Warriors have 2 Achilles' Heels: Klay & Wiseman

[SpreeChokeJob]

Agreed, the bench is the real problem. Klay may look rough at times, but we are still generally getting results when he is in the game. I'd be fine with him getting moved to the bench, but I'm also fine with him staying in the starting lineup and just playing slightly fewer minutes.

The problem is that we let our stellar bench of vets go, and the cupboard is empty. We need to make a trade for some bench guys. It is time to cash in future picks and a young guy that is not fitting in well. Wiseman would be a perfect tank commander, but we'll need to attach a pick to get someone decent back. The whole 2 timelines thing sounds great when you're winning and not really actually playing the young guys.

I watched 20+ Steph Curry-less seasons where we never made it past the 2nd round, Steph does not grow on trees. We have a top 10 all time player on our roster, it's time to live in the present and use assets to attempt to repeat/win in Steph's final high end seasons.

It’s nice to be a sentimental fan, but Lacob has to look at the future after Curry. They have to get their next unicorn otherwise the good times of luxury tax spending will come to an end. That’s why when Wenbanyama is staring an owner in the face I don’t think he will be at least tempted to buy some lottery tickets. If they secured a young legit first option through trade then the Curry years could continue, but otherwise their priority will be to find or develop the next superstar because that’s right choice to maintain the future of this team.

Did you know that last season the Warriors won the championship?

Just presenting things from an ownership perspective. Championships are what fans consider most important, but it’s only a piece in the entertainment business for an owner. It still is very much a business and everything is in consideration not just getting championships otherwise they would have resigned GP2 if the commitment to championships was the end all.

[cpower]

Klay is not good but he is far from the worse

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2023/on-off/

problem is Poole wiseman jamall,

Agreed, the bench is the real problem. Klay may look rough at times, but we are still generally getting results when he is in the game. I'd be fine with him getting moved to the bench, but I'm also fine with him staying in the starting lineup and just playing slightly fewer minutes.

The problem is that we let our stellar bench of vets go, and the cupboard is empty. We need to make a trade for some bench guys. It is time to cash in future picks and a young guy that is not fitting in well. Wiseman would be a perfect tank commander, but we'll need to attach a pick to get someone decent back. The whole 2 timelines thing sounds great when you're winning and not really actually playing the young guys.

I watched 20+ Steph Curry-less seasons where we never made it past the 2nd round, Steph does not grow on trees. We have a top 10 all time player on our roster, it's time to live in the present and use assets to attempt to repeat/win in Steph's final high end seasons.

It’s nice to be a sentimental fan, but Lacob has to look at the future after Curry. They have to get their next unicorn otherwise the good times of luxury tax spending will come to an end. That’s why when Wenbanyama is staring an owner in the face I don’t think he will be at least tempted to buy some lottery tickets. If they secured a young legit first option through trade then the Curry years could continue, but otherwise their priority will be to find or develop the next superstar because that’s right choice to maintain the future of this team.

the future is always to get a top 3 player in the league..if you dont have a top 3 player.. let it rinse and repeat.. wiseman kuminga will probably eventually become league average but why holding them and paying them to tank..

[Big J]

It’s idiotic to assume that Klay isn’t going to get better as the season goes on. His D in the finals last year was as good as ever.

[Upperclass]

Klay was an issue last year.. Steph just overcompensated.. By April.. klay will be a bench player, Wiseman will be benched or somewhere else, Poole will be starting.. Kuminga will be in Orlando and so on

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

We knew Wiseman was lacking experience. Lets see what Wiseman does with this situation. Lets see how fast Wiseman can learn and see how much of a winner's heart he has.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Klay was an issue last year.. Steph just overcompensated.. By April.. klay will be a bench player, Wiseman will be benched or somewhere else, Poole will be starting.. Kuminga will be in Orlando and so on

This is way early in the season. I am not worried about Klay having a shooters slump. Is lost mobility hurting Klay's shooting? I was more worried about lost mobility hurting Klay's defense.

[Impuniti]

Klay is not good but he is far from the worse

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2023/on-off/

problem is Poole wiseman jamall,

Agreed, the bench is the real problem. Klay may look rough at times, but we are still generally getting results when he is in the game. I'd be fine with him getting moved to the bench, but I'm also fine with him staying in the starting lineup and just playing slightly fewer minutes.

The problem is that we let our stellar bench of vets go, and the cupboard is empty. We need to make a trade for some bench guys. It is time to cash in future picks and a young guy that is not fitting in well. Wiseman would be a perfect tank commander, but we'll need to attach a pick to get someone decent back. The whole 2 timelines thing sounds great when you're winning and not really actually playing the young guys.

I watched 20+ Steph Curry-less seasons where we never made it past the 2nd round, Steph does not grow on trees. We have a top 10 all time player on our roster, it's time to live in the present and use assets to attempt to repeat/win in Steph's final high end seasons.

You're not getting the full story there. Klay plays with Steph and Draymond a lot, that's why his on/off numbers aren't horrible. He's been objectively bad this season. I agree that the bench has been really, really bad though.

Klay was an issue last year.. Steph just overcompensated.. By April.. klay will be a bench player, Wiseman will be benched or somewhere else, Poole will be starting.. Kuminga will be in Orlando and so on

This is way early in the season. I am not worried about Klay having a shooters slump. Is lost mobility hurting Klay's shooting? I was more worried about lost mobility hurting Klay's defense.

Klay has started slow on several seasons when it came to shooting, that's not even the big issue. His defense doesn't compensate for it anymore and he's jacking shots despite in poor shooting form even more than usual. If it was just him not making his shots, you could deal with it far better.

[Upperclass]

Klay is intent on proving hes the same player he was, similar to Westbrook. He also forced his way back in the lineup when he returned last year and the team went on a spiral. Some hard conversations will need to be had at some point, but its obvious this is a transiton year for the warriors.

[Impuniti]

Until coaching is cut throat enough to make the right decisions, I don't see things changing too much. Maybe .500 going forward not being a top seed. Not like this.

seems like an overreaction to me and not worthy of a thread. Klay just helped us win a title and was playing great defense by the end of the finals. He didn't play ball all summer and is just getting ramped up. Wiseman will either improve with reps or not and they can figure that out as the season goes on but the backup center is not why they are 3-5.

This is the least nuanced conversation and it's obnoxious so many fans reel onto this. Klay was bad for about 60% of the season, then he continued top play from bad, to mediocre, to good and also great. His form was all over all the place including the playoffs. But yes, lets remember his defense in the last 2-3 games of the season. That is what matters, not all the other games he played (or him bricking shot after shot trying to emulate G6 Klay in game 6 vs Boston).

The more annoying aspect about Klay is that his ego is put above the team. Steph came in a super sub during the playoffs not to immediately mess with the chemistry of the team. Klay missed 2 1/2 years and comes back when JP is having a great season. What happens, he immediately starts. You know Kerr is making these decisions to message his ego. Last game also showed the problem in the match, where he was just jacking terrible shot after terrible shot. This is while playing bad defense and being in poor shooting form. So why keep taking them? Got to get back to form, even if he forces things and hurts the team. **** the team, make sure you get back to what you think should be. That's important. The problem is most people don't want to address any of these issues because unlike Draymond, Klay is super likeable. Logic shouldn't even matter at this point, just look at the positives and put your head in the sand for the rest.

Another problem is that he's the 10th highest paid player in the league.

Wiseman and Klay are a problem is because both are really bad and both take up the starting and bench positions, so the team is always with a handicap. It doesn't mean that other players are also not stinking it up, but it adds up a lot when it happens every game where 1/2 if not both are having such a poor game that it affects both offense and defense.

Klay can get back to being far more useful though, once his he gets some strengths in those legs. But it's important that he accepts focusing more on defense instead of just jacking up horrible shots praying he gets hot. They should just lower Klay's minutes. That way he has more strength to play defense and get back up to speed within time. The only reason he's playing as much as he is is for Kerr to message his ego.

Wiseman on the other hand is just an abomination. Incredible physical skills on one of the dumbest basketball players in the league that's crazy score-thirsty and has no feel to the game. Him I have almost no faith in, but hopefully he proves me wrong. I know this team wouldn't sniff anything of relevance last postseason had he played.

[SpreeChokeJob]

Agreed, the bench is the real problem. Klay may look rough at times, but we are still generally getting results when he is in the game. I'd be fine with him getting moved to the bench, but I'm also fine with him staying in the starting lineup and just playing slightly fewer minutes.

The problem is that we let our stellar bench of vets go, and the cupboard is empty. We need to make a trade for some bench guys. It is time to cash in future picks and a young guy that is not fitting in well. Wiseman would be a perfect tank commander, but we'll need to attach a pick to get someone decent back. The whole 2 timelines thing sounds great when you're winning and not really actually playing the young guys.

I watched 20+ Steph Curry-less seasons where we never made it past the 2nd round, Steph does not grow on trees. We have a top 10 all time player on our roster, it's time to live in the present and use assets to attempt to repeat/win in Steph's final high end seasons.

It’s nice to be a sentimental fan, but Lacob has to look at the future after Curry. They have to get their next unicorn otherwise the good times of luxury tax spending will come to an end. That’s why when Wenbanyama is staring an owner in the face I don’t think he will be at least tempted to buy some lottery tickets. If they secured a young legit first option through trade then the Curry years could continue, but otherwise their priority will be to find or develop the next superstar because that’s right choice to maintain the future of this team.

the future is always to get a top 3 player in the league..if you dont have a top 3 player.. let it rinse and repeat.. wiseman kuminga will probably eventually become league average but why holding them and paying them to tank..

They are holding them because no one knows their potential yet and they could become trade pieces if a known star becomes available. If they are average, they they will be paid accordingly, but I don’t think neither of those two will accept it as well as Looney did. They will obviously shoot for a large deal.

[DonaldSanders]

Klay is not good but he is far from the worse

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2023/on-off/

problem is Poole wiseman jamall,

Agreed, the bench is the real problem. Klay may look rough at times, but we are still generally getting results when he is in the game. I'd be fine with him getting moved to the bench, but I'm also fine with him staying in the starting lineup and just playing slightly fewer minutes.

The problem is that we let our stellar bench of vets go, and the cupboard is empty. We need to make a trade for some bench guys. It is time to cash in future picks and a young guy that is not fitting in well. Wiseman would be a perfect tank commander, but we'll need to attach a pick to get someone decent back. The whole 2 timelines thing sounds great when you're winning and not really actually playing the young guys.

I watched 20+ Steph Curry-less seasons where we never made it past the 2nd round, Steph does not grow on trees. We have a top 10 all time player on our roster, it's time to live in the present and use assets to attempt to repeat/win in Steph's final high end seasons.

You're not getting the full story there. Klay plays with Steph and Draymond a lot, that's why his on/off numbers aren't horrible. He's been objectively bad this season. I agree that the bench has been really, really bad though.

Oh, I get that Klay isn't Classic Klay anymore. After our 40+pt blowout loss to the Grizzlies last postseason I started a thread suggesting we start Looney & Poole and sit Klay: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2191677 (it got 0 replies, lol). I would have suggested GPII had he not been injured.

Anyway my view of Klay's minutes is that in the playoffs we played him too much and GPII not enough, but it did not matter since it worked. However, keeping Klay in the starting lineup and allowing a great defensive player to come off the bench was a really solid move to balance the squad. To be fair to Klay, the team was a positive when he was on court (based on + - metrics) in the playoffs -- he just had subs that had a greater impact than he did. The problem is that we now no longer have that amazing bench that balances the squad.

We're going to need to make some kind of trade to improve the bench or we don't have a chance to repeat.

[whatisacenter]

Until coaching is cut throat enough to make the right decisions, I don't see things changing too much. Maybe .500 going forward not being a top seed. Not like this.

seems like an overreaction to me and not worthy of a thread. Klay just helped us win a title and was playing great defense by the end of the finals. He didn't play ball all summer and is just getting ramped up. Wiseman will either improve with reps or not and they can figure that out as the season goes on but the backup center is not why they are 3-5.

This is the least nuanced conversation and it's obnoxious so many fans reel onto this. Klay was bad for about 60% of the season, then he continued top play from bad, to mediocre, to good and also great. His form was all over all the place including the playoffs. But yes, lets remember his defense in the last 2-3 games of the season. That is what matters, not all the other games he played (or him bricking shot after shot trying to emulate G6 Klay in game 6 vs Boston).

The more annoying aspect about Klay is that his ego is put above the team. Steph came in a super sub during the playoffs not to immediately mess with the chemistry of the team. Klay missed 2 1/2 years and comes back when JP is having a great season. What happens, he immediately starts. You know Kerr is making these decisions to message his ego. Last game also showed the problem in the match, where he was just jacking terrible shot after terrible shot. This is while playing bad defense and being in poor shooting form. So why keep taking them? Got to get back to form, even if he forces things and hurts the team. **** the team, make sure you get back to what you think should be. That's important. The problem is most people don't want to address any of these issues because unlike Draymond, Klay is super likeable. Logic shouldn't even matter at this point, just look at the positives and put your head in the sand for the rest.

Another problem is that he's the 10th highest paid player in the league.

Wiseman and Klay are a problem is because both are really bad and both take up the starting and bench positions, so the team is always with a handicap. It doesn't mean that other players are also not stinking it up, but it adds up a lot when it happens every game where 1/2 if not both are having such a poor game that it affects both offense and defense.

Klay can get back to being far more useful though, once his he gets some strengths in those legs. But it's important that he accepts focusing more on defense instead of just jacking up horrible shots praying he gets hot. They should just lower Klay's minutes. That way he has more strength to play defense and get back up to speed within time. The only reason he's playing as much as he is is for Kerr to message his ego.

Wiseman on the other hand is just an abomination. Incredible physical skills on one of the dumbest basketball players in the league that's crazy score-thirsty and has no feel to the game. Him I have almost no faith in, but hopefully he proves me wrong. I know this team wouldn't sniff anything of relevance last postseason had he played.

Lacks nuance and is obnoxious because I don’t agree with you?

My money is on Klay and Wiseman being better in 20 games and that the growing pains will be worth it.

I find the chicken little overreactions obnoxious and lacking nuance so we are even.

[clyde21]

seems like an overreaction to me and not worthy of a thread. Klay just helped us win a title and was playing great defense by the end of the finals. He didn't play ball all summer and is just getting ramped up. Wiseman will either improve with reps or not and they can figure that out as the season goes on but the backup center is not why they are 3-5.

i don't want to speak for the OP but I think his point about Klay is that he (and the team) need to realize he's not the same dude anymore, and his role needs to be adjusted accordingly.

dont think this is earth shattering stuff and pretty obvious at this point.

Last season fans were clamoring for Klay to get benched as well and he ended up being major positive, especially defensively, in the final close out games in the finals. To say it's pretty obvious that he isn't the same dude this early in the season when he is on record saying he couldn't play pickup ball during the summer doesn't ring true to me unless you are talking about him ever getting back to 2019 standards.

in what way was Klay a 'major positive' in the POs last season?

in the POs he had a -4 net rating and was 9th on the team in On/Off with a whopping -11.7.

now im not gonna fault him for that considering he was coming back from injury but the idea that he was a 'major positive' is just flat out untrue.

[ClutchUp]

Unless Wiseman is the floor with Draymond I really don't know how you mask his limitations defensively.

[clyde21]

people still don't realize the carry job that Steph pulled last year...he essentially won the ring with Loon and Wiggy being his other two best players.

Dray was largely disasterous in the POs, Klay wasn't good at all, JP had a couple of scoring outbursts but that's about it...we won because of Steph, Loon, Wiggy and a some solid performances from Gp2 and Otto (esp on the boards).

Klay had nothing to do with it and by almost every metric he was actually a liability during the POs last yr.

[and1GS]

Steph was a huge part of it, but it is still a team sport.

We won a title with mostly the same team last year so it's hard to agree that most of our players are broken beyond repair.

[Sam Lowry Jr]

Read on Twitter

Best net rating too. By a lot. Should we considering closing with this lineup (with Loon instead of Poole) at some point?

[HiRez]

Read on Twitter

Best net rating too. By a lot. Should we considering closing with this lineup (with Loon instead of Poole) at some point?

Yes! If they're good enough to start, they should be good enough to close. You start and close with your best, it's pretty simple, and I don't know why they wouldn't do that.

[Big J]

people still don't realize the carry job that Steph pulled last year...he essentially won the ring with Loon and Wiggy being his other two best players.

Dray was largely disasterous in the POs, Klay wasn't good at all, JP had a couple of scoring outbursts but that's about it...we won because of Steph, Loon, Wiggy and a some solid performances from Gp2 and Otto (esp on the boards).

Klay had nothing to do with it and by almost every metric he was actually a liability during the POs last yr.

Klay was a beast on D in the finals. He was shutting Tatum down every single time he was matched up against him.

[and1GS]

Yeah but the Finals aren't important. What was he doing for us in game 73?