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WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1561 » by lars_rosenberg » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:25 pm

whatisacenter wrote:
clyde21 wrote:no, it still didn't make sense before the draft. none of this is hindsight. i was here before the draft talking about the bad fit here in real time. you don't need to be Jim Naismith to understand that a single-level, high-usage C who doesn't know how to set screens/picks is not a great fit for this motion scheme and offense.

if you just wanted an athletic C that can roll, catch lobs and create some vert spacing we did that by signing McGee one year, you can find those guys, but the archetype at C for us all these years we've been winning rings has never been a 5 like Wiseman. again, none of this hindsight.


I’m just glad you had him pigeon holed before his 20th birthday and that he has already reached his potential. Now we can all move on that our resident expert has spoken.


You could use this non-argument for any young player and stifle any kind of discussion.
You could instead motivate what has Wiseman shown to be considered a potential stud, because all objective measurements indicate he sucks.
As a Warriors fan I want him to be great, but you can not fool yourself and counter any criticism just by saying "it's too early". Players don't become stars just out of the blue, they need to develop steadily and Wiseman did not show any sign of being able to play winning basketball.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1562 » by GSWFan1994 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:51 pm

You know what's funny?

Lots of people who are saying "LaMelo was the right pick all along, Wiseman sucks" were the same people who said Isaac Okoro was a clear cut top 3 pick too. There were even members here who said he deserved to be the #1 pick.

If Wiseman was a wasted pick and probable bust according to some, what about Okoro, who's averaging 8/3/2 in 32mpg, including an awesome 7,2 PER?
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1563 » by shazam_guy » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:46 pm

What "objective measurements" indicate "he sucks"?
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1564 » by Old_Blue » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:53 pm

shazam_guy wrote:What "objective measurements" indicate "he sucks"?


"I shall not today attempt further to define (obscenity)...I know it when I see it ..." Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart (Jacobellis v. Ohio, 1964)

Were Justice Stewart alive today, he'd be able to tell that Wiseman sucks. :lol:
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1565 » by Warriors Analyst » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:29 pm

shazam_guy wrote:What "objective measurements" indicate "he sucks"?


It's not entirely his fault because it's obvious that Kerr misued Wiseman for most of the season, but the advanced metrics all rate Wiseman as one of the worst offensive players in all of basketball. His OBPM on the year is -4.0. For reference, in 52 games in 2012-13, Andris Biedrins had a -4.8 OBPM because he shot 45% TS and took 22 shots on the entire year. Before the Chicago game, which marked a turning point stylistically, Wiseman was at -4.4 OBPM on the year.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1566 » by sonnyhill » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:45 pm

We keep going back-and-forth on should the Warriors have drafted Wiseman over Ball (obviously not), how Kerr's ossified stubbornness was not conducive towards Wiseman's development, and the organizational tension on either win now vs develop Wiseman; and, it makes for good board debate.

Wiseman is a Warrior; because of his injury is probably not tradeable; and the team needs Wiseman to develop and improve. This article, written by Rod Benson on SFGate, "Writing off Warriors' James Wiseman after his torn meniscus? You're dead wrong - here's why" may give us an alternative viewpoint...and on how Wiseman may use this knee injury and time away from the team to rehab as his own crucible to get "grimy" and to improve his game.

https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/james-wiseman-golden-state-warriors-james-wiseman-16087100.php

Writing off Warriors' James Wiseman after his torn meniscus? You're dead wrong - here's why
SFGATE columnist Rod Benson on the grimy jerseys and wild slap that rejuvenated his hoop dreams, and why Wiseman should seek out his own 'grimy' moment.
Rod Benson

When I was James Wiseman's age, I was a sophomore basketball player at Cal. The season prior in 2002, I was on the “Gold Squad,” which consisted of the backups and the walk-ons who ran the scout offense and occasionally saw game time. I thought my sophomore year would be the moment I got to the “Blue Squad,” but instead I was demoted even further. We had just acquired one of Cal's greatest recruiting classes ever: Leon Powe, Ayinde Ubaka, Dominic McGuire and Marquise Kately. They were all immediately thrust into starring roles.

The telltale sign of the demotion was getting tossed the mesh jerseys for players who were only tasked with running the scout offense at practice. When the mesh jerseys came out, David Paris looked at me and said, “Man, these some grimy jerseys. I guess we on the grimy team now.” I took it as a sign that Cal wasn't going to be the program for me going forward. I called my mom to let her know that I was interested in transferring. My mom told me that wasn’t going to happen, and to “figure it out, ‘cause you're not leaving.”

I listened to her, but I also figured I had nothing left to lose and something had to change. The next day, I made an (irrational) decision: I was going to slap the first teammate I saw. This wasn’t smart thinking, but it was the best thing I could come up with to shake things up.

So that’s exactly what I did. I entered the code for the locker room, opened the door, tapped a player who was facing away from me on the shoulder (who shall remain nameless) and before he could fully turn around, I slapped the s—t out of him. Everyone went silent for at least a full bar of the 50 Cent song that was playing. Once the shock wore off, the nameless player proceeded to beat me up because I wasn't really prepared for a fight. But I gotta say, the slap made me a wild card, and nobody really got in my way again.

My wild card status paid dividends on the court, too. Here I was in this stupid mesh grimy jersey, but I was talking hella trash. I started hitting people. I was always matched up with Amit Tamir so he got the brunt of it. I’d steal the ball from him, dribble to the other end, dunk it, kick the ball into the stands and scream directly at the coaching staff to GIVE ME MY DAMN MINUTES. I was writing “grimy” on my shoes at the end of every game I didn’t play. My shoes were covered within weeks. Soon enough, I was showing pro-level flashes that I carried for the rest of my career. It was an abrupt transition, and an overcorrection for sure, but it led me to a style of game that was entirely my own. I was eventually able to take that game and fit in with every team I played for in the NBA D-League, Korean Basketball League and other stops. It’s not like these were skills that were taught to me. They were almost acquired like I was in a video game, unburdening myself from teachings that held me back.

I tell the slap story to highlight that in basketball, every player has to find their own game, and it ain’t a pretty process. In fact, it’s often a rejection of someone else's idea for how your game is supposed to look. And I believe that as James Wiseman rehabs and recovers from his torn meniscus, he has an opportunity to unlock his own "grimy" potential and come back as a star next season.

Wiseman was averaging 11.5 points, 5.8 rebounds and 0.9 blocks in 21.4 minutes before his season-ending injury against the Houston Rockets. His numbers, on a per minute basis, met or exceeded many of Dwight Howard’s rookie numbers. Wiseman’s 0.7 assists per game are a bit worrisome, since the Warriors have an offense predicated on ball movement, but what’s wild is he's spent his rookie campaign showcasing a dumbed-down, undefined version of his skill set. He essentially played like he was Festus Ezeli and a lot less like he was Kevin Garnett.

During the Warriors-Bucks broadcast a few weeks ago, TNT’s Shaquille O’Neal was applauding Wiseman, highlighting plays where he looked like Andrew Bogut. Andrew. Bogut. It’s not that Bogut wasn't a good NBA player with a long career, it’s that Wiseman has the potential to be so much more. Thing is, Shaq wasn’t totally off-base: In his current head space, in the current iteration of this Dubs’ offense, Wiseman can really only be a Bogut. Such a sharp difference in expectations versus reality would leave anyone feeling less confident.

Even before his injury, Wiseman's transition to the pros was unusually fraught. It’s incredibly rare in modern pro sports for a high draft pick to end up on an established team. What’s even rarer is for that team to have a system as heady as the Warriors’ scheme. While there may not be a ton of plays, the intuitive nature of it all makes it one of the toughest schemes to comprehend, and that’s doubly true for a rookie. When I was at training camp with the New Jersey Nets, I legitimately never understood what the hell we were doing. It didn’t matter because I was the last guy on the roster, but it was an offense designed solely for Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter. Even that system had less movement than the Warriors. They don’t have a plug-and-play offense. It requires incredibly basketball-savvy players to work. Not only that, but most of the desired outcomes of their offense are quick-trigger threes and layups via backdoor cuts. It’s not exactly the kind of halfcourt offense that allows a player with a true inside-out game to thrive.

To his credit, coach Steve Kerr has commented on what's become an obvious issue, and before Wiseman went down, Kerr was making adjustments to the offense to incorporate more pick-and-roll action. The problem is that Kerr’s pick-and-roll development came late in the season, and after Wiseman rehabs and returns to action for 2021-22, the offense will mostly revert back to what it was previously. Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Steph Curry know Kerr's offense and love it. It’s clear that the Warriors believe in Wiseman, but like all established systems, they are prisoners of their own success and don’t know how to completely reinvent themselves for a new talent.

I’ve seen Kerr and Green work with Wiseman during games, and the results have been well-meaning but so-so. One game, I heard a mic'd up Green tell Wiseman that he likes his mid-range shots but he likes his drives to the basket even more. Afterwards, when Wiseman took a mid-range shot, it looked awkward and missed by a mile. When a player begins to overprocess, the words they’re taking in end up jumbled. Anyone who has ever tried to fix their broken golf swing can attest that the other three guys in the foursome aren’t helping, no matter how good they are.

In lieu of significant, sustained changes to the Dubs’ offense, which seems unlikely, Wiseman’s best bet to achieving his potential as he prepares for next season is to unlock his version of grimy. I am not recommending he slap someone, although if he slapped Draymond Green and said, “Gimme the damn ball!” I could see Dray, sporting a bloody lip, responding, “What took you so long?!” I’m also not recommending Wiseman purposefully alter his personality and turn into a headache. But he does need to tune everything out and think about what kind of NBA player he wants to become.

It’s on Wiseman to determine which parcels of information he appreciates, and which he should ignore. That’s hard for a young player, but it’s imperative that he gets there. Kerr’s advice is solid and right. So is Green’s. So is Curry’s. But for Wiseman to reach stardom, he has to use this recovery time to redefine what’s “right” to him, and he'll have to keep in mind that this decision might rub some the wrong way. He must proceed as if the franchise is on his back — which it will be sooner than later — and he has the power to slap people into accepting the best, most confident version of his game. If Wiseman were in Minnesota, he’d be able to fumble his way to stardom with no consequences. In Golden State, he still needs to fumble to stardom despite the consequences.

To the Warriors fans who have been quick to label Wiseman as lacking confidence, or proclaiming that he doesn't fit with the team? You're wrong and you're short-sighted. I don't fault you for being short-sighted because you won championships recently and you're hoping that the window is still open for another Curry-Thompson-Green title. But I guarantee if you try to rush Wiseman into being Bogut, he won’t access his grimy side and he won't be good enough to take you where you want to go. He needs to find his own game on his own terms and not give a damn if you don’t like it.

You had Adonal Foyle for like, 15 years. You’ll be fine to wait this one out a little bit longer.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1567 » by clyde21 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:45 pm

lol...the stupidity of this FO.

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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1568 » by Onus » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:54 pm

clyde21 wrote:welp

Read on Twitter

Surprising he would admit at how inept the front office and scouting department is
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1569 » by GQ Hot Dog » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:06 am

Onus wrote:
clyde21 wrote:welp

Read on Twitter

Surprising he would admit at how inept the front office and scouting department is


It's not ineptitude. They saw everything we saw but they got trapped in the lure of Wiseman's potential and the spot they were picking in. I wish they had taken #4 and WCJ for the #2 pick but that's what getting trapped means.

We fantasize about our organization drafting players in a vacuum but perfect objectivity is just not possible. They knew Wiseman would be raw, they hoped he would be enough of a natural baller to move quickly through the rawness to perform a role with consistency. That looked like it might have been happening but now he's done for the season and there's nothing left to do but look to next season to see if he can continue that trajectory.

It was a calculated risk, based on the potential reward and while the gamble didn't pay off spectacularly, it also didn't fail spectacularly.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1570 » by clyde21 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:09 am

it was a stupid ass risk that didn't make any sense, even the most remedial basketball watcher can see you don't draft a high usage single level C high just to put him in a movement offense, just sheer dumbery on every level, and that's not even talking about the standalone talent if it was worthy of a high pick in today's NBA on it's own.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1571 » by Onus » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:23 am

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
Onus wrote:
clyde21 wrote:welp

Read on Twitter

Surprising he would admit at how inept the front office and scouting department is


It's not ineptitude. They saw everything we saw but they got trapped in the lure of Wiseman's potential and the spot they were picking in. I wish they had taken #4 and WCJ for the #2 pick but that's what getting trapped means.

We fantasize about our organization drafting players in a vacuum but perfect objectivity is just not possible. They knew Wiseman would be raw, they hoped he would be enough of a natural baller to move quickly through the rawness to perform a role with consistency. That looked like it might have been happening but now he's done for the season and there's nothing left to do but look to next season to see if he can continue that trajectory.

It was a calculated risk, based on the potential reward and while the gamble didn't pay off spectacularly, it also didn't fail spectacularly.

It is ineptitude. He literally says they didn’t sense how raw he was.

Is it a calculated risk? What is the max reward with wiseman?
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1572 » by Twinkie defense » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:37 am

clyde21 wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:
clyde21 wrote:no, i don't want to be right about Wiseman, because if I am right then we pretty much wasted a 2nd overall pick, I would much rather be wrong about this and you guys right about him being the next Anthony Davis or whoever, obviously.

and I am much more concerned with the thought process that led us to Wiseman than Wiseman himself...in a vacuum Wise will be a fine player...I dunno, somewhere in the Ayton/Drummond tier or range I guess for me like I've always said...but the biggest problem are the decisions and thought processes I see that has led to us to a roster full completely anti-Warriors type of players, including Wiseman...and that's the biggest take away from here.

Stylistically Wiseman seems to be the opposite player of Drummond. Total opposite.


i said he's in the Drummond tier as a player, I didn't say he's similar to Drummond


2× NBA All-Star
All-NBA Third Team
4× NBA rebounding leader

:-o
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1573 » by Old_Blue » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:38 am

clyde21 wrote:
Read on Twitter


We've been demanding the truth. Now that we get it, it's more terrifying than we ever imagined.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1574 » by clyde21 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:42 am

Twinkie defense wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:Stylistically Wiseman seems to be the opposite player of Drummond. Total opposite.


i said he's in the Drummond tier as a player, I didn't say he's similar to Drummond


2× NBA All-Star
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:-o


thanks, I can read Drummond's bio on bball ref too.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1575 » by WarriorGM » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:52 am

Warriors Analyst wrote:
shazam_guy wrote:What "objective measurements" indicate "he sucks"?


It's not entirely his fault because it's obvious that Kerr misued Wiseman for most of the season, but the advanced metrics all rate Wiseman as one of the worst offensive players in all of basketball. His OBPM on the year is -4.0. For reference, in 52 games in 2012-13, Andris Biedrins had a -4.8 OBPM because he shot 45% TS and took 22 shots on the entire year. Before the Chicago game, which marked a turning point stylistically, Wiseman was at -4.4 OBPM on the year.


There are really only two ways to read this. Either (1) Wiseman just isn't any good or (2) the coaching and development staff are completely misusing him. Given the team's previous history with athletic centers I'm leaning towards the latter. Wiseman was a consensus top 3 pick. He shouldn't be devoid of talent.

I like Benson's take in the article he wrote. Wiseman might need to assert himself and guide his handlers in the direction he thinks makes the most use of his talents and inclinations rather than trying to conform to the mold the coaching staff are trying to stuff him into.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1576 » by Twinkie defense » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:53 am

I'm glad you knuckleheads aren't running the Warriors!
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1577 » by clyde21 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:24 am

Twinkie defense wrote:I'm glad you knuckleheads aren't running the Warriors!


glad myers and the front office have you here to defend their honor
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1578 » by DIO » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:03 pm

clyde21 wrote:lol...the stupidity of this FO.

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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1579 » by GQ Hot Dog » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:57 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Warriors Analyst wrote:
shazam_guy wrote:What "objective measurements" indicate "he sucks"?


It's not entirely his fault because it's obvious that Kerr misued Wiseman for most of the season, but the advanced metrics all rate Wiseman as one of the worst offensive players in all of basketball. His OBPM on the year is -4.0. For reference, in 52 games in 2012-13, Andris Biedrins had a -4.8 OBPM because he shot 45% TS and took 22 shots on the entire year. Before the Chicago game, which marked a turning point stylistically, Wiseman was at -4.4 OBPM on the year.


There are really only two ways to read this. Either (1) Wiseman just isn't any good or (2) the coaching and development staff are completely misusing him. Given the team's previous history with athletic centers I'm leaning towards the latter. Wiseman was a consensus top 3 pick. He shouldn't be devoid of talent.

I like Benson's take in the article he wrote. Wiseman might need to assert himself and guide his handlers in the direction he thinks makes the most use of his talents and inclinations rather than trying to conform to the mold the coaching staff are trying to stuff him into.


I'm surprised this narrative that Wiseman is being misused has arisen. Didn't we all see the video? He's exactly what he appeared to be, nobody should be surprised. That doesn't mean he isn't any good, it means big men take longer to develop. What also shouldn't be surprising is that his development curve is not unusually steep. Any hopes that it would be were always unlikely.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1580 » by Warriors Analyst » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:58 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Warriors Analyst wrote:
It's not entirely his fault because it's obvious that Kerr misued Wiseman for most of the season, but the advanced metrics all rate Wiseman as one of the worst offensive players in all of basketball. His OBPM on the year is -4.0. For reference, in 52 games in 2012-13, Andris Biedrins had a -4.8 OBPM because he shot 45% TS and took 22 shots on the entire year. Before the Chicago game, which marked a turning point stylistically, Wiseman was at -4.4 OBPM on the year.


There are really only two ways to read this. Either (1) Wiseman just isn't any good or (2) the coaching and development staff are completely misusing him. Given the team's previous history with athletic centers I'm leaning towards the latter. Wiseman was a consensus top 3 pick. He shouldn't be devoid of talent.

I like Benson's take in the article he wrote. Wiseman might need to assert himself and guide his handlers in the direction he thinks makes the most use of his talents and inclinations rather than trying to conform to the mold the coaching staff are trying to stuff him into.


I'm surprised this narrative that Wiseman is being misused has arisen. Didn't we all see the video? He's exactly what he appeared to be, nobody should be surprised. That doesn't mean he isn't any good, it means big men take longer to develop. What also shouldn't be surprising is that his development curve is not unusually steep. Any hopes that it would be were always unlikely.


Multiple things are true here. Wiseman wasn't going to be good this year and anyone who watched his game against Oregon could have predicted he wouldn't be an positively impactful NBA player this year. Wiseman was also misused for most of the year due to Kerr's unwillingness to put him in PNR situations.

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