the post, the above you quoted was too inaccurate of an answer. What I really meant was the attachments you have in your mind to playing a certain way, these are *unconscious* attachments mostly. I am not saying Wiseman is being difficult or unwilling to learn the Warrior Way, I didn't say that at all. I'm just saying most of his life he spent as "the guy" and that transitioning to being a complementary player is hard on many levels.

Obviously we aren't looking at his G-league games where he was playing with a bunch of, well, G-league talent and it was his opportunity to see what he can do. Moody was hoisting up 21.8 shots/game in the G-league but he doesn't fire up shots at a Klay-like pace in the NBA because that's not what we need him to do nor what the coaches want him to do. I'd be shocked if the coaching staff is expecting Wiseman to be our #1 or #2 option, especially with Kerr publicly stating how his plan is to "simplify" Wiseman's role, particularly on offense.

Oh the Warriors definitely aren't. Like I said I'd love to be pleasantly wrong about Wiseman and that he's more ready to take on more of a Looney type role. I also said this is the place for him to "get it" based on vet influence. I'm not low on Wiseman, I think he will end up having good value for us, maybe not #2 pick value but still will be a valuable player.

I would have thought Wiseman would be making more of a "sales pitch" in his G-League time but I could be just over thinking it. Honestly I think he'll improve the question is just what speed and when will it all start clicking? Definitely didn't mean to come off as damning him in some fashion, his book is unwritten.

[Samurai]

I would have thought Wiseman would be making more of a "sales pitch" in his G-League time but I could be just over thinking it. Honestly I think he'll improve the question is just what speed and when will it all start clicking? Definitely didn't mean to come off as damning him in some fashion, his book is unwritten.

Again, what "sales pitch" was he supposed to be making? Take his game against Stockton: after his uneven start (could chalk that up to nerves since he hadn't played in so long), he went on a stretch making 7 of 8 with his shots coming in the paint - a hook shot, layups, dunks and a midrange jumpshot. That seems to be what so many people were clamoring for him to just take those high-percentage shots and not pretend he's a taller Curry. How is that failing to make a sales pitch? Sounds like what we would want him to focus on offensively. Had 18 points and 6 rebounds in 21 minutes (remember he lost 2 boards when his own teammates inexplicably fought with each other for rebounds). He defended the paint and forced Stockton to alter several shots, resulting in misses. Again, what would you want him to focus on to make a better 'sales pitch' than alter the other team's offense and grab rebounds? Could it be that your expectations for his 'sales pitch' is different than the coaching staff? And if so, as long as he checked the boxes of what the coaches expected of him, as Kerr stated he did, then how did he make a bad 'sales pitch'?

[DonaldSanders]

I would have thought Wiseman would be making more of a "sales pitch" in his G-League time but I could be just over thinking it. Honestly I think he'll improve the question is just what speed and when will it all start clicking? Definitely didn't mean to come off as damning him in some fashion, his book is unwritten.

Again, what "sales pitch" was he supposed to be making? Take his game against Stockton: after his uneven start (could chalk that up to nerves since he hadn't played in so long), he went on a stretch making 7 of 8 with his shots coming in the paint - a hook shot, layups, dunks and a midrange jumpshot. That seems to be what so many people were clamoring for him to just take those high-percentage shots and not pretend he's a taller Curry. How is that failing to make a sales pitch? Sounds like what we would want him to focus on offensively. Had 18 points and 6 rebounds in 21 minutes (remember he lost 2 boards when his own teammates inexplicably fought with each other for rebounds). He defended the paint and forced Stockton to alter several shots, resulting in misses. Again, what would you want him to focus on to make a better 'sales pitch' than alter the other team's offense and grab rebounds? Could it be that your expectations for his 'sales pitch' is different than the coaching staff? And if so, as long as he checked the boxes of what the coaches expected of him, as Kerr stated he did, then how did he make a bad 'sales pitch'?

Some of the stuff he did was not in the flow of the offense, it looked forced. But it was just a few G-League games, I'm admitting that it is essentially wild speculation. Of my takes this one is one I care about very little... if you scroll through the thread I've generally been a Wiseman supporter and still am.

[whatisacenter]

I’m one of the few who is still excited about Wiseman. Can’t wait to see him with the team next season!

[azwfan]

I’m one of the few who is still excited about Wiseman. Can’t wait to see him with the team next season!

Im going to be disappointed if he doesnt play in summer league. Hopefully he’s healthy now.

[The-Power]

And if you follow up this to asking me "What price would you want to retain him at then?", then my answer is probably $5m per season. At that rate, the expectation level is for a volume microwave scorer that we can bench at any time we choose, and we aren't making a huge financial commitment to him which forces Kerr to play him a lot.

From mid-April (just a little over one (!) month ago):

We'd be lucky to trade Wiggins for anything decent this off season, but I think we'll take anything we can get. We have to keep Poole at all costs.

We have to keep Poole long term at any cost.

Talk about being erratic lol, not sure I've ever seen such a quick 180 on a player by one poster. It's good that decisions are made by level-headed evaluators that don't jump between extremes from one week to the next.

What makes it even funnier is that Poole is the same player he has been one month ago, except that he's now shown it in the playoffs and actually increased his scoring efficiency. The playoffs have not shown a single deficiency that we weren't already aware of.

[FNQ]

And if you follow up this to asking me "What price would you want to retain him at then?", then my answer is probably $5m per season. At that rate, the expectation level is for a volume microwave scorer that we can bench at any time we choose, and we aren't making a huge financial commitment to him which forces Kerr to play him a lot.

From mid-April (just a little over one (!) month ago):

We'd be lucky to trade Wiggins for anything decent this off season, but I think we'll take anything we can get. We have to keep Poole at all costs.

We have to keep Poole long term at any cost.

Talk about being erratic lol, not sure I've ever seen such a quick 180 on a player by one poster. It's good that decisions are made by level-headed evaluators that don't jump between extremes from one week to the next.

What makes it even funnier is that Poole is the same player he has been one month ago, except that he's now shown it in the playoffs and actually increased his scoring efficiency. The playoffs have not shown a single deficiency that we weren't already aware of.

This is true, but one intangible has spiked in the playoffs.. stupidity

Mechanical metrics miss it, but the dumb technical/tough guy act in G1 that we’re winning, the poor awareness (watch him hedge by blowing right by Luka!), the declining zone defense that he was good at in RS..

This is a guy we are talking about giving a significant chunk of cap, and there’s no nice way to put it.. but he’s showing a lot of the red flags Monta did. And with Monta you could at least point to his mentors as a reason why, they had no professionalism yet. But this current team is arguably one of the premiere teams ever for that, great locker room, smart players, a players coach.. my guard is up. We have avoided investing in dumb players and it’s worked out well, emphasized by when we do bring in dumb players and it’s effect on our defense.

So w/that in mind, I’d offer him a large extension, DGAF how much - max if you like - but ONLY if the last year is an option, no matter who’s. Because that option year would likely be post-Steph, and as of now I really don’t want to see a team where Poole has the keys

[The-Power]

This is true, but one intangible has spiked in the playoffs.. stupidity

Let's take this as factual (and not just a matter of perception). Either he's just stupid on the court, but then he cannot have been not stupid in the RS. Or he's just having more stupid moments, in which case that's entirely fixable (especially if it concerns moments of immaturity which are fairly normal for 22 year olds).

Listen, I'm not saying Poole is a max-level player at this point. But in this league, you pay young players for what they could realistically be. If Poole never improves past this point or even regresses, then he's not worth the big contract. But looking at his developmental curve and his well-documented work ethic, Poole is as good a bet as any young player to continue to improve.

Where he'll end up remains to be seen. Will he become an All-Star level player? Who knows. But if you liked Poole prior to the playoffs, you should still like him, because he performs as well – or even better – than he did in the RS and all of his deficiencies have already been present and on display before the playoffs.

It feels like the shifts in opinion on Poole are simply because people are getting tired of watching Poole for various reasons, and not because of anything actually relating to Poole's development, performance, upside, or changes in his personality or behavior. In other words, it seems to be much more about ‘likability’ than factors that should be relevant to the actual decision-makers.

[Money_]

This is the team that turned a 35th pick into an All Star, revived Javale McGee's and Demarcus Cousins careers, and is getting solid minutes from undrafted G-League vets, due to player development.
Wiseman is getting the education of a lifetime right now. All he needs is reps.

[FNQ]

. But looking at his developmental curve and his well-documented work ethic, Poole is as good a bet as any young player to continue to improve.

Disagree. He's making more mistakes than he was in the past. His developmental curve related to scoring was about opportunities, I was saying that last year when he should have been starting alongside Steph to close the season. His curve relative to defense has been consistently up and down and trending downwards. Conversely his passing has done the same, but is trending upwards (though the valleys have been really, really bad when he goes that route)

Based on that pattern, is he as good a bet as any? I'd argue no, he's not, and you couple that with the amount of maturity/focus mistakes he's making, and he's, almost to a T, following the path of Monta Ellis. If you don't want to be concerned about that, that's fine, but its not being pulled out of thin air

[Old_Blue]

But looking at his developmental curve and his well-documented work ethic, Poole is as good a bet as any young player to continue to improve.

Based on that pattern, is he as good a bet as any? I'd argue no, he's not, and you couple that with the amount of maturity/focus mistakes he's making, and he's, almost to a T, following the path of Monta Ellis. If you don't want to be concerned about that, that's fine, but its not being pulled out of thin air

You've been wrong about Poole every step of the way though. So, what do you know? Seems like you still "know zero about the kid!"

[FNQ]

But looking at his developmental curve and his well-documented work ethic, Poole is as good a bet as any young player to continue to improve.

Based on that pattern, is he as good a bet as any? I'd argue no, he's not, and you couple that with the amount of maturity/focus mistakes he's making, and he's, almost to a T, following the path of Monta Ellis. If you don't want to be concerned about that, that's fine, but its not being pulled out of thin air

You've been wrong about Poole every step of the way though. So, what do you know? Seems like you still "know zero about the kid!"

No one knows about anyone until they look at them, I said immediately after the draft that I didnt know about him and the book on him, pretty much every site, had him as a mid 2nd with unimpressive stats

See when I do research, its about players, when you do research, its about posters for your signature. I hope you're more useful in the real world than on here

[watch1958]

I’m one of the few who is still excited about Wiseman. Can’t wait to see him with the team next season!

I saw an interview recently where he just seemed older and more mature. Even compared to a few months ago, when he thought he'd play soon. Sounded almost grim and determined. Like he wants to play and be bigger and stronger than other dudes. Maybe he's given up on the fancy move stuff.

Also, he may have noticed that when Loney grabbed 22 boards, or scored 20 points, he was treated like a star. Maybe it will click that being a massive Kevon Looney could make him a high profile player.

[Old_Blue]

Based on that pattern, is he as good a bet as any? I'd argue no, he's not, and you couple that with the amount of maturity/focus mistakes he's making, and he's, almost to a T, following the path of Monta Ellis. If you don't want to be concerned about that, that's fine, but its not being pulled out of thin air

You've been wrong about Poole every step of the way though. So, what do you know? Seems like you still "know zero about the kid!"

No one knows about anyone until they look at them, I said immediately after the draft that I didnt know about him.

Then, you need to spend more time actually watching players and games, rather than just examining your own navel.

[Zvaart]

Unfortunately I think Wiseman has a picture in his mind of him being an all-star "go to" center on the offensive end, when we actually need him to be a better version of Looney.

Wiseman has the physical tools to be the kind of big we need, but I'm not sure he is willing, interested, or aware that he should be playing differently. Maybe I'm overreacting to his G-League film, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

I agree, it's kind of hilarious that he can watch what Curry, Draymond, & Klay are doing and think he's gonna be the man instead of them. The guy is delusional.

Yet another example of people sitting in front of a television or occasionally going to games suggesting they know EXACTLY what's going on in a player's mind -- and then using it to badmouth him. (It's particularly ridiculous with a guy who hasn't played in the league for over a year.) I may be alone in getting irritated by nonsense like this, but I know silly takes when I see them.

You want to say he's not worth keeping? Fine. That his type won't work for the current Warriors? Fine, too. You want to say he has to do better than he has in the past? Also absolutely reasonable. But sitting around griping about what's in his head without having the slightest knowledge of whether it's actually true? Pretty weak.

You are not alone on this, it was the first thing i thought about, and i was looking for somethungbhe said or done lately to deserve this. Still looking......

[wco81]

What's the alternative to Poole though?

They wouldn't be on the verge of the Finals without Poole. Maybe they'd have lost some more games and still won the first two series.

But who else is going to be a volume scorer off the bench, reliable at the FT line and somewhat reliable for big open 3s?

Let's say a lotto team bites and trades away a top 5 pick for a package which includes Poole. Is there anyone in the draft ready to score next season with good efficiency and range beyond the 3 point line?

Because win or lose, if and when they make the Finals, expectations for next season will be high. Team will expect to be in this position again and the WC will be much more competitive with key players coming back from injuries to make the Clippers and Nuggets much better.