Around the NBA V: Live and Let Die

[wco81]

playoffs haunted by injuries to stars because of crazy scheduled where teams play 10 games in 8 days and every other day in the playoffs with minimal rest between series. .
draft lottery clearly rigged (once again).
how long before that human gargoyle disguised a commissioner is forced to leave by any means necessary? his tenure has lasted long enough.

I think the owners are pleased. Franchise values keep going up and Silver just got them a record TV deal, triple the previous deal, which itself was a huge jump over the preceding deal.

Expansion is going to also bring them billions to split up in franchise fees.

And basically the Second Apron rules got them a de facto hard cap or at least harder cap than before, so that will keep salaries down.

The only owners who may not be happy are the bottom teams, which not only got passed up in this lottery but have not won it in the past 7 years or so.

It's amazing the pundits on ESPN talking about how the lottery is great, the NFL should adopt it, because it punished the tanking teams. Of course the implication is that the lottery is fixed to punish tanking teams but they won't outright say how it would have to be rigged for Dallas to win it, following the loss of Luca and how other teams were "compensated" in the past for losing stars.

[vvoland]

playoffs haunted by injuries to stars because of crazy scheduled where teams play 10 games in 8 days and every other day in the playoffs with minimal rest between series. .
draft lottery clearly rigged (once again).
how long before that human gargoyle disguised a commissioner is forced to leave by any means necessary? his tenure has lasted long enough.

I think the owners are pleased. Franchise values keep going up and Silver just got them a record TV deal, triple the previous deal, which itself was a huge jump over the preceding deal.

Expansion is going to also bring them billions to split up in franchise fees.

And basically the Second Apron rules got them a de facto hard cap or at least harder cap than before, so that will keep salaries down.

The only owners who may not be happy are the bottom teams, which not only got passed up in this lottery but have not won it in the past 7 years or so.

It's amazing the pundits on ESPN talking about how the lottery is great, the NFL should adopt it, because it punished the tanking teams. Of course the implication is that the lottery is fixed to punish tanking teams but they won't outright say how it would have to be rigged for Dallas to win it, following the loss of Luca and how other teams were "compensated" in the past for losing stars.

Why risk all of that by rigging the lottery. Remember, the best odds are only 1/7. Sure, Dallas had a 1/50 odds and that's pretty low but did the NBA also rig the lottery to help out NO and CLE multiple times? And no one has ever spilled the tea? Especially the teams getting railed by this supposed conspiracy?

[xdrta+]

Sure, Dallas had a 1/50 odds and that's pretty low .....

Yeah, people act like a 1 in 50 chance means it could never happen. And then somehow relate it to the Luka trade. So tiresome.

[vvoland]

Sure, Dallas had a 1/50 odds and that's pretty low .....

Yeah, people act like a 1 in 50 chance means it could never happen. And then somehow relate it to the Luka trade. So tiresome.

People gamble on far worse odds in casinos, every day. By the same token, they would also never risk anything significant on a 1/7 chance to win and then act shocked with the wizards don't win the lottery.

[wco81]

playoffs haunted by injuries to stars because of crazy scheduled where teams play 10 games in 8 days and every other day in the playoffs with minimal rest between series. .
draft lottery clearly rigged (once again).
how long before that human gargoyle disguised a commissioner is forced to leave by any means necessary? his tenure has lasted long enough.

I think the owners are pleased. Franchise values keep going up and Silver just got them a record TV deal, triple the previous deal, which itself was a huge jump over the preceding deal.

Expansion is going to also bring them billions to split up in franchise fees.

And basically the Second Apron rules got them a de facto hard cap or at least harder cap than before, so that will keep salaries down.

The only owners who may not be happy are the bottom teams, which not only got passed up in this lottery but have not won it in the past 7 years or so.

It's amazing the pundits on ESPN talking about how the lottery is great, the NFL should adopt it, because it punished the tanking teams. Of course the implication is that the lottery is fixed to punish tanking teams but they won't outright say how it would have to be rigged for Dallas to win it, following the loss of Luca and how other teams were "compensated" in the past for losing stars.

Why risk all of that by rigging the lottery. Remember, the best odds are only 1/7. Sure, Dallas had a 1/50 odds and that's pretty low but did the NBA also rig the lottery to help out NO and CLE multiple times? And no one has ever spilled the tea? Especially the teams getting railed by this supposed conspiracy?

Yeah they gave Cavs Kyrie after Lebron left and they gifted NO twice, once after they bought the Pelicans, they gave them AD and then after AD left, they gave them Zion.

They are relieved that they have a franchise there, owned by the family which owns the Saints.

Because for a time the league had to take over that franchise and there was a real chance that team would have to be shut down unless an owner came up.

Watch, if the Celtics have a down season next season because of Tatum and they have to shed salaries this summer, if they end up in the lottery, they could get AJ Dybantsa.

[Jester_]

I think the owners are pleased. Franchise values keep going up and Silver just got them a record TV deal, triple the previous deal, which itself was a huge jump over the preceding deal.

Expansion is going to also bring them billions to split up in franchise fees.

And basically the Second Apron rules got them a de facto hard cap or at least harder cap than before, so that will keep salaries down.

The only owners who may not be happy are the bottom teams, which not only got passed up in this lottery but have not won it in the past 7 years or so.

It's amazing the pundits on ESPN talking about how the lottery is great, the NFL should adopt it, because it punished the tanking teams. Of course the implication is that the lottery is fixed to punish tanking teams but they won't outright say how it would have to be rigged for Dallas to win it, following the loss of Luca and how other teams were "compensated" in the past for losing stars.

Why risk all of that by rigging the lottery. Remember, the best odds are only 1/7. Sure, Dallas had a 1/50 odds and that's pretty low but did the NBA also rig the lottery to help out NO and CLE multiple times? And no one has ever spilled the tea? Especially the teams getting railed by this supposed conspiracy?

Yeah they gave Cavs Kyrie after Lebron left and they gifted NO twice, once after they bought the Pelicans, they gave them AD and then after AD left, they gave them Zion.

They are relieved that they have a franchise there, owned by the family which owns the Saints.

Because for a time the league had to take over that franchise and there was a real chance that team would have to be shut down unless an owner came up.

Watch, if the Celtics have a down season next season because of Tatum and they have to shed salaries this summer, if they end up in the lottery, they could get AJ Dybantsa.

and now can you please explain to me why NBA executives would each risk 20 years in san quentin to do this?

[Old_Blue]

Watch, if the Celtics have a down season next season because of Tatum and they have to shed salaries this summer, if they end up in the lottery, they could get AJ Dybantsa.

and now can you please explain to me why NBA executives would each risk 20 years in san quentin to do this?

The idea that anyone within the NBA would serve any time in prison for predetermining the outcome of a draft intrigues me. Why? Because, at first blush, the act of "rigging" a professional sports draft, while certainly likely to result in civil lawsuits and arbitration battles (stemming from violations of the CBA) doesn't appear to violate any federal or state crime. The affected parties, teams and players included, would have claims of fraud and misrepresentation. But, these are torts resulting in civil claims, the penalty for which is just payment of a monetary damage. I know of no federal code sections pertaining to the manner in which a professional sports league operates its draft the violation of which would result in criminal penalties. If you know otherwise, please feel free to offer the code section. Like I said, the idea intrigues me.

[xdrta+]

The idea that anyone within the NBA would serve any time in prison for predetermining the outcome of a draft intrigues me.

There are criminal fraud statutes that could apply.

[Old_Blue]

The idea that anyone within the NBA would serve any time in prison for predetermining the outcome of a draft intrigues me.

There are criminal fraud statutes that could apply.

Like I said, name the code sections. I'm sincerely curious. In order to allege fraud - whether state or federal and whether civil or criminal - you have to establish that there was a defrauded party who, as a result of the fraud, lost some benefit to which they were otherwise entitled. Who was defrauded here? The public? What, if any, benefit to which they were entitled did they lose? The role of state and local government is not to ensure that you never learn that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

[xdrta+]

The idea that anyone within the NBA would serve any time in prison for predetermining the outcome of a draft intrigues me.

There are criminal fraud statutes that could apply.

Like I said, name the code sections. I'm sincerely curious. In order to allege fraud - whether state or federal and whether civil or criminal - you have to establish that there was a defrauded party who, as a result of the fraud, lost some benefit to which they were otherwise entitled. Who was defrauded here? The public? What, if any, benefit to which they were entitled did they lose? The role of state and local government is not to ensure that you never learn that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

It might come under match fixing laws, which is a federal crime. Obviously, there is no specific law aimed at the draft lottery, but I could see where it might fall under match fixing laws. Since the Supreme Court overturned the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act (PASPA), allowing states to freely regulate sports gambling, a majority of states have enacted match fixing laws in addition to federal laws. It might seem a stretch, but I could see it being argued.

[Old_Blue]

There are criminal fraud statutes that could apply.

Like I said, name the code sections. I'm sincerely curious. In order to allege fraud - whether state or federal and whether civil or criminal - you have to establish that there was a defrauded party who, as a result of the fraud, lost some benefit to which they were otherwise entitled. Who was defrauded here? The public? What, if any, benefit to which they were entitled did they lose? The role of state and local government is not to ensure that you never learn that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

It might come under match fixing laws, which is a federal crime. Obviously, there is no specific law aimed at the draft lottery, but I could see where it might fall under match fixing laws. Since the Supreme Court overturned the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act (PASPA), allowing states to freely regulate sports gambling, a majority of states have enacted match fixing laws in addition to federal laws. It might seem a stretch, but I could see it being argued.

I looked into this already. There is existing federal legislation regarding rigging of sports contests and even game shows. However, this legislation requires elements of bribery and/or coercion. Where would be the bribery and/or coercion if a sports commissioner simply decided that the #1 pick going to one particular team was in the best business interests of his league?

[vvoland]

Like I said, name the code sections. I'm sincerely curious. In order to allege fraud - whether state or federal and whether civil or criminal - you have to establish that there was a defrauded party who, as a result of the fraud, lost some benefit to which they were otherwise entitled. Who was defrauded here? The public? What, if any, benefit to which they were entitled did they lose? The role of state and local government is not to ensure that you never learn that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

It might come under match fixing laws, which is a federal crime. Obviously, there is no specific law aimed at the draft lottery, but I could see where it might fall under match fixing laws. Since the Supreme Court overturned the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act (PASPA), allowing states to freely regulate sports gambling, a majority of states have enacted match fixing laws in addition to federal laws. It might seem a stretch, but I could see it being argued.

I looked into this already. There is existing federal legislation regarding rigging of sports contests and even game shows. However, this legislation requires elements of bribery and/or coercion. Where would be the bribery and/or coercion if a sports commissioner simply decided that the #1 pick going to one particular team was in the best business interests of his league?

Can we ask why the league would risk this becoming public and lose all credibility and semblance of fair competition? The NBA would lose 90% of fans if the commish just gave teams draft picks.

That's before we get to the idea that dozens, if not hundreds, of people would have known about this and never revealed it. Not even after getting fired or getting their team taken away or whatever... Really? Have you met people?

[xdrta+]

Like I said, name the code sections. I'm sincerely curious. In order to allege fraud - whether state or federal and whether civil or criminal - you have to establish that there was a defrauded party who, as a result of the fraud, lost some benefit to which they were otherwise entitled. Who was defrauded here? The public? What, if any, benefit to which they were entitled did they lose? The role of state and local government is not to ensure that you never learn that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

It might come under match fixing laws, which is a federal crime. Obviously, there is no specific law aimed at the draft lottery, but I could see where it might fall under match fixing laws. Since the Supreme Court overturned the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act (PASPA), allowing states to freely regulate sports gambling, a majority of states have enacted match fixing laws in addition to federal laws. It might seem a stretch, but I could see it being argued.

I looked into this already. There is existing federal legislation regarding rigging of sports contests and even game shows. However, this legislation requires elements of bribery and/or coercion. Where would be the bribery and/or coercion if a sports commissioner simply decided that the #1 pick going to one particular team was in the best business interests of his league?

Well, I doubt that one person would have that power. There are numerous types of fraud laws; conspiracy, false claims, wire fraud, false statement, etc. I don't doubt that charges could be found. But, since the whole idea of a rigged lottery is ridiculous, there will never be a need.

[vvoland]

Id be surprised if the league, considering their gambling partners allow betting on the draft, would not be criminally liable to the bettors. I'm not a lawyer, didn't play one on tv, or start in a holiday in last night so, grain of salt, of course.

[Old_Blue]

It might come under match fixing laws, which is a federal crime. Obviously, there is no specific law aimed at the draft lottery, but I could see where it might fall under match fixing laws. Since the Supreme Court overturned the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act (PASPA), allowing states to freely regulate sports gambling, a majority of states have enacted match fixing laws in addition to federal laws. It might seem a stretch, but I could see it being argued.

I looked into this already. There is existing federal legislation regarding rigging of sports contests and even game shows. However, this legislation requires elements of bribery and/or coercion. Where would be the bribery and/or coercion if a sports commissioner simply decided that the #1 pick going to one particular team was in the best business interests of his league?

Can we ask why the league would risk this becoming public and lose all credibility and semblance of fair competition? The NBA would lose 90% of fans if the commish just gave teams draft picks.

That's before we get to the idea that dozens, if not hundreds, of people would have known about this and never revealed it. Not even after getting fired or getting their team taken away or whatever... Really? Have you met people?

Sure. While we're at it though, we should also ask why the League would risk becoming public its internal review (or lack thereof) of its own referees following an FBI investigation which found that 90% of the League's referees acknowledged being involved in some type of gambling activity following an FBI sting operation that resulted in an NBA referee going to prison for taking bets on games. Not that that could result in a loss of all credibility and semblance of fair competition. The point being, of course, that this isn't the first time that shadowy goings on within the League offices have appeared more likely than not.

[Jester_]

Watch, if the Celtics have a down season next season because of Tatum and they have to shed salaries this summer, if they end up in the lottery, they could get AJ Dybantsa.

and now can you please explain to me why NBA executives would each risk 20 years in san quentin to do this?

The idea that anyone within the NBA would serve any time in prison for predetermining the outcome of a draft intrigues me. Why? Because, at first blush, the act of "rigging" a professional sports draft, while certainly likely to result in civil lawsuits and arbitration battles (stemming from violations of the CBA) doesn't appear to violate any federal or state crime. The affected parties, teams and players included, would have claims of fraud and misrepresentation. But, these are torts resulting in civil claims, the penalty for which is just payment of a monetary damage. I know of no federal code sections pertaining to the manner in which a professional sports league operates its draft the violation of which would result in criminal penalties. If you know otherwise, please feel free to offer the code section. Like I said, the idea intrigues me.

yeah i suppose it would be precedent setting if the nba draft rigging led to criminal charges. i think there's some argument under wire and/or securities fraud depending on the internal assurances and provable monetary harm to the other teams. but i guess it really depends on what guarantees the nba makes to teams through internal contracts and the collective bargaining agreement

on paper, if I purchase a franchise with the assurance from the league that the draft is a randomized process, and it turns out not to be, that feels like hard grounds to not result in something criminal

[vvoland]

I looked into this already. There is existing federal legislation regarding rigging of sports contests and even game shows. However, this legislation requires elements of bribery and/or coercion. Where would be the bribery and/or coercion if a sports commissioner simply decided that the #1 pick going to one particular team was in the best business interests of his league?

Can we ask why the league would risk this becoming public and lose all credibility and semblance of fair competition? The NBA would lose 90% of fans if the commish just gave teams draft picks.

That's before we get to the idea that dozens, if not hundreds, of people would have known about this and never revealed it. Not even after getting fired or getting their team taken away or whatever... Really? Have you met people?

Sure. While we're at it though, we should also ask why the League would risk becoming public its internal review (or lack thereof) of its own referees following an FBI investigation which found that 90% of the League's referees acknowledged being involved in some type of gambling activity following an FBI sting operation that resulted in an NBA referee going to prison for taking bets on games. Not that that could result in a loss of all credibility and semblance of fair competition. The point being, of course, that this isn't the first time that shadowy goings on within the League offices have appeared more likely than not.

I don't remember the 90% number and I read quite a bit about that investigation at the time. Yes, Stern shut down the investigation and donaghy wasn't the only one. I believe Foster was unnamed but implicated. But 90%? I'd want to see a source for that.

Also, that is a much smaller circle (the bookie and the ref, essentially) and it still got out, led to criminal charges, jail time, multiple books, documentaries, etc.

Obsessed fans and analytically driven gamblers caught on to donaghy before the FBI did. I just don't see how 50 years of rigging the lottery would stay quiet in this day and age.

Last point on this. Why would the league drive LeBron, ad, Zion, flagg to cle/no/no/dal while completely shutting out la, ny, and chi? I could buy Ewing to the Knicks, I guess. But the rest?

[Old_Blue]

Can we ask why the league would risk this becoming public and lose all credibility and semblance of fair competition? The NBA would lose 90% of fans if the commish just gave teams draft picks.

That's before we get to the idea that dozens, if not hundreds, of people would have known about this and never revealed it. Not even after getting fired or getting their team taken away or whatever... Really? Have you met people?

Sure. While we're at it though, we should also ask why the League would risk becoming public its internal review (or lack thereof) of its own referees following an FBI investigation which found that 90% of the League's referees acknowledged being involved in some type of gambling activity following an FBI sting operation that resulted in an NBA referee going to prison for taking bets on games. Not that that could result in a loss of all credibility and semblance of fair competition. The point being, of course, that this isn't the first time that shadowy goings on within the League offices have appeared more likely than not.

I don't remember the 90% number and I read quite a bit about that investigation at the time. Yes, Stern shut down the investigation and donaghy wasn't the only one. I believe Foster was unnamed but implicated. But 90%? I'd want to see a source for that.

Also, that is a much smaller circle (the bookie and the ref, essentially) and it still got out, led to criminal charges, jail time, multiple books, documentaries, etc.

Obsessed fans and analytically driven gamblers caught on to donaghy before the FBI did. I just don't see how 50 years of rigging the lottery would stay quiet in this day and age.

Last point on this. Why would the league drive LeBron, ad, Zion, flagg to cle/no/no/dal while completely shutting out la, ny, and chi? I could buy Ewing to the Knicks, I guess. But the rest?

You can read all about it (and watch the Netflix trailer) here...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2222902&p=101066323&hilit=gambling#p101066323

The 90% number is expressly referenced in the Netflix video (though not the trailer).

[wco81]

Last point on this. Why would the league drive LeBron, ad, Zion, flagg to cle/no/no/dal while completely shutting out la, ny, and chi? I could buy Ewing to the Knicks, I guess. But the rest?

Because the worst thing for the league would be contraction.

So they wanted to keep the small market teams viable at all costs.

The NY and LA teams were going to thrive for the most part, unless they had a prolonged period of being bottom feeders.

NO was on the verge of bankruptcy. Remember the league had to run it for a couple of seasons.


Otherwise, they would be like MLB, just the richest clubs having payrolls which are several times that of even mid market teams.


BTW Dallas is not a small market, it's top 10. I think it's bigger than the Bay Area market.

[vvoland]

Sure. While we're at it though, we should also ask why the League would risk becoming public its internal review (or lack thereof) of its own referees following an FBI investigation which found that 90% of the League's referees acknowledged being involved in some type of gambling activity following an FBI sting operation that resulted in an NBA referee going to prison for taking bets on games. Not that that could result in a loss of all credibility and semblance of fair competition. The point being, of course, that this isn't the first time that shadowy goings on within the League offices have appeared more likely than not.

I don't remember the 90% number and I read quite a bit about that investigation at the time. Yes, Stern shut down the investigation and donaghy wasn't the only one. I believe Foster was unnamed but implicated. But 90%? I'd want to see a source for that.

Also, that is a much smaller circle (the bookie and the ref, essentially) and it still got out, led to criminal charges, jail time, multiple books, documentaries, etc.

Obsessed fans and analytically driven gamblers caught on to donaghy before the FBI did. I just don't see how 50 years of rigging the lottery would stay quiet in this day and age.

Last point on this. Why would the league drive LeBron, ad, Zion, flagg to cle/no/no/dal while completely shutting out la, ny, and chi? I could buy Ewing to the Knicks, I guess. But the rest?

You can read all about it (and watch the Netflix trailer) here...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2222902&p=101066323&hilit=gambling#p101066323

The 90% number is expressly referenced in the Netflix video (though not the trailer).

The Philly area referee concentration I've heard but the 90% number is ambiguous. Does "some kind of betting activity" mean a March madness pool or blackjack in Vegas or does it mean fixing games like donaghy? I didn't watch the documentary so curious what that meant in context and where they got this numbers, if you remember.