James Wiseman 2021/2022

[azwfan]

Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.

Looney is pretty damn good at that… and he wasnt so good defending the perimeter fresh off the injury report either. Lets give Wiseman some time before we write him off. Looney was written off and turned out pretty good.

[FNQ]

Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.

Looney is pretty damn good at that… and he wasnt so good defending the perimeter fresh off the injury report either. Lets give Wiseman some time before we write him off. Looney was written off and turned out pretty good.

Looney was a bad perimeter defender at UCLA too FWIW.. and that was when they were still calling him a SF/PF

Just have to be smart and willing. Wiseman's defense, bad as it was, kept improving as he kept getting time, until an injury would reset him. But when he got time, he got better. So writing him off there doesnt track to me

As long as the young players are trending up with defense, its a good sign. Guys like Poole.. very, very questionable considering he's been bad and hasnt shown much in terms of improving it. Moody's gotten marginally better with inconsistent time. Kuminga... well he didn't get worse, so there's still a lot of hope there. But for young players, the trend matters way more than the current results, and certainly more than random dart throwing

[Big J]

Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.

Looney is pretty damn good at that… and he wasnt so good defending the perimeter fresh off the injury report either. Lets give Wiseman some time before we write him off. Looney was written off and turned out pretty good.

Looney was a bad perimeter defender at UCLA too FWIW.. and that was when they were still calling him a SF/PF

Just have to be smart and willing. Wiseman's defense, bad as it was, kept improving as he kept getting time, until an injury would reset him. But when he got time, he got better. So writing him off there doesnt track to me

As long as the young players are trending up with defense, its a good sign. Guys like Poole.. very, very questionable considering he's been bad and hasnt shown much in terms of improving it. Moody's gotten marginally better with inconsistent time. Kuminga... well he didn't get worse, so there's still a lot of hope there. But for young players, the trend matters way more than the current results, and certainly more than random dart throwing

This has nothing to do with him making improvements. It's about his archetype. Even multiple DPOY Rudy Gobert keeps getting exposed in the playoffs on defense because he can't guard the perimeter. It's not a skill he can improve at. Looney has a different body and can stay in front of guards because he has better balance and is like 4 inches shorter than these big centers.

[FNQ]

That's literally the argument every non Warrior fan said about Kevon Looney the past 2 seasons as I explained that he's one of the best perimeter defenders among Cs

But its good to know a 7', 240 lb man just simply cant be a good perimeter defender. Especially one who was drafted mainly because of his mobility as a 7 footer..

[azwfan]

Looney is pretty damn good at that… and he wasnt so good defending the perimeter fresh off the injury report either. Lets give Wiseman some time before we write him off. Looney was written off and turned out pretty good.

Looney was a bad perimeter defender at UCLA too FWIW.. and that was when they were still calling him a SF/PF

Just have to be smart and willing. Wiseman's defense, bad as it was, kept improving as he kept getting time, until an injury would reset him. But when he got time, he got better. So writing him off there doesnt track to me

As long as the young players are trending up with defense, its a good sign. Guys like Poole.. very, very questionable considering he's been bad and hasnt shown much in terms of improving it. Moody's gotten marginally better with inconsistent time. Kuminga... well he didn't get worse, so there's still a lot of hope there. But for young players, the trend matters way more than the current results, and certainly more than random dart throwing

This has nothing to do with him making improvements. It's about his archetype. Even multiple DPOY Rudy Gobert keeps getting exposed in the playoffs on defense because he can't guard the perimeter. It's not a skill he can improve at. Looney has a different body and can stay in front of guards because he has better balance and is like 4 inches shorter than these big centers.

Balance can be improved.
Big guys can defend (enough) on the perimeter - its not impossible. It does take training and experience though. He’ll never get better if he’s always on the injury report though.

[Big J]

That's literally the argument every non Warrior fan said about Kevon Looney the past 2 seasons as I explained that he's one of the best perimeter defenders among Cs

But its good to know a 7', 240 lb man just simply cant be a good perimeter defender. Especially one who was drafted mainly because of his mobility as a 7 footer..

We've only seen 2 guys who are 7 feet tall that could defend the perimeter effectively, Giannis & Kevin Durant, and neither of those guys had the same issues as Wiseman when they were rookies. So technically it's possible, but not very likely based on what we've seen.

[azwfan]

That's literally the argument every non Warrior fan said about Kevon Looney the past 2 seasons as I explained that he's one of the best perimeter defenders among Cs

But its good to know a 7', 240 lb man just simply cant be a good perimeter defender. Especially one who was drafted mainly because of his mobility as a 7 footer..

We've only seen 2 guys who are 7 feet tall that could defend the perimeter effectively, Giannis & Kevin Durant, and neither of those guys had the same issues as Wiseman when they were rookies. So technically it's possible, but not very likely based on what we've seen.

JJ and AD defend on the perimeter well.
KG defended on the perimeter well.
TD defender on the perimeter well.
Marcus Camby defended on the perimeter well.

Im sure theres some that just defend adequately- cause all of these guys were/ are elite.

Edit: Embiid comes to mind as adequate perimeter defenders that doesnt get played off the court.

[Big J]

That's literally the argument every non Warrior fan said about Kevon Looney the past 2 seasons as I explained that he's one of the best perimeter defenders among Cs

But its good to know a 7', 240 lb man just simply cant be a good perimeter defender. Especially one who was drafted mainly because of his mobility as a 7 footer..

We've only seen 2 guys who are 7 feet tall that could defend the perimeter effectively, Giannis & Kevin Durant, and neither of those guys had the same issues as Wiseman when they were rookies. So technically it's possible, but not very likely based on what we've seen.

JJ and AD defend on the perimeter well.
KG defended on the perimeter well.
TD defender on the perimeter well.
Marcus Camby defended on the perimeter well.

Im sure theres some that just defend adequately- cause all of these guys were/ are elite.

Edit: Embiid comes to mind as adequate perimeter defenders that doesnt get played off the court.

AD & JJJ yes you have a point with them. KG, Duncan, & Camby all played in an era when bigs weren't hunted like they are today. Though I'm sure that KG & Camby would do fine out there during their early years. All of those guys have different builds and move differently than Wiseman though.

Embiid got hunted and gashed by Trae Young last year in the playoffs.

[FNQ]

Trae Young woulda gashed the hell out of Looney too with the way he played last year.. Looney is great and all but let's not overinflate him. He's a great perimeter defender for a C, not a great perimeter defender. The fact that Memphis didnt switch him out on Ja early in the series (minimal usage) and that he's blown up since Ja went down and since Luka isn't exactly a burner.. these arent coincidences. If you put Looney on a guy with great handles and/or a quick player, he's going to get beat most of the time

Point blank, Wiseman is quicker than Looney. Looney wins on smarts. We dont know what Wiseman's defensive BBIQ will be because hes never been in the situation. Writing him off with absolutely no basis because of archetype is jumping way offsides

[Big J]

Yea, maybe I'm selling him short. I just see him maxing out as a rim runner who blocks a couple of shots, maybe hits a couple of 3s, and fouls a lot in the first 3 quarters games. Then he becomes unplayable at the end of the fourth when the other team spreads us out and goes at him hard. That kind of player has some value to a team, but number 2 pick value? No way.

[azwfan]

Yea, maybe I'm selling him short. I just see him maxing out as a rim runner who blocks a couple of shots, maybe hits a couple of 3s, and fouls a lot in the first 3 quarters games. Then he becomes unplayable at the end of the fourth when the other team spreads us out and goes at him hard. That kind of player has some value to a team, but number 2 pick value? No way.

Isn't that a healthy version of what he is now?

[FNQ]

Yea, maybe I'm selling him short. I just see him maxing out as a rim runner who blocks a couple of shots, maybe hits a couple of 3s, and fouls a lot in the first 3 quarters games. Then he becomes unplayable at the end of the fourth when the other team spreads us out and goes at him hard. That kind of player has some value to a team, but number 2 pick value? No way.

I think the vision for him is that he'd be capable enough to be an option to close the game, kinda like Looney is now

I dont think it was a good pick and I think it would take a while for him to reach the potential they saw him at, but it is what it is now. He's not a #2 pick, he's a player on our roster now. Now if the W's start taking steps to try and justify his selection at the cost of the team, that's a problem. But there's a non zero chance that he becomes capable enough of a 2 way player to provide a big alternative in our death squad. The 5th member has become an interchangeable one after our 1st year and I think that becomes more important as we get older and our options at 5th man become lesser and lesser. Back when it was Iguodala, that was the peak.. but this past year we've used GP2, OPJ, Poole, Looney.. more potential options means we can ride the hot hand or the best matchup.

Because at some point, a team is going to be better than us at running the small unit, and we're going to need a counter

[Samurai]

Interesting article in The Athletic (behind a paywall) about the effect Milojevic had on Looney's improved rebounding; the article referred to him as Moses MaLooney!). Milojevic takes pride in how the big men he's worked with, particularly Jokic, have become very good rebounders. Milojevic learned about rebounding by studying Dennis Rodman and has been teaching Looney the intricacies of the trajectory of the ball and whether it was shot strong or soft to best determine where the rebound will be and moving to those spots before the ball hits the rim. The article also mentioned that Looney always loved to bang, but Milo taught him how to strategically box out, how to initiate contact to keep the opposing rebounder on the ground, and how to use angles to get better positioning.

Besides Looney, Milojevic was obviously hired to work with Wiseman and teach him the same things and that Milo was happy to see Wiseman grab 15 boards in 42 minutes (over 2 games) during his SC stint this season. Hopefully Milo's coaching can also help Wiseman take a big step forward as a rebounder as Looney has done.

[Big J]

Let's hope Wiseman learns how to rebound. The lasting image I have of him rebounding during his rookie year is that of him mistiming his jump and then flying sideways in the opposite direction of the ball any time a guy on the other team banged into him.

[clyde21]

Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.

Looney is pretty damn good at that… and he wasnt so good defending the perimeter fresh off the injury report either. Lets give Wiseman some time before we write him off. Looney was written off and turned out pretty good.

Looney was a bad perimeter defender at UCLA too FWIW.. and that was when they were still calling him a SF/PF

Just have to be smart and willing. Wiseman's defense, bad as it was, kept improving as he kept getting time, until an injury would reset him. But when he got time, he got better. So writing him off there doesnt track to me

As long as the young players are trending up with defense, its a good sign. Guys like Poole.. very, very questionable considering he's been bad and hasnt shown much in terms of improving it. Moody's gotten marginally better with inconsistent time. Kuminga... well he didn't get worse, so there's still a lot of hope there. But for young players, the trend matters way more than the current results, and certainly more than random dart throwing

Loon had pretty outlier development tho that u cant really project on anyone else, he completely transformed his game after the hip injuries that zapped all of his athleticism, learned positioning, boxing out, screen setting and has become a passable paint defender...that type of transformation has to come internally from the player, the player himself has to realize what he is and build his game around his abilities to fit into what we need him to do

maybe that Wiseman now, I don't know, but that's not a developmental path i'm banking on. not saying Wiseman won't be passable defensively, obviously he has the size+athleticism to get there, but is the mentality and 'want to' there for him to really apply these things where he needs to do?

at the end of the day, if Wiseman doesn't turn into a great rebounder, AT LEAST a + defender who understands player and ball movement and learns how to box out and set screens, he's gonna be pretty useless here.

[Big J]

Yea he’s got a lot to learn. He won’t be useless though. Probably gonna end up as a slightly better scoring worse defensive McGee.

[lars_rosenberg]

My problem with Wiseman is not what he can or can not do.
My problem is that he's raw and he barely played in the last 3 years.
Even if he manages to stay healthy, he's a long term project, he'll take years to develop.
His salary as a 2nd overall pick is not low. Next season he's going to make more than Poole and Kuminga combined.
Hopefully we won't have to let anyone go to save money on luxury tax that will go to pay Wiseman.

[and1GS]

The most shocking reminder of this thread is that Looney was originally projected as a 3. Can you imagine slashing Looney at SF lmfao

[Scoots1994]

The most shocking reminder of this thread is that Looney was originally projected as a 3. Can you imagine slashing Looney at SF lmfao

Someone actually thought he'd be a 3? I saw him at UCLA and never thought he'd be an NBA 3.

[a8bil]

The most shocking reminder of this thread is that Looney was originally projected as a 3. Can you imagine slashing Looney at SF lmfao

Someone actually thought he'd be a 3? I saw him at UCLA and never thought he'd be an NBA 3.

Some thought he was the next coming of durant...he was pretty active as a high schooler and had some perimeter game. The bad hips have limited that significantly. Will be interesting to see if he continues to gain lower body strength.